Job before 1L Forum

[HopeyDopey]

I will be attending law school in the fall and I am very excited. I took a gap year in between undergrad and law school to give myself plenty of time to study the LSAT and give myself a break. It was my hope that after taking the LSAT in December that I would find some simple customer service job and make some beer money while I get ready for law school.

Now it's May. I've applied for, or inquired in person about probably +40 jobs (most of them being low skilled customer service positions) and I've come up with nothing. A few jobs have offered me employment but I had to turn them down (I had to move out of a bad home environment from one of my parents).

I feel like the moment it is discovered that I'm leaving for law school in a few months, most people won't hire me. I'm becoming concerned that it might look bad that I didn't have a job for my gap year and it could permanently effect future employment opportunities. Will it?

What else could I do over the summer if I can't find a job?

[judgefriendlyhand]

What else could I do over the summer if I can't find a job?

Party and get laid, you should not worry about having a gap in your resume prior to law school.

[TheSpanishMain]

"Gap year" is a dumb term. It should be like 2-3 years at minimum.

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

[HopeyDopey]

@judgefriendlyhand: my concern is that I will have had a year long gap in my resume assuming I don't get a job in May. Then it would only be an 8 month gap :/.

@TheSpanishMain: I appreciate the advice, but I'm going to a good school and I will graduate with relatively little debt. It's not the T14 full scholarship ideal, but I'm not superman. Also, I'm curious about summer job ideas, or an honest assessment of having a low-level customer service position and if it would negatively affect future job opportunities for summer internships in law school. Any ideas?

[pppp]

Just don't tell them you're going to law school in 3 months. Say I'm thinking about law school in the future. Then give 2 weeks notice in August. Nobody will care, people come and go in those jobs all the time.

[ballouttacontrol]

Just don't tell them you're going to law school in 3 months. Say I'm thinking about law school in the future. Then give 2 weeks notice in August. Nobody will care, people come and go in those jobs all the time.

This. I took an okay job in January before going to law school, after having sent all my apps out knowing full well I would most likely get into somewhere worth attending. I felt really bad for a while thinking I was gonna fuck over my boss and stuff, but when i gave my notice she couldn't have been happier for me. And even if not, who cares? Get the experience, get the $. Do yourself a favor and quit at least like a month or so before law school orientation so you get a nice vacation before grinding the next 9 months or so

[BmoreOrLess]

Just don't tell them you're going to law school in 3 months. Say I'm thinking about law school in the future. Then give 2 weeks notice in August. Nobody will care, people come and go in those jobs all the time.

If you're absolutely going to go, this, but I'm going to echo SpanishMain. Your gap year is probably going to hurt you more than a straight K-JD because it is in fact a huge gap on your resume. If your goal is firm work, and unless you're going to a t14 where you have a little wiggle room on grades, I'd definitely suggest getting real professional experience for at least a year. Those are the types of things that help people who aren't 'superman' land firm gigs.

[jnwa]

"Gap year" is a dumb term. It should be like 2-3 years at minimum.

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

Mini hijack here...how much does the lack of post grad w/e hurt during OCI? I'm a URM taking a named t14 full ride but k-jd. Most substantial work experience was a summer as a business analyst and an LSAT tutoring gig.

[TheSpanishMain]

@TheSpanishMain: I appreciate the advice, but I'm going to a good school and I will graduate with relatively little debt. It's not the T14 full scholarship ideal, but I'm not superman. Also, I'm curious about summer job ideas, or an honest assessment of having a low-level customer service position and if it would negatively affect future job opportunities for summer internships in law school. Any ideas?

Fair enough, depending on what "relatively little" means. It also depends on your goals. Like Bmore said, if you want to work at a large firm, you're really starting off at a disadvantage. I go to Georgetown and have very average grades, and having had substantial professional work experience before law school was a HUGE help at OCI.

As for summer jobs, nothing you do for three months is really going to help or hurt you unless it's like selling crack or something. You're not going to lose any opportunities you might have otherwise had because you worked a low level customer service job before school.

"Gap year" is a dumb term. It should be like 2-3 years at minimum.

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

Mini hijack here...how much does the lack of post grad w/e hurt during OCI? I'm a URM taking a named t14 full ride but k-jd. Most substantial work experience was a summer as a business analyst and an LSAT tutoring gig.

I think a URM at a T14 is probably fine unless abysmal grades/you're a straight up weirdo in interviews.

[ballouttacontrol]

"Gap year" is a dumb term. It should be like 2-3 years at minimum.

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

Mini hijack here...how much does the lack of post grad w/e hurt during OCI? I'm a URM taking a named t14 full ride but k-jd. Most substantial work experience was a summer as a business analyst and an LSAT tutoring gig.

agree with spanish man above

My take: obviously not all t14s are created equal, and also not all URMs get the same preferential recruitment. At my t14, (dont really know the rankings anymore, but maybe t6/t7?) the black students all seemed to have their pick of basically unlimited offers, even with grades well below median. The BALSA network seems incredible. Something like Asian on the other hand (is that a URM?) doesn't seem to really get a boost over whites.

I will say the only people I knew who struck out are the people that didn't bring really bring anything to the table other than the school name. By "something," I mean basically any one of: desirable URM, desirable work experience, veteran, desirable UG major, good grades (at my school, anything in the top third or so would mean almost all firms are within reach), demonstrable personal connection to a secondary market, etc. Any one of these things should be enough to ensure you'll get something, at least my school.

[umichman]

Those things all might help but honestly, a good personality is worth as much as any of it IME. I am a KJD, didnt even have an internship during undergrad (I had to take summer classes). I am a tiny bit above median and landed at a v10 for this summer. All those things will help, but hiring is very interesting adn I really think that if you are a good interviewer, you can get away with gap years (i know people who did this), middling grades, or whatever other "flaws" you might have in your resume.

Edit: I'm NOT saying that you should get bad grades, go to a bad school or not work. I'm just saying no one thing is going to be determination of you landing a firm job.

[ChinaCat]

What would you all say about someone who has a few years of nonprofessional work experience prior to law school? Would that make it really tough to get biglaw from a T6 school?

[umichman]

What would you all say about someone who has a few years of nonprofessional work experience prior to law school? Would that make it really tough to get biglaw from a T6 school?

no

[kellyfrost]

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

I respectfully disagree with this advice. Although there are some out there with this same opinion, it is an extremely misunderstood position. In fact, if there were any merit to it, the ABA would probably enforce some kind of rule for ABA accreditation where before enrolling in law school you'd need 2 years of "real professional" experience. Not only would that be difficult to enforce, it would be irrational. It would be like the NFL rule requiring players to be 3 years removed from high school before entering the draft.

Would working at Enterprise Car Rental qualify as professional experience? What about managing a Dave & Busters? Being a school teacher? Insurance claims adjuster? Farm laborer? How would 2-3 years of professional experience help someone who has never picked up a law text book, taken a law school exam, or done any legal writing?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Work experience helps because it shows employers that you've been a grown up and know what it's like to work a 9-5 job and probably can handle a little responsibility. It also gives you something to talk about in interviews beyond "so which law school class is your favorite?" The ABA doesn't care because this isn't about getting into / excelling at law school, this is advice about best positioning yourself to get a job once you're there. And of course k-JDs go to law school and get jobs all the time, but since this site is all about maximizing outcomes, people suggest getting work experience first.

(Personally I'm glad I wasn't trying to figure out how to be a lawyer at the same time I was figuring out what it's like to work full time, but I'm at one extreme end of the "previous work experience" spectrum.)

[dabigchina]

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

I respectfully disagree with this advice. Although there are some out there with this same opinion, it is an extremely misunderstood position. In fact, if there were any merit to it, the ABA would probably enforce some kind of rule for ABA accreditation where before enrolling in law school you'd need 2 years of "real professional" experience. Not only would that be difficult to enforce, it would be irrational. It would be like the NFL rule requiring players to be 3 years removed from high school before entering the draft.

Would working at Enterprise Car Rental qualify as professional experience? What about managing a Dave & Busters? Being a school teacher? Insurance claims adjuster? Farm laborer? How would 2-3 years of professional experience help someone who has never picked up a law text book, taken a law school exam, or done any legal writing?

He's saying law schools should give more weight to professional experience in admissions like MBAs do. He's not engaging in statutory construction/interpretation.

[p1921]

It doesn't matter what you do this summer. I know a k-jd who worked the pro shop at a golf course before his 1L summer and had a lot of interviewers ask about it just out of curiousity. Kind of a good icebreaker.

[TheSpanishMain]

This probably won't matter if you're like a 175/4.0 going T14 on a full ride, but otherwise, don't go to law school with zero professional experience on your resume. And I mean real experience, not delivering pizza for beer money in college.

How would 2-3 years of professional experience help someone who has never picked up a law text book, taken a law school exam, or done any legal writing?

No one will have picked up a law text book, taken an exam, or done any legal writing before law school, so not sure what you're getting at here. Like Nony said, it's more about signalling maturity and experience navigating a professional environment than it is acquiring any particular skill. Plus it makes for a more interesting interview.

But yeah, I'm obviously not saying that k-jd's never succeed. Just that professional experience is pretty helpful.

[HopeyDopey]

I'm really glad this post has generated so many thoughtful replies and conversations about constructive things to do before law school.

But I want to make sure I have it correct:

1) Working a customer service job during your gap year isn't going to hurt your later prospects for employment including internship positions while in law school.

2) A gap in employment before law school (5-8 months) probably isn't going to destroy future opportunities either, assuming that at some point you do get a job (and maybe do a little volunteer work on the side).

[bretby]

I'm really glad this post has generated so many thoughtful replies and conversations about constructive things to do before law school.

But I want to make sure I have it correct:

1) Working a customer service job during your gap year isn't going to hurt your later prospects for employment including internship positions while in law school.

2) A gap in employment before law school (5-8 months) probably isn't going to destroy future opportunities either, assuming that at some point you do get a job (and maybe do a little volunteer work on the side).

Do you live in a reasonably sized city? If so, get yourself into a temp agency - varied experience and the money is pretty good.

[SFSpartan]

I'm really glad this post has generated so many thoughtful replies and conversations about constructive things to do before law school.

But I want to make sure I have it correct:

1) Working a customer service job during your gap year isn't going to hurt your later prospects for employment including internship positions while in law school.

2) A gap in employment before law school (5-8 months) probably isn't going to destroy future opportunities either, assuming that at some point you do get a job (and maybe do a little volunteer work on the side).

It's not going to destroy future opportunities in the sense that employers won't refuse to hire you because of the gap. But that's a pretty narrow view. Looking at it more broadly, you aren't doing yourself any favors by not having professional experience, and students with past professional experience have a greater chance of outperforming their numbers with professional experience. This is true of me and most of my friends - we generally got jobs at firms we really have no business being at because of either (i) a lot of professional experience before LS; or (ii) a particular job we had before LS, which was coveted by a particular firm.

The above is particularly true if you aren't at a school where you have a lot of leeway on grades (i.e. a school where you can get biglaw @ median). Based on your post history, it looks like you are considering BC, UH and, presumably, similar schools. These schools don't give you a lot of leeway on grades, so professional experience will help you at OCI. This can be true even if it's just a job for a couple months, but given you numbers, I would recommend giving up your hardheaded insistence on going to LS immediately and get a couple years of WE/retake the LSAT.

[TheSpanishMain]

It's not going to destroy future opportunities in the sense that employers won't refuse to hire you because of the gap. But that's a pretty narrow view. Looking at it more broadly, you aren't doing yourself any favors by not having professional experience,

This is a good encapsulation of what I was trying to get across. Lack of professional experience won't necessarily hurt you, but you're passing on something that could definitely help you. And if you're like 22, you really shouldn't be in a rush to go to law school.

[psu2016]

I'm really glad this post has generated so many thoughtful replies and conversations about constructive things to do before law school.

But I want to make sure I have it correct:

1) Working a customer service job during your gap year isn't going to hurt your later prospects for employment including internship positions while in law school.

2) A gap in employment before law school (5-8 months) probably isn't going to destroy future opportunities either, assuming that at some point you do get a job (and maybe do a little volunteer work on the side).

It's not going to destroy future opportunities in the sense that employers won't refuse to hire you because of the gap. But that's a pretty narrow view. Looking at it more broadly, you aren't doing yourself any favors by not having professional experience, and students with past professional experience have a greater chance of outperforming their numbers with professional experience. This is true of me and most of my friends - we generally got jobs at firms we really have no business being at because of either (i) a lot of professional experience before LS; or (ii) a particular job we had before LS, which was coveted by a particular firm.

The above is particularly true if you aren't at a school where you have a lot of leeway on grades (i.e. a school where you can get biglaw @ median). Based on your post history, it looks like you are considering BC, UH and, presumably, similar schools. These schools don't give you a lot of leeway on grades, so professional experience will help you at OCI. This can be true even if it's just a job for a couple months, but given you numbers, I would recommend giving up your hardheaded insistence on going to LS immediately and get a couple years of WE/retake the LSAT.

I'm not disagreeing that work experience will help you, but at schools like BC, UH, etc., big law employers typically set a grade cutoff below which they won't even look at your resume. Having work experience isn't going to get you in the door if it's otherwise closed based on your LS performance. Honestly, I think the hardest part about getting big law from one of those schools is getting the interview. At that point, your work experience may give you something else to talk about, but it's definitely not a deal-breaker not having it. The primary benefit of work experience is having professional references and a network.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Leaving aside any bonus with future employers, you can think of getting some kind of professional experience (or even just working full-time in general) as like taking time off to retake the LSAT - you're positioning yourself to do the best that you can in law school. I think when you're investing three years and potentially a lot of money (in opportunity costs if nothing else) in what you presumably intend to be a long-term career, it's incredibly helpful to have worked full time and have some idea about things like your preferences for working conditions, your work style, your strengths/weaknesses, what kind of people you prefer to work with, general expectations for professional work, etc. (you definitely get some of this through school but I would argue not to the same degree as actually working). I think that kind of knowledge helps you better take advantage of what law school has to offer, and better gauge what you actually want to get out of school.

I know a lot of people feel like putting time into some other job when you ultimately want to be a lawyer is a waste of time, and that they just want to get started on lawyering (and earning that money) as soon as possible. I get that, and it's not wrong, lots of people do that. But I think taking some time not to go to school and just work should be looked at in the same vein as taking more time to get a higher LSAT score - you're likely ultimately to end up in a better position.

[SFSpartan]

I'm really glad this post has generated so many thoughtful replies and conversations about constructive things to do before law school.

But I want to make sure I have it correct:

1) Working a customer service job during your gap year isn't going to hurt your later prospects for employment including internship positions while in law school.

2) A gap in employment before law school (5-8 months) probably isn't going to destroy future opportunities either, assuming that at some point you do get a job (and maybe do a little volunteer work on the side).

It's not going to destroy future opportunities in the sense that employers won't refuse to hire you because of the gap. But that's a pretty narrow view. Looking at it more broadly, you aren't doing yourself any favors by not having professional experience, and students with past professional experience have a greater chance of outperforming their numbers with professional experience. This is true of me and most of my friends - we generally got jobs at firms we really have no business being at because of either (i) a lot of professional experience before LS; or (ii) a particular job we had before LS, which was coveted by a particular firm.

The above is particularly true if you aren't at a school where you have a lot of leeway on grades (i.e. a school where you can get biglaw @ median). Based on your post history, it looks like you are considering BC, UH and, presumably, similar schools. These schools don't give you a lot of leeway on grades, so professional experience will help you at OCI. This can be true even if it's just a job for a couple months, but given you numbers, I would recommend giving up your hardheaded insistence on going to LS immediately and get a couple years of WE/retake the LSAT.

I'm not disagreeing that work experience will help you, but at schools like BC, UH, etc., big law employers typically set a grade cutoff below which they won't even look at your resume. Having work experience isn't going to get you in the door if it's otherwise closed based on your LS performance. Honestly, I think the hardest part about getting big law from one of those schools is getting the interview. At that point, your work experience may give you something else to talk about, but it's definitely not a deal-breaker not having it. The primary benefit of work experience is having professional references and a network.

I don't disagree with you (particularly in the sense that the toughest part of getting biglaw from BC/UH is getting the interview), but I do think that there is some leeway re: the cutoff for people with quite a lot of work experience. People at my school with more work experience tended to do better at OCI, and a few got biglaw even though they were outside of the Top 15% "cutoff" that biglaw firms tend to put on students from my school. These students got jobs related to their past professional experience, and were generally in the Top 25% (i.e. close to the cutoff), and I would bet that their firms hired them because of their experience.

Basically, lack of work experience won't hurt you in a narrow sense, but having work experience is a big plus and, when you have a lot of it, can be a big help re: getting jobs.