If you could go back in time and deal with loans Forum

[SD619]

Hey all. I'm a 0L most likely matriculating to UChicago in the fall. Thing is, my scholly is only 15k so I'll be paying essentially full sticker.

Assuming that you knew what you did now and were going graduate with 230k in debt, what Advice would you give to your former self to put yourself in the best position possible despite the shitty circumstances? Like are there ways of managing interest rates or certain tactics?

Please don't say things like "oh just don't practice law" or "oh you should've picked a lower school at full scholly" or "oh you're screwed because biglaw sucks". Even if it's true, I want to operate under the premise that there is no other option aside from paying the debt.

Thank you so much for the guidance and help.

[zot1]

Make your housing cost as low as possible. Live like a student (aka no fancy meals). Get good grades early on so you can try to get a 1L Summer SA. If you do get one, don't blow the money even though it'll be tempting. Use it towards your loans. Get an RA position for the academic years. Apply for scholarships--they are limited but they are available.

[SD619]

Make your housing cost as low as possible. Live like a student (aka no fancy meals). Get good grades early on so you can try to get a 1L Summer SA. If you do get one, don't blow the money even though it'll be tempting. Use it towards your loans. Get an RA position for the academic years. Apply for scholarships--they are limited but they are available.

Thank you so much. This is the kind of guidance I need

[emkay625]

All of what the poster said above.

It's tempting when you're an SA to blow through that money - buy lots of new suits, fancy dinners, etc. Resist the temptation to do this. Make a realistic summer budget and stick to it. Make it a goal to save a significant amount of your pay, and apply that to your loans (or your tuition, and reduce the amount you are taking out). I think 15K each summer (or even more) is a reasonable goal. Get cheap summer housing and live with roommates - you'll never be there any way except to sleep, so it does not need to be nice. Other than safety and being close to the office, don't worry about other stuff.

Try to find a good, flexible job during the school year that will allow you to take out lower amounts for cost of living. Since you're at U chicago, I'm sure your LSAT score is pretty great. Try to get a gig tutoring undergrads in the LSAT. I'm sure there are rich parents who will pay $40/hour for their kid to have a good tutor, and plus you could set your own hours. Or if you've got a car, drive for Uber or Lyft. Super flexible and if you drive at the right time (weekend nights) you can make about $30 an hour.

And definitely apply for outside scholarships. There are a ton, but most students are too lazy to do the work to seek them out an apply. Nearly every legal professional organization (local bar, state bar, women's bar, minority bar, pro bono groups, etc.) offer scholarships and writing competitions but only get a handful of applicants. Seek these out and apply.

[emkay625]

Want to add: avoid racking up other debt as well. It's tempting to max out credit cards when you're in law school. But now that I'm out, I'm kicking myself for doing it. It was easy to put a round of drinks or a new dress or a night out on my credit card and say to myself I'll pay it off once I start working. But when you're already staring down a ton of student loans, that 5-10K you've got in credit card debt isn't so little any more.

I had a friend in law school who only took out cost of living loans to pay his rent, cell phone bill, car insurance, and health insurance each month. For the rest of stuff (gas, groceries, drinking money, clothes, electric bill) he drove for Uber two nights a week. He would only spend the next week what he had made from those two nights of driving. I wish I had done something similar.

[SD619]

Want to add: avoid racking up other debt as well. It's tempting to max out credit cards when you're in law school. But now that I'm out, I'm kicking myself for doing it. It was easy to put a round of drinks or a new dress or a night out on my credit card and say to myself I'll pay it off once I start working. But when you're already staring down a ton of student loans, that 5-10K you've got in credit card debt isn't so little any more.

I had a friend in law school who only took out cost of living loans to pay his rent, cell phone bill, car insurance, and health insurance each month. For the rest of stuff (gas, groceries, drinking money, clothes, electric bill) he drove for Uber two nights a week. He would only spend the next week what he had made from those two nights of driving. I wish I had done something similar.

This is great advice too. Thank you so much. I am really soaking all of this up and internalizing it.

Does anyone have more insight into RA positions with professors? Is the work load exorbitant to the point that my 1L grades would take a hit?

[BigZuck]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

On that note^, don't let yourself go, "eh, what's another couple hundred here or there on 200K." That's how 200ish --> 400ish. And don't compare it to a mortgage, because student loans are not comparable.

Also obligatory, are you suuuuure about law regardless of money???

[chicharon]

Well this devolved quickly.

[zot1]

The amount of RA work will depend on the professor so definitely do your research.

I RAed for 2.5 years for a very chill professor with flexible deadlines and who allowed me to get as many hours as I wanted. Some weeks I worked 10 hours, some I worked 20. It depended on basically how busy I was with other stuff.

Most professors are flexible.

However, I did hear about one story on the extreme where this one professor would give biglaw type of assignments (email at 5pm asking for assignment to be returned to him by 8am). I felt very sorry for the student in question because she was so stressed out working for him. I believe she only did it one semester.

[zot1]

The amount of RA work will depend on the professor so definitely do your research.

I RAed for 2.5 years for a very chill professor with flexible deadlines and who allowed me to get as many hours as I wanted. Some weeks I worked 10 hours, some I worked 20. It depended on basically how busy I was with other stuff.

Most professors are flexible.

However, I did hear about one story on the extreme where this one professor would give biglaw type of assignments (email at 5pm asking for assignment to be returned to him by 8am). I felt very sorry for the student in question because she was so stressed out working for him. I believe she only did it one semester.

You trust fund babies are soooo lucky...

[emkay625]

Want to add: avoid racking up other debt as well. It's tempting to max out credit cards when you're in law school. But now that I'm out, I'm kicking myself for doing it. It was easy to put a round of drinks or a new dress or a night out on my credit card and say to myself I'll pay it off once I start working. But when you're already staring down a ton of student loans, that 5-10K you've got in credit card debt isn't so little any more.

I had a friend in law school who only took out cost of living loans to pay his rent, cell phone bill, car insurance, and health insurance each month. For the rest of stuff (gas, groceries, drinking money, clothes, electric bill) he drove for Uber two nights a week. He would only spend the next week what he had made from those two nights of driving. I wish I had done something similar.

This is great advice too. Thank you so much. I am really soaking all of this up and internalizing it.

Does anyone have more insight into RA positions with professors? Is the work load exorbitant to the point that my 1L grades would take a hit?

depends on the prof. and lots don't hire 1Ls, so no guarantee you'll get one.

[SD619]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

[Desert Fox]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

None of this is worth it. You are going to have 300k in a debt in November of 2020. Even if you get biglaw and live like a pauper, you'll have a negative net worth until 2024-2026. You probably won't be debt free until 2028, and that's if you are living like a student.

That's ten years for working your ass off just to get back to zero.

[SD619]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

None of this is worth it. You are going to have 300k in a debt in November of 2020. Even if you get biglaw and live like a pauper, you'll have a negative net worth until 2024-2026. You probably won't be debt free until 2028, and that's if you are living like a student.

That's ten years for working your ass off just to get back to zero.

I want to be really clear that I live in what 99% of tls would consider the slums and I grew up in (and currently live in) what 100% of tls would consider a pauper's life.

I am not pursuing law for the money exclusively, although I know it's important to consider. I want to live a comfortable life but my passion and heart is in law. I would go straight into public sector work and pursue LRAP but I have a desire to eventually work in the private sector and want to keep my options broad. Perhaps DA work would be best, for my circumstance, but I find it tough to commit to PI outright because I don't know too much about it.

I need advice and I am humbly ignorant about so much regarding this whole thing- I have a dad who's illiterate and neither of my folks went to college. I have 0 debt from undergrad. I want to work in the community eventually (southeast San Diego) but don't want to be indebted to one segment of work (ie public interest) otherwise I would've joined the Air Force and had them take care of law school. Again perhaps my ignorance is showing in the way I'm even phrasing this, but I owe much of my life's survival to good advice and help from people who know more than me and are in better situations (even tho people on TLS can be painfully blunt sometimes, I wouldn't have gotten into Chicago without TLS)

Some standards of a poor investment may be different from my own- it's tough to explain that to people on TLS. My pops worked 12+hour days in a factory which seems a lot shittier than biglaw if I can be blunt.

I want purpose and direction in my life and education is invaluable to me and since tech or engineering was never an option I poured all of my energy into writing, reading and public speaking. These skills were basically free for me to develop thus far.


Sorry if that was too extensive. I just really want to add context. In another life I'm sure I would think my current position is absurd.

[BigZuck]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

I think you need to give a lot more thought to the fact that you might be, in the immortal words of the immortal (RIP) Mr. Pancakes "disqualified" by virtue of your low GPA. That's totally fine, nothing wrong with that, it's just one career. 250K+ debt is just so, so much, even if you can scrimp and claw your way to making it "only" 200K by doing all the things suggested ITT it's not even worth it IMO.

Listen to Desert Fox, he knows what he's talking about.

If you had a burning desire to be a lawyer (not necessarily big law) then honestly I would take a full ride at WUSTL over a 45K scholarship at Chicago.

[BigZuck]

I'm sure people will be along to tell you to ignore the hive and follow your dreams and invest in yourself soon enough though

[Paul Campos]

Going to a T-14 at or near sticker (is that $15K total or per year?) if you're not aiming for prestige legal jobs is a horrible idea, given the alternatives, i.e., a full ride at a respectable school.

[SD619]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

I think you need to give a lot more thought to the fact that you might be, in the immortal words of the immortal (RIP) Mr. Pancakes "disqualified" by virtue of your low GPA. That's totally fine, nothing wrong with that, it's just one career. 250K+ debt is just so, so much, even if you can scrimp and claw your way to making it "only" 200K by doing all the things suggested ITT it's not even worth it IMO.

Listen to Desert Fox, he knows what he's talking about.

If you had a burning desire to be a lawyer (not necessarily big law) then honestly I would take a full ride at WUSTL over a 45K scholarship at Chicago.

Thank you for the reply and I need to hear every reality no matter how much it stings sometimes. Please read my above post if possible. I want to take advice from those who are "ahead of me in time" and have seen how similar positions to mine have played out. I got a full ride to Wash U and withdrew. Also got near full to Emory and Vandy and also withdrew.


Do you mean in terms of my position in Chicagos class? Like I would get median pwned (except median would be more like bottom 25%?).

I can't categorically disprove that but I learned how school works after 4 years and tons of advice. My UGPA suffered because of culture shock and being a full time athlete (football player). I've since learned how college works, from academic advisors and I'm confident that I will study for 22 hours a day to prevent myself from having to go back to live in southeast forever. It's important not to underestimate the importance that a fear of failure can play in academic success. I hate being so dramatic but I'm desperate to convey my entire situation so as to receive the best advice.

[Desert Fox]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

None of this is worth it. You are going to have 300k in a debt in November of 2020. Even if you get biglaw and live like a pauper, you'll have a negative net worth until 2024-2026. You probably won't be debt free until 2028, and that's if you are living like a student.

That's ten years for working your ass off just to get back to zero.

I want to be really clear that I live in what 99% of tls would consider the slums and I grew up in (and currently live in) what 100% of tls would consider a pauper's life.

I am not pursuing law for the money exclusively, although I know it's important to consider. I want to live a comfortable life but my passion and heart is in law. I would go straight into public sector work and pursue LRAP but I have a desire to eventually work in the private sector and want to keep my options broad. Perhaps DA work would be best, for my circumstance, but I find it tough to commit to PI outright because I don't know too much about it.

I need advice and I am humbly ignorant about so much regarding this whole thing- I have a dad who's illiterate and neither of my folks went to college. I have 0 debt from undergrad. I want to work in the community eventually (southeast San Diego) but don't want to be indebted to one segment of work (ie public interest) otherwise I would've joined the Air Force and had them take care of law school. Again perhaps my ignorance is showing in the way I'm even phrasing this, but I owe much of my life's survival to good advice and help from people who know more than me and are in better situations (even tho people on TLS can be painfully blunt sometimes, I wouldn't have gotten into Chicago without TLS)

Some standards of a poor investment may be different from my own- it's tough to explain that to people on TLS. My pops worked 12+hour days in a factory which seems a lot shittier than biglaw if I can be blunt.

I want purpose and direction in my life and education is invaluable to me and since tech or engineering was never an option I poured all of my energy into writing, reading and public speaking. These skills were basically free for me to develop thus far.


Sorry if that was too extensive. I just really want to add context. In another life I'm sure I would think my current position is absurd.

The fact that you grew up poor and don't have expensive tastes is all the more reason to NOT go to law school. Just get a nice middle class job and enjoy life.

There is no"purpose and direction" in law. It's a boring and shitty profession. How is law your passion when you haven't done it?

If you really want to just live and breath the law, go find a school that will give you a full ride no matter how crappy it is. But you are about to borrow over a quarter million dollars just to study law. That is stupid. Trust me I did it myself.

[SD619]

I'm sure people will be along to tell you to ignore the hive and follow your dreams and invest in yourself soon enough though

Bigzuck, respectfully, your advice is the advice I seek. Too many times I've heard in my life that college is the answer to everything and that education is the mythical panacea for the working poor. It's clearly bollocks. I believe in myself and my abilities but Im a pragmatist and take in all information that I can. I want to make things as managable as possible.

[SD619]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

That's the thing. Living a splitter life can be tough. Closest comparably ranked school I got into was Berkeley with no cash so I withdrew. Georgetown didn't even give me cash, although maybe I will hear back since I was an alternate.

My closest jump would be UCLA with a half scholly. Idk.

None of this is worth it. You are going to have 300k in a debt in November of 2020. Even if you get biglaw and live like a pauper, you'll have a negative net worth until 2024-2026. You probably won't be debt free until 2028, and that's if you are living like a student.

That's ten years for working your ass off just to get back to zero.

I want to be really clear that I live in what 99% of tls would consider the slums and I grew up in (and currently live in) what 100% of tls would consider a pauper's life.

I am not pursuing law for the money exclusively, although I know it's important to consider. I want to live a comfortable life but my passion and heart is in law. I would go straight into public sector work and pursue LRAP but I have a desire to eventually work in the private sector and want to keep my options broad. Perhaps DA work would be best, for my circumstance, but I find it tough to commit to PI outright because I don't know too much about it.

I need advice and I am humbly ignorant about so much regarding this whole thing- I have a dad who's illiterate and neither of my folks went to college. I have 0 debt from undergrad. I want to work in the community eventually (southeast San Diego) but don't want to be indebted to one segment of work (ie public interest) otherwise I would've joined the Air Force and had them take care of law school. Again perhaps my ignorance is showing in the way I'm even phrasing this, but I owe much of my life's survival to good advice and help from people who know more than me and are in better situations (even tho people on TLS can be painfully blunt sometimes, I wouldn't have gotten into Chicago without TLS)

Some standards of a poor investment may be different from my own- it's tough to explain that to people on TLS. My pops worked 12+hour days in a factory which seems a lot shittier than biglaw if I can be blunt.

I want purpose and direction in my life and education is invaluable to me and since tech or engineering was never an option I poured all of my energy into writing, reading and public speaking. These skills were basically free for me to develop thus far.


Sorry if that was too extensive. I just really want to add context. In another life I'm sure I would think my current position is absurd.

The fact that you grew up poor and don't have expensive tastes is all the more reason to NOT go to law school. Just get a nice middle class job and enjoy life.

There is no"purpose and direction" in law. It's a boring and shitty profession. How is law your passion when you haven't done it?

If you really want to just live and breath the law, go find a school that will give you a full ride no matter how crappy it is. But you are about to borrow over a quarter million dollars just to study law. That is stupid. Trust me I did it myself.

I guess you're right. Again, I am pretty certain I want money and prestige even though I've never had it and I'm nowhere close.

Maybe this sounds absolutely ridiculous but I feel like law school (from an academically respected institution) and biglaw is a step toward getting my family to a different place and changing the course of history for my bloodline. Not trolling even though that might make me sound like an idealistic fool to say.

I'm not scared of debt or work because debt can't be much different from poverty, and work can't be worse than languishing indefinitely in a segment of society that has long since been abandoned.

This whole process is a culmination of my entire life. UChicago law to a person like me whose career options were limited to selling crack or working at a 7-11 (I'm big so maybe a bouncer at a strip club) is probably like some people winning the lottery. Part of me (the idealist) says I'd pay 1million for a UChicago JD because it means I made it in a weird way.

Disclaimer: I feel inauthentic because I usually don't dwell on how bad shit can be. I just want advice that takes into consideration my (possibly unique?) situation to TLS standards

[abl]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

I partially agree with this. I don't think that taking on second jobs in law school is a good idea for this exact reason. Sure, you might be able to make an additional $10-20k. But it's going to impact your performance, ability to participate in ECs, connections, etc. If you're really this debt adverse, it makes more sense just to go to somewhere like Duke with a bigger scholarship.

The flip side of this is that you've already decided (mostly decided?) to go to UChicago over some place like Duke with a $50k scholarship. This implies that you value the marginal increase in outcomes from Chicago over Duke (and other less tangible factors like geographical preferences) to a tune of >$50,000. If this is the case, don't give them up by working as an LSAT tutor in your free time, taking a 1L summer SA when you're looking to maximize your chances of crim law, etc.

All of that said, there's no reason to live a life of luxury in law school (and a lot of law students do). Don't budget to such extremes that it negatively impacts the time that you can devote to school. But you'll find that the difference between the life of the highest spending students and just kind of a normal life can be as much as $10,000/year. Every dollar you spend in law school on fancy meals out, fancy apartments, new suits, etc, is worth $1.5-2 in post-law school money. You're paying a huge premium in law school to not just live like a student, but live like a wealthy student. So long as you're happy budgeting and being frugal, there's really no reason not to try.

[PMan99]

There's a lot of stuff to respond to in this thread, but to me it's simple. You're either going into the law for money or you're not.

If you're going for the money, it's an awful investment and will not work unless you luck into some exceptional circumstances (both in terms of liking your job and having the ability to stick around).

If you're going because you love the law and want to do public interest, I'd pick up as large a scholarship as I could somewhere and not have to worry about ~250k hanging over my head. It's an incomprehensibly large number to someone in your position. Trust me, I was there, and I made the same choice. The only real option when you get that high is PAYE, which sort of mitigates it. But you're looking at essentially an additional 10% tax for half of your remaining working years. That's big. Either that or you lose your freedom trying to pursue LRAP/PSLF-eligible jobs, or scrambling to try to hang around in biglaw as long as possible. Thing is, at least on the latter front, you shouldn't really count on any more than 2 years in biglaw. Any projected repayment plan that relies on 5 years of biglaw salaries + bonuses is inherently flawed.

Of course it depends on how large the alternative scholarships are.

[SD619]

But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.

I partially agree with this. I don't think that taking on second jobs in law school is a good idea for this exact reason. Sure, you might be able to make an additional $10-20k. But it's going to impact your performance, ability to participate in ECs, connections, etc. If you're really this debt adverse, it makes more sense just to go to somewhere like Duke with a bigger scholarship.

The flip side of this is that you've already decided (mostly decided?) to go to UChicago over some place like Duke with a $50k scholarship. This implies that you value the marginal increase in outcomes from Chicago over Duke (and other less tangible factors like geographical preferences) to a tune of >$50,000. If this is the case, don't give them up by working as an LSAT tutor in your free time, taking a 1L summer SA when you're looking to maximize your chances of crim law, etc.

UChicago gave me 15k over 3 years (aka I'm paying full sticker.)
Georgetown is gonna tell me if I get a monetary offer at the end of this week. However, I also have the option of UCLA at 25k each year (75k total). Idk how I could ever justify choosing Georgetown over UCLA but Chicago will at least ensure (almost) that I get a job unless I'm one of the (2?) people who didn't get one last year.

Also what Do you mean by maximizing chances of criminal law? Do people opt for like clinics or externships during 1l summer? Sorry I'm so not-knowledgable about this yet. I'm reading voraciously. I'm just trying to settle the idea of debt and select my school and also realize idk what kind of law to practice.