Clerkships in Employment Numbers Forum

[GFox345]

Hey everyone, 0L bound for Michigan (the TTT in decline) this May. I have a general question about the rationale behind the inclusion of Federal Clerkships in the BL+FC numbers and the exclusion of State and Local Clerkships. I have heard many times and seen in my time working at a law firm that Federal Clerkships are a common stepping stone to BigLaw employment, but what about these State and Local Level Clerkships? Are they far less Prestigious, and what are the options available to the graduates that complete them? Are State and Local Level Clerkships themselves stepping stones to Biglaw, or do students that take these clerkships use them as a stepping stone to Federal Clerkships and then to Biglaw?

The heart of my question is this: why are Federal Clerkships included in the typical "favorable outcome" calculation for schools while State and Local Clerkships are not?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think the justification is that there's a lot more variation in outcome from state clerkships, and a much bigger range in benefits they bring. For instance, if you include state, that includes state trial-court clerkships, which vary HUGELY. They can be interesting jobs that give you a lot of exposure to trial and the local bar, but they can also be a kind of glorified judicial assistant position where you do more managing of the docket and paperwork than legal research and writing.

Also, firms treat state clerkships differently. Biglaw firms (usually) hold open a job offer/give bonuses to associates who come in from federal clerkships. Not all firms do this for state clerkships - I know a firm that would hold open a position for a SSC but not a state COA position; I think other firms offer bonuses for SSC on a case-by-case basis. That doesn't necessarily say much about the inherent value of the experience, but it's a proxy for prestige/exit options.

I went to a lower T1 in a desirable but fairly small secondary market, so my options/context is very different from yours, but people who clerked on the SSC were largely top students from the local schools, or good T14 students with ties, who wanted to work locally. Many of them did the traditional 2L SA --> biglaw offer, and put the offer on hold for a year to clerk. I know some people who didn't have an offer already and were able to parlay state SC and COA clerkships into (local) biglaw. State COA had some very good outcomes and some people who struggled to find something after - a lot will probably depend on your qualifications apart from the clerkship. Oh, and probably who your judge is, and what they can/will do to help you out.

I think the general feeling is that state clerkships are good for embedding you in a particular market, and maybe are slightly less portable than federal clerkships, but it's going to vary. Some state SCs are much more competitive and Preftigious. (I think Massachusetts? and Alaska, funnily enough, because they have so little established law, there are lots of interesting issues of first impression. But something like Nebraska is going to be great in Nebraska, but maybe not that influential for NYC biglaw.) So a federal clerkship tends to offer more options than state, but it will depend a lot on the person and their goals.

Though I do think state clerkships (COA/SSC at least) can be good stepping stones to federal clerkships - I know a bunch of people (me included) who've made that transition.

Something to keep in mind, though, is that there is some debate about how much a federal clerkship can burnish your credentials. One of the reasons federal clerkships get lumped with biglaw is that generally people who get federal clerkships (who are not me) have credentials that can also get them biglaw. If they missed biglaw the first time round for reasons like poor bidding or interview problems, a clerkship can give you another shot to try for jobs and you may be able to fix those issues. If you missed biglaw the first time around because you're not competitive for biglaw, it's not clear that a clerkship will radically improve your position (although it does give you an excellent opportunity to network and make connections and work the job market that way - the people I know who had the greatest improvement in outcomes excelled at this).

[GFox345]

Thanks a lot for the detailed response, Nony. That really helped me to understand it a bit better!

[usernotfound]

Depends on the State and the Court. I think generally Federal District Court clerkships are on par, or slightly more prestigious, with SSC's. Of course, this varies by state. If you're aiming for NYC Biglaw, SDNY clerkship with a respected judge is going to look much better than Montana Supreme Court. However, you can flip that and also say it's probably better to clerk for respected judge on NY Court of Appeals over a judge on the Kansas U.S. District Court. Very context driven and market specific.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Eh, there can be a lot of overlap, but I think most people who are into the prestige of these things are going to assume that a federal district court clerkship is more prestigious than a SSC clerkship, on the whole. Not saying this makes one a better or worse choice (you can't eat prestige or buy stuff with it), just addressing prestige in a vacuum.

[poptart123]

I'm curious if you have any opinion on state criminal court of appeals that are the criminal equivalent of the state's supreme court. Any insight as to the competitiveness or if federal/state agencies that prosecute care for these much?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I personally haven't worked in a state that has a separate criminal court (does any state do this besides Texas?), so I don't know anything specifically about them. Gut reaction is that I don't see why it would be regarded differently from a SSC in terms of prestige, and it would be great for state criminal work. But that's just me speculating.

[poptart123]

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[jbagelboy]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the fed clerkship %'s since they only capture what you're doing at the 9month after graduation mark, and an increasing number of clerks will be starting their positions after that demarcation

Re: state clerkships, to put it crassly, you can strike out at OCI and still probably get a state clerkship, whereas if you're qualified enough for an Article III clerkship then you would almost certainly be able to line up a summer associate position. When looking at employment numbers people are just looking for solid proxies for ability to enter biglaw. Which of course is hugely problematic at places like t6 schools where almost everyone who isn't doing biglaw turned it down to do something they deemed cooler instead, like doj honors, investment banking, or advocacy/public interest litigation. But 100+ firms and fed clerk are still the most reliable indicators we currently have.