Drop if below median? Forum

[eagle2a]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

[acr]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

I'm in the same boat, except at WUSTL

Currently top 25% (which isn't all that great) but if I regress toward median after this semester I'm bailing immediately

If you have no desire to be a lawyer then I see absolutely no reason to stay

Below-median lower T14 students struggle. I can't imagine below-median at SMU is any more of a comfortable place to be

[Clyde Frog]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

TL;DR

[sublime]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

TL;DR

If you're too lazy to read 4 medium-length sentences I'm not sure why you feel the need to advertise that.

[kellyfrost]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

TL;DR

If you're too lazy to read 4 medium-length sentences I'm not sure why you feel the need to advertise that.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[acr]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

I'm in the same boat, except at WUSTL

Currently top 25% (which isn't all that great) but if I regress toward median after this semester I'm bailing immediately

If you have no desire to be a lawyer then I see absolutely no reason to stay

Below-median lower T14 students struggle. I can't imagine below-median at SMU is any more of a comfortable place to be

Top quarter isn't a terrible place to be at WUSTL.

Weren't you like ~top 5% at WUSTL and almost missed the big law ship?

I would feel more confident if I were URM/IP secure/have relevant WE but I'm just a non-diverse KJD.

If I stay in the top 25 I'll probably stay but if I fall below top 25% I will be extremely worried

[sublime]

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[1styearlateral]

This is ridiculous. I graduated from a T120 at median and I am a first year at a midsized firm in NYC. Anyone who's having a difficult time finding a job at a T14 school needs to learn to network, IMO.

[A. Nony Mouse]

None of the people posting in this thread are at a T14, though.

[1styearlateral]

None of the people posting in this thread are at a T14, though.

Ok. I think my point was still made.

[Good Guy Gaud]

OP, I wouldn't drop. Keep hustling and something will come your way.

[acr]

This is ridiculous. I graduated from a T120 at median and I am a first year at a midsized firm in NYC. Anyone who's having a difficult time finding a job at a T14 school needs to learn to network, IMO.

Okay.

And this one friend I know taught himself how to code and can work remotely from wherever he wants making $110,000 per year.

How does your little anecdote change the average outcome for median students?

And no one here is at a T14, as was previously said. It's difficult to make up for being median pwned at a school like WUSTL or SMU by just "learning how to network," whatever that means.

Can you provide an example of this so called "networking" that will help median non-T14 students land jobs?

[Good Guy Gaud]

This is ridiculous. I graduated from a T120 at median and I am a first year at a midsized firm in NYC. Anyone who's having a difficult time finding a job at a T14 school needs to learn to network, IMO.

Okay.

And this one friend I know taught himself how to code and can work remotely from wherever he wants making $110,000 per year.

How does your little anecdote change the average outcome for median students?

And no one here is at a T14, as was previously said. It's difficult to make up for being median pwned at a school like WUSTL or SMU by just "learning how to network," whatever that means.

Can you provide an example of this so called "networking" that will help median non-T14 students land jobs?

I realize this wasn't directed towards me but hopefully this can help you/OP/whoever:

networking doesn't have to be that complicated. I spent like $50 to have however many personalized post card thingys created (that had my info on it: name, email and phone number) and just sent them to pretty much every local attorney in my area of interest. Never asked for a job and made it very clear that I just wanted to take them out for coffee or lunch to get a vibe for their experiences and what they did/didn't like in their practice. (I genuinely wanted to know more about the practice so I had good questions). Response rate was like 75%. The key, at least IMO, isn't finding someone that will give you a job but finding someone else who will know about job openings and will think of you, that eager law student who was friendly, when they see those openings. I was lucky enough (see anecdotal note below) to snag a super kush gig from this sort of effort and it has really paid off in practice so far because I now know a shit ton of attorneys who work in my field.

sure, this is also anecdotal and it won't work the same for everyone, but it's at least an example of what OP should consider before dropping out (and is more helpful than just saying "hey network you'll find a job")

e: sure, the post card thing is tacky but it is considerably more difficult to ignore than an email

[A. Nony Mouse]

I should make clear that I think networking is incredibly important and people at median outside the T14 aren't in any way shape or form doomed for life. It depends on your goals. If you were biglaw or bust, end up at median, and strike out at OCI, dropping out might be a reasonable choice. If you're not looking for biglaw, networking and getting experience are going to be much more important than grades, in most cases.

But people at T14s can legitimately struggle at getting a job, for lots of reasons. And once you're out of the T14 or so it really doesn't matter whether you're at a school ranked 60 or one ranked 120. So I'm not sure what purpose "I get a job at a 120" serves.

I'm not sure what the OP has done to try to get a job this summer and maybe there are things they can improve on. There's also still time. And gaud's advice about networking and how to approach it is really good. (You don't have to use a postcard if you don't want to but the basic ideas apply to everyone.)

[sublime]

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[1styearlateral]

And this one friend I know taught himself how to code and can work remotely from wherever he wants making $110,000 per year.

Living the dream. Good on him.

How does your little anecdote change the average outcome for median students?

Because grades literally aren't everything. There's school prestige/brand. If your school is relatively well known (unlike mine), you should at least have brand recognition. I firmly believe that HLS grads, for instance, even if graduating at the bottom of their class, have a better shot in NYC, for instance, than the person first in my class at my T120 school. I would have killed to be median at a T40 or T50 school.

And no one here is at a T14, as was previously said. It's difficult to make up for being median pwned at a school like WUSTL or SMU by just "learning how to network," whatever that means.

Can you provide an example of this so called "networking" that will help median non-T14 students land jobs?

Good Guy Gaud pretty much already spoke to this point, but I will elaborate.

Networking is easy when you have a huge network of alum in your market. Reach out via email (no one wants a hard copy letter or a phone call) and see if they want to grab lunch, coffee, a drink after work, etc. Yeah, people are busy. But when a grad from their alma mater reaches out, they're less likely to turn your offer down. At the very least, they'll try to meet you half way. Many times, I've straight up had alums email me back and say "Hey I'm busy this week, but let's have a phone conversation next week and see what we can do." Not everything is going to turn into a full time offer. In fact, most probably won't. But where the alum can't help you personally, he may want to hook you up with a friend or two that might be in a position to do so.

I've even straight cold-emailed partners at huge NYC firms basically saying "Hey, I'm interested in such-and-such, and I see you're a leader in your field. Can I swing by sometime when you're available and speak with you about it/your experiences?" I've been invited all over NYC to speak with partners from huge firms and in house attorneys at big corporations (think TV/media) because I wasn't emailing my resume out asking for a job. I was demonstrating that I was genuinely interested in the area of law and I wanted to do whatever I could to break out into the market.

Another example: As a law student, I was highly involved in my local bar community. I was involved in several lit and IP groups that got together every couple weeks, one of which gave me the opportunity to present on recent caselaw developments in front of dozens of other attorneys. As the only law student involved, I was not only recognizable thereafter but people were genuinely interested in hearing what I had to say because I wasn't just another attorney there for CLE credit. People notice stuff like that.

Also, speak with friends' family members. Several of my close friends from college had parents or uncles/aunts who were partners at firms I was interested in working at. Or, if you're in a position like me, you may have a friend (or friend's parent/family member) who is a CLIENT at the firm. There is literally no better way to land a job at a law firm than to have the CLIENT get you an interview. Partners and senior partners have great hiring power... but not more than the client. Partners will do pretty much whatever the client says, because whatever the firm is going to pay you is peanuts compared to what the client generates in revenue for the firm (when you review your first month's billing, you will understand this point).

Basically, there's tons of things you can do that do not require you to be top 10 percent in your class. Sure, those students generally do not have to job hunt. If you want to sit on your ass and have jobs thrown at you all OCI week, then study hard, get good grades, and go to a good school and rinse/repeat. But I know plenty of people in the top ten percent of my class who had no offers upon graduation; the market is tough for everyone. So, since there's a somewhat level playing field, the only thing that is going to help you find a job, and what is going to distinguish you from your peers, is your ability to network and socialize with practicing attorneys who spend 60+ hours a week typing on their computers or speaking on the phone with bank drones.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think you're overestimating the difference between T40 and T120, but the rest of that is really good advice.

[sublime]

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[1styearlateral]

And once you're out of the T14 or so it really doesn't matter whether you're at a school ranked 60 or one ranked 120.

I agree with this 100%. But there is a difference between a T60 and a T120 school in terms of brand, but this will depend on your market. If you went to Temple, you probably won't have any problems landing a job in Philly even though you didn't go to Penn. If a hiring partner is reviewing a prospective hire's resume and has to look up the school on Google, then you're probably at a disadvantage. I wouldn't be surprised if hiring departments over the years took one look at my resume and threw it in the garbage because they didn't even know where my school was located within the US.

"I got a job after graduating from a T120" gives hope that even those in the median at shit schools can land SA positions and get jobs in tough legal markets like NYC. Once you graduate, get your first job, and garner some experience, where you went to school and how well you did is much less important. I'm at a midlaw boutique now and am planning on lateraling to biglaw or similar soon. How might I do that, you ask? Networking...

[BasilHallward]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

If you entered law school not interested in BigLaw, then what has changed that would warrant a drop out? SMU doesn't place in the DOJ or the like. Are you just contemplating the pre-law school question of "Do I really want to do this lawyer shit?" during law school? Trust me, I visit that question more often than i'd like to admit. If you're from Dallas and you finish solid at SMU, and you said you have no debt, I see no problem with sticking it out.

[1styearlateral]

It was probably helpful that you went to school in your target market, it sounds like, and that target market is NYC. Networking becomes more difficult when it is remote, especially if you go to school in a small, insular, legal market like WUSTL.

I didn't. My school was located in a very secondary market far from NYC. My law school might as well have been on the moon in relation to NYC. Most people I've interacted with thus far in NYC (2 summers + post grad) have never even been to the area my school is located.

Networking in my law school's market helped me get internships and a judicial externship during law school, but it also helped me refine my networking abilities so that when I spent my two summers in NYC I had some experience networking already. Sure, I had to start all over from scratch my first summer, and I also had to spend time after work and on weekends at events/cocktail hours, etc. (it's hard work, really), but all of it paid off eventually. So instead of sitting there with sweaty palms, stuttering like a child, and enduring long awkward moments of silence, I could spend time talking about the things about the law and my job that interest me as well as other things outside work to really get a conversation flowing so that the person I'm pretty much networking with doesn't even know it. I have a huge stack of business cards back at my apartment from my second summer in NYC.

It helps if you can find at least one practicing attorney that is very well known and who can introduce you to people. I did research for and helped author some articles with an attorney outside my current market while I was in law school who I still keep in touch with pretty regularly today (I landed this by speaking with a college alum who summered at his firm while he was in law school). Whenever he's in NYC, he shoots me a text or an email and I'll meet him at his event; I don't even need to be formally invited because it's pretty much a "he's with me" type of deal. Rub elbows with important people, butter them up, collect your stack of business cards (think Anders Holmvik), and reach out to those people in a couple weeks or a month to maintain that connection. Maintaining your network is just as important as building it.

I believe that these skills transcend job hunting and building a book of business, but as a first year I have no clients and thus cannot speak to this point.

[1styearlateral]

networking doesn't have to be that complicated. I spent like $50 to have however many personalized post card thingys created (that had my info on it: name, email and phone number) and just sent them to pretty much every local attorney in my area of interest. Never asked for a job and made it very clear that I just wanted to take them out for coffee or lunch to get a vibe for their experiences and what they did/didn't like in their practice. (I genuinely wanted to know more about the practice so I had good questions). Response rate was like 75%. The key, at least IMO, isn't finding someone that will give you a job but finding someone else who will know about job openings and will think of you, that eager law student who was friendly, when they see those openings. I was lucky enough (see anecdotal note below) to snag a super kush gig from this sort of effort and it has really paid off in practice so far because I now know a shit ton of attorneys who work in my field.

sure, this is also anecdotal and it won't work the same for everyone, but it's at least an example of what OP should consider before dropping out (and is more helpful than just saying "hey network you'll find a job")

e: sure, the post card thing is tacky but it is considerably more difficult to ignore than an email

I realize that GGG experienced success with this postcard method, but I feel that I should echo what I said in a previous post.

Hard copy paper that comes in through the mail is very easily ignored or lost. If the partner you're snail mailing is anything like the senior partner I work for, your letter will be lost among two or three huge stacks of papers on his assistant's desk. Whenever I have something important for my boss to sign, I leave it on his chair. You're not going to have that opportunity. So, it's very likely that the person you're trying to reach out to won't even see your mailing as mail that is not work-related is generally saved for last.

If the partner you're trying to meet with is worth his or her weight in gold and not a relic, he or she will check their email 1,000 a day. Avoid emailing very early in the morning or very late at night. I generally chose 10 or 11 in the morning to avoid the general rush that comes with running a business/litigation department. I would mostly get replies around lunch (1 or 2 PM) or around 10 or 11 at night.

Lastly, you'll have to be flexible with meeting times. This is the hardest part, but no one said it was going to be easy. One time, I even took an extended lunch during my second summer to run uptown to meet with a partner during his lunch break from conducting OCI interviews. The interesting thing there was he spent a good deal of time venting to me how boring and unoriginal the T30 interviewees were. Really made me look good to be able to shoot the shit with him and to help break up his monotonous day.

[Clyde Frog]

I'm at SMU. I'm slightly below median right now and having a hard time finding anything for the summer. Obviously I'm going to try and get above median this semester but if I'm unable to do so, should I drop? I have no desire for big law nor will I have any debt at graduation but I don't want to waste money on a law degree if I'm not going to get a job as a lawyer

TL;DR

If you're too lazy to read 4 medium-length sentences I'm not sure why you feel the need to advertise that.

[Londonbear]

I would have killed to be median at a T40 or T50 school.

I don't know how much better it is to be median at T40 or T50 than top at T120. It's still pretty risky being median at bottom T-14.