So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[krads153]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

Didn't read the rest of this discussion, but biglaw in NYC isn't UMC lifestyle either...

so unless you're an i-banker, or whatever, or old money or have free family housing in NYC, I'm not sure how anyone can afford to have a UMC lifestyle with kids in NYC area. Personally, I don't know how people even raise kids in NYC - it's practically like child abuse given the conditions I've seen (kids sleep in the living room/closet, etc.). Daycare is like 3k a month (lol) and NYC public schools are trash for the most part.

This is all getting into really subjective factors totally dependent on personal values. There are plenty of people for whom the cultural options/diversity/etc of NYC are more important for their child-rearing than square foot of home. It's not child abuse to live in a small apartment with kids - maybe you want them to value something other than a big house with a lawn. I'm certainly not saying you have to raise kids in NYC but because you wouldn't doesn't make it bad.

eh...I think most people would agree that having your child sleep in the living room or closet is not ideal and has to do with what the parents can afford, and has very little to do with instilling ideals into children about materialism. There are lots of good places to raise kids and send them to decent public schools outside of NYC. I personally don't get why people raise kids here - public schools are trash, meaning you have to pay 50k a year for private school or move to oh-so-expensive Westchester. "Child" activities like organized play time, etc. are ridiculously expensive. Child care is 3k a month per child at an average daycare. Nannies cost like 70k a year. I don't see the benefit for the child. There are lots of good public school systems in other places and frankly, as a kid, I loved being outdoors/riding bikes/digging in dirt/ doing outdoorsy things.

Whenever I see a child here, I just feel bad for them - like they aren't getting the ultimate child experience. This is another reason why I'm planning on leaving NYC before starting family.

As for culture, I'm from California originally - some may argue there's just as much culture there. At least for a million flat, you can get an okay house with okay public schools and some outdoor space. Here a million buys you a one bed with no outdoor space and also expensive coop/condo fees on top of your mortgage.

[krads153]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

[jrass]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

A lot of people bill on the railroad. If you aren't doing work that requires a computer, it's really no harder to concentrate on the train than an NYC office during business hours. If you have a family it's dumb to live in NYC unless you can afford private school.

[krads153]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

A lot of people bill on the railroad. If you aren't doing work that requires a computer, it's really no harder to concentrate on the train than an NYC office during daylight hours.

99% of my work requires a computer....revising/drafting/etc. I can do it offline (not on network) but not ideal to be doing it while traveling.

[jrass]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

A lot of people bill on the railroad. If you aren't doing work that requires a computer, it's really no harder to concentrate on the train than an NYC office during daylight hours.

99% of my work requires a computer....revising/drafting/etc. I can do it offline (not on network) but not ideal to be doing it while traveling.

Yeah it's really not feasible until you're a midlevel. The glorified secretary work requires a computer.

[krads153]

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[krads153]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

A lot of people bill on the railroad. If you aren't doing work that requires a computer, it's really no harder to concentrate on the train than an NYC office during daylight hours.

99% of my work requires a computer....revising/drafting/etc. I can do it offline (not on network) but not ideal to be doing it while traveling.

Yeah it's really not feasible until you're a midlevel. The glorified secretary work requires a computer.

Eh, I think both do. In transactional, junior work requires a computer but midlevel is really doing all the drafting/revising of agreements.

I don't do hand markups either - don't get people who do. I also don't "plan" my work before hand - just get into the doc and go.

[jrass]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

A lot of people bill on the railroad. If you aren't doing work that requires a computer, it's really no harder to concentrate on the train than an NYC office during daylight hours.

99% of my work requires a computer....revising/drafting/etc. I can do it offline (not on network) but not ideal to be doing it while traveling.

Yeah it's really not feasible until you're a midlevel. The glorified secretary work requires a computer.

Eh, I'm a midlevel now and I do a lot of the revising/drafting now....

I don't really know what midlevels do, and come to think of it I don't know any who commuted, but I had assumed that was related to age of children. NYC pours more resources into the average high school student than the cost of 90% of colleges, but they have to dumb it down for the masses, which impedes development. Unless you're cool with your kid being an idiot, which isn't necessarily the worst thing, you have to do private school. If there were a law requiring all children to attend public school this would be a different story.

[A. Nony Mouse]

eh...I think most people would agree that having your child sleep in the living room or closet is not ideal and has to do with what the parents can afford, and has very little to do with instilling ideals into children about materialism. There are lots of good places to raise kids and send them to decent public schools outside of NYC. I personally don't get why people raise kids here - public schools are trash, meaning you have to pay 50k a year for private school or move to oh-so-expensive Westchester. "Child" activities like organized play time, etc. are ridiculously expensive. Child care is 3k a month per child at an average daycare. Nannies cost like 70k a year. I don't see the benefit for the child. There are lots of good public school systems in other places and frankly, as a kid, I loved being outdoors/riding bikes/digging in dirt/ doing outdoorsy things.

Whenever I see a child here, I just feel bad for them - like they aren't getting the ultimate child experience. This is another reason why I'm planning on leaving NYC before starting family.

As for culture, I'm from California originally - some may argue there's just as much culture there. At least for a million flat, you can get an okay house with okay public schools and some outdoor space. Here a million buys you a one bed with no outdoor space and also expensive coop/condo fees on top of your mortgage.

I get that it's not the kind of life you want and nothing says you have to raise your kid that way. It still boils down to personal preferences/values. There are lots of kids who grow up in NYC and they're not all somehow permanently damaged by that.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Associate salaries do not provide you with an UMC lifestyle in NYC. Yes, partners have UC lifestyle, but they also make 10 to 25 times more than associates....

Reasons why:
- COL keeps going through the roof in NYC. Rent alone has increased on average over 50% in the past 8 years in NYC. I see no end in sight in the near future with rent increases. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years the average one bed costs 5k while salaries stay stagnant. (Right now the average is around 3200 a month for a one bed in MFH.) At that point people will just cram 5 to an apartment or whatever.
- 45% of your income goes to taxes.
- You will likely only be able to afford to rent a 1 bed in MFH....nothing particularly ritzy, it just won't be in the ghetto.
- If you want a family, anything over 1 bedroom in MFH will cost you 6k or more....I don't see how a biglawyer could afford that (maybe if both spouses were in biglaw). You could commute from Jersey or far out in Brooklyn, but I doubt people want to commute 45 minutes to over 1 hour everyday if they didn't have to.
- Healthcare costs in biglaw are insane - it's like 400 bucks per person and for a family it may be 700-800 a month. If your spouse works, you should not use biglaw healthcare.
- With a solo biglaw salary you could not afford rent and afford to send your child to daycare - you simply couldn't, or you may be living paycheck to paycheck.

I don't know why we're arguing - an associate biglaw salary in NYC is clearly not UMC lifestyle . It gives you a very average lifestyle. And before you say "oh but the average salary in NYC is X" remember that the people who were born and raised here 40 years ago have rent-controlled or rent-stabilized apartments or own their own place already from 30 years ago, etc. and don't have to deal with COL increases like transplants do. The only people I know (aside from biglaw partners) who have UMC lifestyle in NYC are in finance/i-banking.

Also maybe my perspective is slightly different because pretty much everyone I know makes/has made more money than me (in my family and my friends in other professions)....and they don't for the most part live in NYC.

Going into the biglaw for the money is just plain stupid - if you want to become UMC/rich, don't go into law.

Well, rent has not increased 50% over 8 years in NYC; that's clearly an overstatement. And no associate is paying 45% in taxes. First years who live in NYC pay something like 35%. And you still make more significantly more than the average market-rate tenant in Manhattan (which is about $100k).

But the focus on living in MFH is misguided; the UMC life is the big house in the suburbs with a good school district. That's what Biglaw ---> in-house gets you, if things go well.

[jrass]

eh...I think most people would agree that having your child sleep in the living room or closet is not ideal and has to do with what the parents can afford, and has very little to do with instilling ideals into children about materialism. There are lots of good places to raise kids and send them to decent public schools outside of NYC. I personally don't get why people raise kids here - public schools are trash, meaning you have to pay 50k a year for private school or move to oh-so-expensive Westchester. "Child" activities like organized play time, etc. are ridiculously expensive. Child care is 3k a month per child at an average daycare. Nannies cost like 70k a year. I don't see the benefit for the child. There are lots of good public school systems in other places and frankly, as a kid, I loved being outdoors/riding bikes/digging in dirt/ doing outdoorsy things.

Whenever I see a child here, I just feel bad for them - like they aren't getting the ultimate child experience. This is another reason why I'm planning on leaving NYC before starting family.

As for culture, I'm from California originally - some may argue there's just as much culture there. At least for a million flat, you can get an okay house with okay public schools and some outdoor space. Here a million buys you a one bed with no outdoor space and also expensive coop/condo fees on top of your mortgage.

I get that it's not the kind of life you want and nothing says you have to raise your kid that way. It still boils down to personal preferences/values. There are lots of kids who grow up in NYC and they're not all somehow permanently damaged by that.

To be fair there's not really a middle class in NYC. The average household income makes it appear that there is, but it's a combination of a lot of working class households, and a few very wealthy households. There's nothing wrong with being working class, but it greatly disadvantages children. The greatest predictor of income isn't IQ, grades, talent, social skills, looks, etc. It's their parents' income. In NYC people earning $100k live more like the working class than wealthy people.

[A. Nony Mouse]

This is getting down the rabbit hole, but is the predictor income, or income controlled for COL and the like? Income is income is income, it's not the same as social class. Just because $100k doesn't buy as much in NYC as in Boise doesn't mean that parents making $100k raise their kids the same way as parents making $30k.

[krads153]

eh...I think most people would agree that having your child sleep in the living room or closet is not ideal and has to do with what the parents can afford, and has very little to do with instilling ideals into children about materialism. There are lots of good places to raise kids and send them to decent public schools outside of NYC. I personally don't get why people raise kids here - public schools are trash, meaning you have to pay 50k a year for private school or move to oh-so-expensive Westchester. "Child" activities like organized play time, etc. are ridiculously expensive. Child care is 3k a month per child at an average daycare. Nannies cost like 70k a year. I don't see the benefit for the child. There are lots of good public school systems in other places and frankly, as a kid, I loved being outdoors/riding bikes/digging in dirt/ doing outdoorsy things.

Whenever I see a child here, I just feel bad for them - like they aren't getting the ultimate child experience. This is another reason why I'm planning on leaving NYC before starting family.

As for culture, I'm from California originally - some may argue there's just as much culture there. At least for a million flat, you can get an okay house with okay public schools and some outdoor space. Here a million buys you a one bed with no outdoor space and also expensive coop/condo fees on top of your mortgage.

I get that it's not the kind of life you want and nothing says you have to raise your kid that way. It still boils down to personal preferences/values. There are lots of kids who grow up in NYC and they're not all somehow permanently damaged by that.

To be fair there's not really a middle class in NYC. The average household income makes it appear that there is, but it's a combination of a lot of working class households, and a few very wealthy households. There's nothing wrong with being working class, but it greatly disadvantages children. The greatest predictor of income isn't IQ, grades, talent, social skills, looks, etc. It's their parents' income. In NYC people earning $100k live more like the working class than wealthy people.

Ok, that's a fair point. Biglawyers generally live more like the "working class" rather than wealthy people as well (unless you're a partner).

[krads153]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I personally don't want to be commuting long ways in biglaw....I've done that before and living closer to work is awesome. Or better yet, just don't do biglaw in NYC with a family.

A lot of people bill on the railroad. If you aren't doing work that requires a computer, it's really no harder to concentrate on the train than an NYC office during daylight hours.

99% of my work requires a computer....revising/drafting/etc. I can do it offline (not on network) but not ideal to be doing it while traveling.

Yeah it's really not feasible until you're a midlevel. The glorified secretary work requires a computer.

Eh, I'm a midlevel now and I do a lot of the revising/drafting now....

I don't really know what midlevels do, and come to think of it I don't know any who commuted, but I had assumed that was related to age of children. NYC pours more resources into the average high school student than the cost of 90% of colleges, but they have to dumb it down for the masses, which impedes development. Unless you're cool with your kid being an idiot, which isn't necessarily the worst thing, you have to do private school. If there were a law requiring all children to attend public school this would be a different story.

Most midlevels I know don't have children....they tend to leave before then or take maternity leave and then leave immediately thereafter. But yeah, it's kind of amazing how much money people are willing to pay for private school though (I guess they have to if the public school system is trash) - costs about as much as law school per year. lol.

[Danger Zone]

eh...I think most people would agree that having your child sleep in the living room or closet is not ideal and has to do with what the parents can afford, and has very little to do with instilling ideals into children about materialism. There are lots of good places to raise kids and send them to decent public schools outside of NYC. I personally don't get why people raise kids here - public schools are trash, meaning you have to pay 50k a year for private school or move to oh-so-expensive Westchester. "Child" activities like organized play time, etc. are ridiculously expensive. Child care is 3k a month per child at an average daycare. Nannies cost like 70k a year. I don't see the benefit for the child. There are lots of good public school systems in other places and frankly, as a kid, I loved being outdoors/riding bikes/digging in dirt/ doing outdoorsy things.

Whenever I see a child here, I just feel bad for them - like they aren't getting the ultimate child experience. This is another reason why I'm planning on leaving NYC before starting family.

As for culture, I'm from California originally - some may argue there's just as much culture there. At least for a million flat, you can get an okay house with okay public schools and some outdoor space. Here a million buys you a one bed with no outdoor space and also expensive coop/condo fees on top of your mortgage.

I get that it's not the kind of life you want and nothing says you have to raise your kid that way. It still boils down to personal preferences/values. There are lots of kids who grow up in NYC and they're not all somehow permanently damaged by that.

To be fair there's not really a middle class in NYC. The average household income makes it appear that there is, but it's a combination of a lot of working class households, and a few very wealthy households. There's nothing wrong with being working class, but it greatly disadvantages children. The greatest predictor of income isn't IQ, grades, talent, social skills, looks, etc. It's their parents' income. In NYC people earning $100k live more like the working class than wealthy people.

Ok, that's a fair point. Biglawyers generally live more like the "working class" rather than wealthy people as well (unless you're a partner).

Lol oh come on

This forum always exaggerates this shit to the max

[krads153]

eh...I think most people would agree that having your child sleep in the living room or closet is not ideal and has to do with what the parents can afford, and has very little to do with instilling ideals into children about materialism. There are lots of good places to raise kids and send them to decent public schools outside of NYC. I personally don't get why people raise kids here - public schools are trash, meaning you have to pay 50k a year for private school or move to oh-so-expensive Westchester. "Child" activities like organized play time, etc. are ridiculously expensive. Child care is 3k a month per child at an average daycare. Nannies cost like 70k a year. I don't see the benefit for the child. There are lots of good public school systems in other places and frankly, as a kid, I loved being outdoors/riding bikes/digging in dirt/ doing outdoorsy things.

Whenever I see a child here, I just feel bad for them - like they aren't getting the ultimate child experience. This is another reason why I'm planning on leaving NYC before starting family.

As for culture, I'm from California originally - some may argue there's just as much culture there. At least for a million flat, you can get an okay house with okay public schools and some outdoor space. Here a million buys you a one bed with no outdoor space and also expensive coop/condo fees on top of your mortgage.

I get that it's not the kind of life you want and nothing says you have to raise your kid that way. It still boils down to personal preferences/values. There are lots of kids who grow up in NYC and they're not all somehow permanently damaged by that.

To be fair there's not really a middle class in NYC. The average household income makes it appear that there is, but it's a combination of a lot of working class households, and a few very wealthy households. There's nothing wrong with being working class, but it greatly disadvantages children. The greatest predictor of income isn't IQ, grades, talent, social skills, looks, etc. It's their parents' income. In NYC people earning $100k live more like the working class than wealthy people.

Ok, that's a fair point. Biglawyers generally live more like the "working class" rather than wealthy people as well (unless you're a partner).

Lol oh come on

This forum always exaggerates this shit to the max

Have you known wealthy people in NYC? They aren't living like biglaw associates....

[Danger Zone]

Wealthy and working class are worlds apart. Big law associates are in between.

[Tempo]

Or just don't live in NYC, maybe.

I've heard that most schools are more regional than people think, but top NYC schools (NYU/Columbia) can get you out of NYC right?

[Aeon]

NYC skews perceptions, because conspicuous consumption is such a key facet of the culture. Although COL and taxes (and, in many cases, loans) do take out a healthy chunk of income, BigLaw associates are certainly not living like the working class. They can afford to live in decent neighborhoods, even if in smaller accommodations than they'd have in other cities. They shop at organic markets. They drink their daily cup of coffee from the corner coffee shop. They go out to eat in nice places. They can take a taxi if needed without thinking twice. Of course, this pales in comparison to the UES financiers and top BigLaw partners, but by any reasonable measure, it's not a terrible lifestyle.

Of course, if you have a family to support, it's all quite different. In that case, it would be exceedingly difficult to maintain a similar lifestyle on an associate's salary.

[anonQs2019]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

It looks like we're getting into an area of having cake and eating it too.

Biglaw = great compensation miserable lifestyle
Any other job (outside of BegFed) = not enough money better lifestyle

I'm sure there are careers in-between these two extremes available to future JD grads. And experience in either extreme is going to depend on some tangible factors (debt, location, age, family) and some intangible factors (personality traits, workplace environment).

[rpupkin]

DA is gov and so are state/municipal legal departments. Don't look at "gov" placement and think "bigfed"

Right so my point is that those kids graduating from W&M and getting jobs with gov (outside of BigFed) all have jobs with reasonable hours, benefits, and although they might not start at 6 figures but they can get there within a few years right?

In NYC getting to six figures takes 7-10 years, and I would have to imagine it's one of the more favorable jurisdictions.

If you find that sufficient to buy a house in a good school district around here, go ahead, but the average person who wants a UMC lifestyle for their kids in a high COL area is gonna need more than that.

It looks like we're getting into an area of having cake and eating it too.

Biglaw = great compensation miserable lifestyle
Any other job (outside of BegFed) = not enough money better lifestyle

I'm sure there are careers in-between these two extremes available to future JD grads.

Sure, careers exist between those two extremes, but they're rarer than I think you realize. As you've probably seen mentioned elsewhere, salary distribution is increasingly bimodal for attorneys entering the market in recent times. The "extremes," as you call them, collectively represent the likely outcome for graduates.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Biglaw = great compensation miserable lifestyle
Any other job (outside of BegFed) = not enough money better lifestyle

I'm sure there are careers in-between these two extremes available to future JD grads.

The only entry-level long-term legal job paying more than $75k where you are not expected to work 60 hours a week that I know of is a law professor. There were a grand total of 70 hired last year. HTH

[Aeon]

Biglaw = great compensation miserable lifestyle
Any other job (outside of BegFed) = not enough money better lifestyle

I'm sure there are careers in-between these two extremes available to future JD grads.

The only entry-level long-term legal job paying more than $75k where you are not expected to work 60 hours a week that I know of is a law professor. There were a grand total of 70 hired last year. HTH

Strictly speaking, academic positions aren't entry level, since no one is hired straight out of law school.

[BernieTrump]

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[BernieTrump]

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