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WinterComing

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:07 pm

jbagelboy wrote:These are all people that came to my wedding, with two exceptions for people who were invited but couldn't make it. (And this is a modestly sized wedding). Your point is well taken, but I'm not talking about facebook friends, I'm talking about honest to god friends that I'm actually in touch with and have some sense of how they really feel about what they do.
I'm a 0L so I have no idea just how unhappy lawyers are. Maybe it is way worse than anything else. But I will say that I'm currently a journalist, which you mentioned, and most of my friends, even the ones whose weddings I attend, think I have the best job in the world. I occasionally get to interview famous people, and I sit in the press box at sporting events. Every now and then something I write gets a bunch of attention or wins a fancy-sounding award. Every new story allows me to throw myself into a totally different world, so that no two days are ever really the same. And it truly is a pretty great job in many respects.

But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.

I guess my point is that when I tell lawyers I want to be a lawyer, they often respond with disbelief because they've always wanted to be journalists. The grass is always greener, I suppose.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by s1m4 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:12 pm

Third, you are trapped in law. In 2016, with very few exceptions, once you go to law school you're never going to get a good non-law managerial or business position in any company ever again (unless you found a company). It doesn't matter if you majored in math. It doesn't matter if you spent 3 years at McKinsey before law school. You're fighting the view that corporate lawyers have no ability to deal with numbers, think strategically or do anything aside from being a scribe. Many times, that's not even unfair (see above, you are a scribe). Very few people overcome that prejudice, and nobody overcomes it to get a business job they couldn't have had out of undergrad. So if you're the lucky 2% that can make that move, you're taking a massive seniority cut and pay cut. The days of of the JD opening doors have been over for 30 years. 30+ years ago, the MBA wasn't the credential it is now (a good example is that anyone at SLS was automatically accepted into GSB without applying), and lawyers regularly became business people. Now there's a generation of MBAs running around, and you're not getting hired over any of them. I absolutely cannot stress enough how niche you become after just one day as a corporate lawyer. This is by far the worst thing.

Moreover -- you're trapped in a specialization within law that likely wasn't your first choice. Without outing my firm, most top firms these days are specializing their associates much, much earlier, as clients won't pay for worthless/generalist junior skill sets. Even a decade ago, you would get a few years to find your way to a specialty, and get to pick it. Now you're assigned one on day one in many firms. And within a year at the vast majority. Places do a good job at trying to match you, but if there's demand in capital markets, and you don't want to be a capital markets lawyer, tough. That's where they're putting you. And once you specialize, it's almost impossible to do something else, especially after a few years and you realize how much you hate it. You can go do the same specialty in house (maybe, in some specialties), or hang around until they kick you out, which they always do.

On that note: 100-200 people enter every year. 0-3 are made partner. It won't be you, unless you're both the best in your class and extremely lucky (someone needs to die or a big new client needs to come in, etc.). It's all for nothing. You become very good a very very niche job you can't do anywhere but in a law firm, and the only law firms that will have you will pay you progressively less for the same level of work.

Sixth, there's no stability, even for junior associates. It's been a long time since the 2008 crash. For those of you who don't remember, law firms fired (or rescinded offers) from thousand of law students and first/second year associates. Many of the junior associates who were fired never turned that around. I know a great/smart/hardworking guy, magna at Harvard, who was fired by Latham. He had to move to BFE to get any non-document-review job at all. It pays nothing and is a dead end. By the time the legal market recovered, the ship had sailed on his career and he was too senior to come in as a junior. Anecdotal, of course, but it happened a lot. We're poised for another crash in the next 0-3 years, and there's no taboo on law firms "right sizing" anymore.

You're reading this and thinking it won't be me. You think you'll do a few years and go after your true calling. You won't. Nobody does. People become broken (lost relationships with friends, family and spouses; alcoholism; depression -- law firms are very sad places), and flame out, generally into something as bad or worse. Print this off and stick it somewhere that you'll find it in five years. Or better yet, don't make the mistakes I did (and which I felt strongly enough to spend 30 minutes writing this at my desk here on a Sunday night).
I think its good to get this advice out in the ether so that less people go to law school thereby leading to a lower supply and higher demand for lawyers. Still, for my TLS people that have helped me so much throughout the whole process of applying to and securing my current job, I want to make it clear that its not all bad, and in fact, there is much good in the lawyer life.

Before law school I had a bs liberal arts degree and worked at a restaurant. I got admitted into a T-20 with some money (by utilizing the advice that I gained on this forum). My grades were not great, unfortunately, and I blew out on OCI. However, per the advice of the forum, I mass-mailed and mass-mailed and secured an SA at a small boutique transactional-nice practice firm. I'm still here. I make $100k (though, no bonus) and I work 9-7. My debt is manageable and I live in a nice apartment with my wife. My work is generally interesting and I meet smart business-oriented people and help them solve problems. I met my wife in law school - she was not able to get anything coming out of law school but networked and mass-mailed and recently, 1 year out, started out at $100k, 1800 billable hour req. She works in transactional and enjoys it. Yes, sometimes we sit infront of our computers in the evening and finish up some work or get back to clients, but end of the day - were sitting on our nice couch in our own nice place, pulling in $200k together (about $30k goes to debt servicing), and we are in our late twenties. Seriously, what more could I ask for from life? Especially coming out of the dead-end jobs that we both left to get here?

I think what made our job search effective was networking, cold-calling,hustling, following up, and e-mailing (all advice that I learned here). During 3L, I went to a networking event with my friend - he was outgoing and met many people - I was shy and spoke with just a few. The next day I told him that one of my connections from the other night replied to my e-mail saying that it was great to meet him, and offered to meet me for a coffee. He was taken aback because he never thought of sending follow-up e-mails... Ironically, my wife's firm says that they are drowning in work and are not able to find competent attorneys with 2-3 years experience. Why? Because nobody networks, and all of the resumes get stuck and filtered out at the HR department. If you look for work you must be humble, nice, and positive. Reading some responses here, I sense a lot of bitter people, and I fear that bitterness/condescending vibe sometimes leaks out in their interviews.

If you hate your job so much that you are contemplating suicide, WTF? If you make $160,000 plus a year, take a small break from paying back your loans and stash cash for 6 months to a year. After you have a nice fund, get fired and take your severence package - that is another 3 months of expenses for you right there. After that, the world is yours, here are some options (most people dont even have $5k in the bank saved for their emegency fund):

If you hate being a lawyer, take a $10k coding/programming boot camp and start interning - its not difficult to get internships / contract work paying at least $45-50k a year, and that will grow fast if you are smart and savy in networking.

- Start a PI/crim defense firm - this work is easy and you can build a book of business within a year or two allowing you to make $60-100k+ a year.

- Go work at a coffee shop.

- Apply for a regular job.

In the case that you have mortgages and/or expenses that prevent you from leaving your $160k salary, then that is simply bad financial planning. Downsize your life. Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Bogleheads-Guide- ... 0470067365 If you have student loans, IBR while you start fresh.

Many people here are very very smart, but find very clever ways to make themselves miserable. There is a whole world out there and a life to live, you are in a unique position to save a lot of f-u money, really, its not that bad out there.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by PMan99 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:16 pm

WinterComing wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:These are all people that came to my wedding, with two exceptions for people who were invited but couldn't make it. (And this is a modestly sized wedding). Your point is well taken, but I'm not talking about facebook friends, I'm talking about honest to god friends that I'm actually in touch with and have some sense of how they really feel about what they do.
I'm a 0L so I have no idea just how unhappy lawyers are.

But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
Outside of salary the above can and often does get written about biglaw.

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WinterComing

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:19 pm

PMan99 wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:These are all people that came to my wedding, with two exceptions for people who were invited but couldn't make it. (And this is a modestly sized wedding). Your point is well taken, but I'm not talking about facebook friends, I'm talking about honest to god friends that I'm actually in touch with and have some sense of how they really feel about what they do.
I'm a 0L so I have no idea just how unhappy lawyers are.

But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
Outside of salary the above can and often does get written about biglaw.
Sorry, I was not at all trying to make a comparison with Big Law. JBagelBoy said being a journalist was peachy. It's not. I was trying to correct the record on that one point. I have zero interest in ever working in Big Law, and this thread has only confirmed that.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by buckiguy_sucks » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:20 pm

tomwatts wrote: But my main point is that you know the reputations of firms before you ever set foot in the building if you've done adequate research. Biglaw firms are not interchangeable (at least not completely). Some are much more workaholic firms — and some have much more unhealthily competitive atmospheres — than others. There are places that I would never apply because I know the culture is weird. There are places that I would never apply because there is no amount of money that you could pay me to do that work for that much time each day. And most of these places I learned about with about a month's research before OCI. So it's not that hard to figure out some basic differences among firms.
Where do 1Ls do this research

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by jbagelboy » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:21 pm

WinterComing wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:These are all people that came to my wedding, with two exceptions for people who were invited but couldn't make it. (And this is a modestly sized wedding). Your point is well taken, but I'm not talking about facebook friends, I'm talking about honest to god friends that I'm actually in touch with and have some sense of how they really feel about what they do.
I'm a 0L so I have no idea just how unhappy lawyers are. Maybe it is way worse than anything else. But I will say that I'm currently a journalist, which you mentioned, and most of my friends, even the ones whose weddings I attend, think I have the best job in the world. I occasionally get to interview famous people, and I sit in the press box at sporting events. Every now and then something I write gets a bunch of attention or wins a fancy-sounding award. Every new story allows me to throw myself into a totally different world, so that no two days are ever really the same. And it truly is a pretty great job in many respects.

But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.

I guess my point is that when I tell lawyers I want to be a lawyer, they often respond with disbelief because they've always wanted to be journalists. The grass is always greener, I suppose.
I'm not denying grass is always greener complex exists and that we suffer from it. In fact, that's part of the point. I brought up persons in other industries and careers specifically to show that we do have non-law peers and friends who we see doing different, interesting, meaningful things with their lives. I'm not saying their lives are all great, but they tend to be happier with their career choices (or they do an extremely good job of not showing their true hatred, whereas lawyers complain constantly). And I'm not saying a journalists job is "peachy". Far from it: those are tough jobs to get and tough jobs to keep.

But for what it's worth, I can't speak to your specific situation, but if I were in your shoes there's no way in a million fucking years that I'd go to law school--any law school. We all went to the same good schools, this isn't a "don't go unless the undergrad participates in a certain northeast sports league" kind of thing. (Unless we're talking about a small circulation print or spam or tabloid press or something, but that doesn't sound like what you have). You have to arrive at this choice by yourself.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by deepseapartners » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:29 pm

s1m4 wrote:Many people here are very very smart, but find very clever ways to make themselves miserable. There is a whole world out there and a life to live, you are in a unique position to save a lot of f-u money, really, its not that bad out there.
I think you might be underestimating how easy it is to fall into the success trap, especially if you were like OP and, instead of hustling and rising up to a place you would have never dreamed of reaching before, you're fulfilling social expectations to continue on a path of upper middle-class success in an insanely-demanding career. Like there is a reason that most people who post in these kind of threads "oh boo hoo you poor one percenter" get spammed by hate mail, and that's because none of the naysayers are in the position of the complainer.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by $$$$$$ » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:42 pm

cattleprod wrote:
BernieTrump wrote:
ManOurHouseisGreat wrote:I read through the entire thread and I still don't understand why you don't just quit.
and do what? fake SS disability?

I would quit for any non-law job that had any room for advancement. I'm willing to take an 80+% paycut. Nobody will even screen you.
I was you but with only 3 years. Hated the entire legal industry. Got exited during the recession.

Got out and learned database programming. This was 7 years ago. I was making $100,000+ very soon thereafter. Now I am at $170,000+, bonus, stock grants, 4 weeks paid vacation, etc. Total compensation is getting over $200,000 annually now and just grows every year.

Tech work is very much about high quality of life. 9 am to 4:30 pm is my typical day.

There are options outside of law and the business world. Tech is the great way to $100,000+ without an advanced degree. Heck, your UG doesn't even need to be tech related.

There are plenty of opportunities for advancement of you want to go management. However the managers seem far more vulnerable to layoffs than the tech experts. My current employer just did a tech re-org. Wiped out a layer of managers, directors and a few VPs. Zero programmers fired.

My phone and email are flooded with offers trying to lure me away.

Anyone considering law should definitely redirect elsewhere. I wish I had done Computer Science from the start. That is where all of the job demand and growth is. I am now in my early 40s. I used to worry about outsourcing and age discrimination. I don't any longer. The demand for database experts is just huge and growing.

Programming apps or databases requires similar skills as law. Attention to detail and creative problem solving is important. But this stuff is easy if you are smart. But most people are too intimidated to even get started. That is why there is so much demand for those that have figured it out.
which languages did you learn? SQL?

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Leonardo DiCaprio

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Leonardo DiCaprio » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:44 pm

was wondering when "just do coding boot camp bro" would pop up.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by s1m4 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:48 pm

Leonardo DiCaprio wrote:was wondering when "just do coding boot camp bro" would pop up.
Well, why isn't this a serious alternative?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by zot1 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:01 pm

WinterComing wrote: But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
As already pointed out, except for the salary part, the other things also happen in BigLaw.

The difference is that, ideally, as a journalist, you didn't get into as many student loans as most BigLaw lawyers.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:07 pm

zot1 wrote:
WinterComing wrote: But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
As already pointed out, except for the salary part, the other things also happen in BigLaw.

The difference is that, ideally, as a journalist, you didn't get into as many student loans as most BigLaw lawyers.
As I already pointed out, I wasn't trying to make a comparison between journalism and Big Law.

That said, if you seriously think the chance of losing your job in law is as high as it is in journalism you're nuts. Something like a third of all newspaper reporters have been laid off and only like 5 percent of those have found new journalism jobs. And that trend started well before the recession. Is that true of big law lawyers?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by s1m4 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:09 pm

WinterComing wrote:
zot1 wrote:
WinterComing wrote: But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
As already pointed out, except for the salary part, the other things also happen in BigLaw.

The difference is that, ideally, as a journalist, you didn't get into as many student loans as most BigLaw lawyers.
As I already pointed out, I wasn't trying to make a comparison between journalism and Big Law.

That said, if you seriously think the chance of losing your job in law is as high as it is in journalism you're nuts. Something like a third of all newspaper reporters have been laid off and only like 5 percent of those have found new journalism jobs. And that trend started well before the recession. Is that true of big law lawyers?
What field do most laid of journalists go into after leaving journalism?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by zot1 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:14 pm

WinterComing wrote:
zot1 wrote:
WinterComing wrote: But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
As already pointed out, except for the salary part, the other things also happen in BigLaw.

The difference is that, ideally, as a journalist, you didn't get into as many student loans as most BigLaw lawyers.
As I already pointed out, I wasn't trying to make a comparison between journalism and Big Law.

That said, if you seriously think the chance of losing your job in law is as high as it is in journalism you're nuts. Something like a third of all newspaper reporters have been laid off and only like 5 percent of those have found new journalism jobs. And that trend started well before the recession. Is that true of big law lawyers?
I apologize. I started the post before going to the store and by the time I actually posted it, I hadn't seen your response.

BigLaw layoffs are more common than you think. Here's a recent one: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/attorney ... glaw-firm/.

I would also encourage to google this issue as a prospective student.

Also, in addition to layoffs, biglaw has this really cool strategy where you are told to look for other work without actually being fired. You don't see the statistics for these cases anywhere, but they are very common.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:15 pm

s1m4 wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
zot1 wrote:
WinterComing wrote: But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.
As already pointed out, except for the salary part, the other things also happen in BigLaw.

The difference is that, ideally, as a journalist, you didn't get into as many student loans as most BigLaw lawyers.
As I already pointed out, I wasn't trying to make a comparison between journalism and Big Law.

That said, if you seriously think the chance of losing your job in law is as high as it is in journalism you're nuts. Something like a third of all newspaper reporters have been laid off and only like 5 percent of those have found new journalism jobs. And that trend started well before the recession. Is that true of big law lawyers?
What field do most laid of journalists go into after leaving journalism?
The ones who find jobs often end up in PR. I know quite a few waiting tables. Some go to law school.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by zot1 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:18 pm

WinterComing wrote:
s1m4 wrote:


What field do most laid of journalists go into after leaving journalism?
The ones who find jobs often end up in PR. I know quite a few waiting tables. Some go to law school.

Ironically, there are also law school grads waiting tables.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Tls2016 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:23 pm

WinterComing wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:These are all people that came to my wedding, with two exceptions for people who were invited but couldn't make it. (And this is a modestly sized wedding). Your point is well taken, but I'm not talking about facebook friends, I'm talking about honest to god friends that I'm actually in touch with and have some sense of how they really feel about what they do.
I'm a 0L so I have no idea just how unhappy lawyers are. Maybe it is way worse than anything else. But I will say that I'm currently a journalist, which you mentioned, and most of my friends, even the ones whose weddings I attend, think I have the best job in the world. I occasionally get to interview famous people, and I sit in the press box at sporting events. Every now and then something I write gets a bunch of attention or wins a fancy-sounding award. Every new story allows me to throw myself into a totally different world, so that no two days are ever really the same. And it truly is a pretty great job in many respects.

But what those friends don't see is the constant fear that I'll be laid off as the media industry continues to collapse in on itself, or the seven extra tasks I've had to take on because we haven't replaced any of the people who quit in the past two years, or my crummy (yet better than many journalists) salary with no hope for a raise, or the absolutely horrible morale in my office.

I guess my point is that when I tell lawyers I want to be a lawyer, they often respond with disbelief because they've always wanted to be journalists. The grass is always greener, I suppose.
This thread is tempering those expectations 0Ls have about biglaw being the greener grass. You probably realize by now that big law is up or out, and odds are high that you will be out if you don't leave of your own accord. Lawyers live in fear of losing their jobs too. That stress may not go away.
Maybe lawyers don't understand the stress of being a journalist.That isn't relevant now. What is relevant is whether 0Ls taking on massive debt to head into biglaw should understand the job and career path and look beyond the salary. Many lawyers who start out in biglaw make the most they will ever make per year at the beginning of their career.
You have solid research skills. You should utilize them to gain an understanding of law.

There was a post here about managing clients as they get to know you over time. I became close friends with two of the bankers who were my clients. They always left the calls to me until the last thing of their day because they knew I would be working and that I would get stuff son overnight for when they were in the next day.
Their view is that they pay so much for the lawyers that they call when it is best for them. The lawyers job is to get the clients work done. It isn't the clients job to work on the layers schedule. Being friends with them socially didn't alter that business balance.

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WinterComing

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:24 pm

zot1 wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
s1m4 wrote:


What field do most laid of journalists go into after leaving journalism?
The ones who find jobs often end up in PR. I know quite a few waiting tables. Some go to law school.

Ironically, there are also law school grads waiting tables.
In the context of this thread, I have a hard time believing that very many people with OP's credentials are working at McDonald's. But overall, point taken, lawyers have to worry about being laid off or not getting a job too.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by tomwatts » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:29 pm

buckiguy_sucks wrote:
tomwatts wrote: But my main point is that you know the reputations of firms before you ever set foot in the building if you've done adequate research. Biglaw firms are not interchangeable (at least not completely). Some are much more workaholic firms — and some have much more unhealthily competitive atmospheres — than others. There are places that I would never apply because I know the culture is weird. There are places that I would never apply because there is no amount of money that you could pay me to do that work for that much time each day. And most of these places I learned about with about a month's research before OCI. So it's not that hard to figure out some basic differences among firms.
Where do 1Ls do this research
It's about three years since I did this, so it's not exactly fresh in my mind, but I started with the most public (and, you would expect, least useful) information such as firm websites and Vault profiles and the like. That helped me get a sense of what the firms wanted to boast about; it won't tell you weaknesses, but it will tell you what a firm thinks its strengths are. I also looked at statistics from OCI from past years to get a sense of where people were, and were not, trying to go in different markets. Then I tried to figure out who from my school had gone to different firms in the past, if I knew anyone from previous years who had SA-ed. (If I were really interested, I might try to talk to those people to see what their impressions were.)

I suppose a big part of my impressions of firms also came from screener and callback interviews during OCI. There was one firm that seemed okay on paper, but almost everyone I met there was really, really weird and off-putting. Definitely not working there in the future. There was another firm where partners who interviewed me looked startled when I walked through the door, as if they were so absorbed in their work that coming back to reality was a shock to them. This place, I later learned (and was not surprised to find out), was known for its 80-100 hour weeks that people worked basically every week.

I didn't really do this myself, but probably your school's career services office has some sense of the different firms, too. You may have to talk to them, or try to get some alums on the phone, or whatever you can do to get inside information. (Sometimes, albeit not very often, professors know about firms too.)

This is just what comes to mind three years later. There are probably other practical things that I'm forgetting.

Cynic

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Cynic » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:31 pm

Wait... Is journalism really that bad too? I keep hearing that, but it sounds like such a fun and rewarding job. Just how bad is the pay?

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WinterComing

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:34 pm

Tls2016 wrote: This thread is tempering those expectations 0Ls have about biglaw being the greener grass. You probably realize by now that big law is up or out, and odds are high that you will be out if you don't leave of your own accord. Lawyers live in fear of losing their jobs too. That stress may not go away.
Maybe lawyers don't understand the stress of being a journalist.That isn't relevant now. What is relevant is whether 0Ls taking on massive debt to head into biglaw should understand the job and career path and look beyond the salary. Many lawyers who start out in biglaw make the most they will ever make per year at the beginning of their career.
You have solid research skills. You should utilize them to gain an understanding of law.

There was a post here about managing clients as they get to know you over time. I became close friends with two of the bankers who were my clients. They always left the calls to me until the last thing of their day because they knew I would be working and that I would get stuff son overnight for when they were in the next day.
Their view is that they pay so much for the lawyers that they call when it is best for them. The lawyers job is to get the clients work done. It isn't the clients job to work on the layers schedule. Being friends with them socially didn't alter that business balance.
I feel like this is once again taking what I said out of context. Somebody in this thread listed journalism among a list of paths that might have been better than going into the law. I was just noting that journalism isn't necessarily any better. If your point is that law is just as shitty as journalism, then you're making the exact same point I did in reverse. I mean, if you're saying that law has all the same drawbacks as journalism except you're paid better, that's not exactly dissuading me from making the career change. And I'm not interested in Big Law anyway, so it's not particularly relevant to my personal situation. I certainly didn't mean to shift the focus of this thread to me in any way.

As for my research skills, I think I'm going into law school with eyes wide open about the pros and cons of that choice.

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mvp99

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by mvp99 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:35 pm

Leonardo DiCaprio wrote:was wondering when "just do coding boot camp bro" would pop up.
+1

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WinterComing

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by WinterComing » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:36 pm

Cynic wrote:Wait... Is journalism really that bad too? I keep hearing that, but it sounds like such a fun and rewarding job. Just how bad is the pay?
It's a really fun job, no doubt. Median salary is like 42K. You often work nights and weekends and holidays. Industry job "growth" is projected at like negative 15 percent.

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zot1

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by zot1 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:39 pm

I wouldn't say that they have the same drawbacks except that you get paid better in BigLaw.

Writing your own articles could be stimulating. Cooking specialty meals could be fun. Teaching young minds can be rewarding. Feeling this way about a job gets you through the drawbacks.

In BigLaw, you don't find a lot of these feelings. This makes the job for a lot of people awful despite the higher pay.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:40 pm

Cynic wrote:Wait... Is journalism really that bad too? I keep hearing that, but it sounds like such a fun and rewarding job. Just how bad is the pay?
Journalism is dying. I knew a number of journalists-turned-lawyers in law school, who enjoyed and were good at their former jobs, and they were all very pessimistic about the industry collapsing.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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