Why hasn't the ABA considered limiting the number of incoming law students? Forum

[BeyonceBeytwice]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

[ScottRiqui]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

I think the problem is that not ALL law schools need to reduce their class size, and the ABA has pretty much refused any kind of targeted approach that would address the real "dumpster fire" schools.

[zot1]

Schools would lose out money.

[baal hadad]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

Check me on this but I believe there is some antitrust rationale why they say they cant

[ScottRiqui]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

Check me on this but I believe there is some antitrust rationale why they say they cant

That's a possibility, but I think the AMA somehow manages to restrict the number of med students each year. If they do, I'm not sure what the actual mechanism is, though.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Too many people benefit financially from having more people go to law school/graduate/take the bar exam. It's also really cheap to offer law school classes (as opposed to medical schools, which are costly to run, and medical residencies, which are also expensive and limited in number, which is one of the factors behind limiting medical school admissions that you don't have with law).

[umichman]

people in power want $$$$$$$$. they make that money from law students. More law students=more $$$$

[GreenEggs]

people in power want $$$$$$$$. they make that money from law students. More law students=more $$$$

yeah its jus about the $

[White Dwarf]

Nothing is going to get done until people stop enrolling at these awful schools.

A five minute internet search could tell you that a school is a terrible choice, and yet people still spend/borrow tens of millions of dollars each year to go to bottom-feeder law schools.

I sympathize with people who are stuck with mountains of debt and no job, but they do have to take responsibility for their poor decisions.

[BeyonceBeytwice]

I have no idea how, but I really think we should be convincing the ABA to do so. I highly doubt the market will improve if we don't. Or at the very least, get the ABA to agree to stop approving new law schools for a certain number of years Who would I go to about this?

[BeyonceBeytwice]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

I think the problem is that not ALL law schools need to reduce their class size, and the ABA has pretty much refused any kind of targeted approach that would address the real "dumpster fire" schools.

I think all law schools need to, but of course the number would be tailored to the specific market in that city/state. Do you know what proposals have been offered?

[Tls2016]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

I think the problem is that not ALL law schools need to reduce their class size, and the ABA has pretty much refused any kind of targeted approach that would address the real "dumpster fire" schools.

I think all law schools need to, but of course the number would be tailored to the specific market in that city/state. Do you know what proposals have been offered?

No proposals have been offered. The ABA has been approving more schools, not cutting back. Last I looked, the people on the education committee were from schools who benefit from scamming students.

[tomwatts]

I have no idea how, but I really think we should be convincing the ABA to do so. I highly doubt the market will improve if we don't. Or at the very least, get the ABA to agree to stop approving new law schools for a certain number of years Who would I go to about this?

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal ... ct_us.html

[A. Nony Mouse]

I have no idea how, but I really think we should be convincing the ABA to do so. I highly doubt the market will improve if we don't. Or at the very least, get the ABA to agree to stop approving new law schools for a certain number of years Who would I go to about this?

It's not a new idea. If the ABA wanted to limit enrollment it would have done it a long time ago.

[BeyonceBeytwice]

Deleted

[BeyonceBeytwice]

I have no idea how, but I really think we should be convincing the ABA to do so. I highly doubt the market will improve if we don't. Or at the very least, get the ABA to agree to stop approving new law schools for a certain number of years Who would I go to about this?

It's not a new idea. If the ABA wanted to limit enrollment it would have done it a long time ago.

I get that I'm not the first person to think of it, but if a lot of people agree it's a solid approach, I'd like to talk to officials about it. I just have no idea who I should go to.

[Tls2016]

I have no idea how, but I really think we should be convincing the ABA to do so. I highly doubt the market will improve if we don't. Or at the very least, get the ABA to agree to stop approving new law schools for a certain number of years Who would I go to about this?

It's not a new idea. If the ABA wanted to limit enrollment it would have done it a long time ago.

I get that I'm not the first person to think of it, but if a lot of people agree it's a solid approach, I'd like to talk to officials about it. I just have no idea who I should go to.

Ask the LST guys. They have contacts with the ABA.

[PMan99]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

Check me on this but I believe there is some antitrust rationale why they say they cant

That's a possibility, but I think the AMA somehow manages to restrict the number of med students each year. If they do, I'm not sure what the actual mechanism is, though.

There is a professional self regulation exception for antitrust laws that courts look at. It's a wishy-washy balancing test but the short of is that while lawyers might have more leeway to self regulate than, say, engineers, they have less leeway to self regulate than doctors. And restricting the number of lawyers just to jack up salaries would not pass the balancing test.

[totesTheGoat]

That is absolutely ridiculous. I think we need to get students together to start protesting this or at least confronting the ABA about it. At the very least the ABA should be concerned about the rising number of lawsuits on the subject.

Of all the ABA bullshit that students should be protesting, I think this is pretty far down on the list.

[flawedargument]

It's all about the money.

[reasonable_man]

I have a hard time thinking of an organization as impotent/useless/wasteful as the ABA. They do next to nothing of importance and regular lawyers only join if their firm is paying for it.

The problem the profession is now facing is not the actual number of attorneys. It's the number of attorneys that can't read beyond a fourth grade level. With the precipitous decline in LSAT Medians, schools at the lower to mid end of the spectrum are admitting special snow flakes with 148s on their LSAT. These helmet wearers can't reason their way out of a paper bag, let alone pass a bar exam or actually competently represent a client.

Now one would simply say - don't worry, that's why we have the bar exam. To stop the mouth breathers from joining the profession, even if some diploma mill handed them a JD. But the problem is that there are movements afoot across the country to make the bar exam easier. NY issued its very last real NY bar exam - a challenging test that required detailed knowledge of 30+ areas of law in favor of the new multistate test that even bar prep courses are calling "much easier than the old NY bar."

Other states are looking to eliminate the exam. Newsweek says that bar exams are "unfair" to "lower class applicants." And just this week, against the advice of their own bar exam committee appointees, the State Supreme Court in Oklahoma announced in a split decision it will make the bar exam easier in response to the new breed of inept law grads finding the test too hard to pass.

So what's driving this move to make the exam easier (coincidentally coinciding with a wave of future law grads with the lowest LSAT scores EVER graduating over the next 2 to 3 years)? It's the law school machine, enabled by the money it generates and the complacency of the ABA. And why are they doing it? To keep the scam going and the money rolling in. You see, the new breed of intellect challenged law grads have to pass the exam so that new morons will keep enrolling. If the pass rates drop too low, enrollment crashes. It's all pretty simple.

I am not a big believer in conspiracies. But when you look at what's happening objectively and realize that states are making their tests easier in anticipation of a wave of idiots taking the exam, you have to wonder who is being served. It's certainly not the profession (about to be eroded by idiots) and it's not the public that will rely on these idiots to provide legal services. It's the law schools and their friends at the ABA.


You're a lawyer. You're a lawyer. And you're a lawyer. Everyone is a lawyer!!!! Even if you can't read and write.

[BVest]

With the poor legal employment numbers in every state, why are law schools admitting so many students? Has the ABA considered limiting the number of students per school to strengthen numbers? What are your thoughts on this?

Check me on this but I believe there is some antitrust rationale why they say they cant

That's a possibility, but I think the AMA somehow manages to restrict the number of med students each year. If they do, I'm not sure what the actual mechanism is, though.

AMA does not do this. Medical schools are a hell of a lot more expensive to start up though, so a university considering a new professional degree is more likely to just add a law school or an allied health school like nursing, optometry, PT, etc.

And yes, the antitrust restrictions on the ABA are strong. They can certainly set standards for schools to get accredited, but they have to be reasonably related to quality education and not simply meant to reduce the number of schools.

[lacrossebrother]

I'm confused. Why exactly should there be less schools? So the median washington & lee grad who entered school with a 164/3.5 and took on $175k debt doesn't lose out on jobs to the top 5% mercer grad who happened to enter with a 160/3.5??

[stego]

I think the argument that there should be less schools is that (a) there are way too many unemployed law grads and secondarily, maybe (b) too many unqualified people are getting law degrees.

But the problem, other than the current arrangement making too much money for too many people, is how you'd come up with a fair way to place limits. Which schools get to stay open and which don't? How many students is each school allowed to enroll? William Mitchell and Hamline merged into one school, but their combined enrollment now is less than either school's individual enrollment was a few years ago (IIRC). So theoretically, even if the number of schools went down the total number of law students could still go up if enrollment rose enough.

[reasonable_man]

If you cannot break a 154 on the LSAT, you have no business being a lawyer. You probably have no business in any white collar job. There is your line in the sand.

There are thousands of students enrolled in law school now that 8 years ago would not have been accepted at any ABA law school. LST has the numbers easily available and its really scary. The number of incoming students with 140s and very low 150 LSAT scores is frightening. 8 to 10 years ago you actually could not get in anywhere with those kinds of numbers. Even Cooley wanted a 150 or so.

Quick example of the problem. Let's pick a random crappy law school. Hofstra...

Hofstra in 2011: LSAT Median - 159 / bottom 25% - 155
Hofstra in 2015: LSAT Median - 153 / bottom 25% - 147

There is simply no defensible basis for what these schools are doing to the profession. They are minting JDs that can hardly avoid drooling on their ties, never mind practice law.