Location & quality of life vs. job prospects Forum

[Troianii]

So from the get go let me say this: what I'm asking for is people's opinions about what one should seek most (generally), but also some specific advice for my situation specifically.

For starters, I'm not in the financial bind that most law school applicants are, because I have outside funding that will cover nearly all of the expenses at any law school (including cost of living). It's the GI Bill, and I don't want to delve too much into the specifics, but it pays more based on cost of living.

I'm not particularly interested in biglaw - I don't know that I'd shy away from 160k, but I don't particularly feel the need for that either. For myself I prefer quality of living - I'd rather have a less stressful job with decent hours (50ish, give or take). Additionally, I would prefer to practice in a specific area. But, I absolutely don't want to come out of law school without a "real" job - let's define "real" as "significantly gainful legal employment".

The quandry I'm in is that the legal market where I'd like to work sucks, and (though apparently mostly for that reason alone) so does the one law school. The only law school in the state that I want to work in is ranked somewhere beyond #100 (actual "TTT"). It has about 50% of its grads getting jd-required jobs, 20% getting jd advantage jobs, and about 20% unemployed (this includes about 5-6% seeking further degree, and the remainder full-stop unemployed). It has about 60% of the class reporting, with a median income of 50k, and a 25th percentile income of 45k (the year prior it's 25th was 37k).

I can go to this school for basically free - as currently situated, I'd have to pay for books and about 2k of tuition, and my housing costs are covered. However, there are schools with much better prospects available outside of my preferred region. Some 2nd tier NY schools have offered scholarships such that I'd have to pay 10-20k. Some western/midwestern 2nd tier schools have offered me a full ride or nearly full ride. And there are some other 1st tier schools that I could attend and pay 20-40k in total to attend.

I may well benefit from taking a year off to retake the LSAT, but the real quandry for me is this: are the job figures in the state where I want to work bad enough that I should scrap any plans of going there? If not, would it be worthwhile to go to any school outside the T20 over my state's law school, if I plan on working in my state?



SIDENOTE: I know what's coming, the "retake" suggestion. I've thought it through, and am still considering it, but ultimately this question I'm posing would seem to be first order, because a 10pt bump in my LSAT score would give me an outside shot at Georgetown or Vanderbilt (like one in 5), but really no shot at anything better. A 10 pt bump is doable, though difficult and unlikely, but even if I were to get a 10pt bump that would likely leave me with WUSTL as my top ranked school that I could expect to get into, and I would likely be looking at 50k+ in costs there (after my outside funding), but outside of that I don't know if any schools in the 20s or 30s would offer me significantly better employment in my home state. Essentially, there is no big law in my home state. So I'm open to thoughts on that, but that's a secondary question for me at this point.

Thanks to all who take the time to read and respond to this.

[Aeon]

It would be helpful to have some specifics about the state where you'd like to work and the schools you're considering. If you have strong connections to your desired market (family, SO, etc.), then it's doable to go to school out of state and aim for jobs in your desired market. There are two big caveats. The first is that, if it's a smaller market, OCI won't be a realistic option, so you'd have to hustle to find a job. The second is that the out-of-state school should be a very good one with national reach. If the out-of-state schools you're considering generally place their graduates regionally, and your market isn't in that region, then it wouldn't make sense to go there over the in-state school.

This is all at a very high level of generality, of course. Each market has its own peculiarities.

[totesTheGoat]

I may well benefit from taking a year off to retake the LSAT, but the real quandry for me is this: are the job figures in the state where I want to work bad enough that I should scrap any plans of going there?

I sure as hell wouldn't spend 3 years of my life working my ass off (whether or not law school is "hard" it's a lot of work) in order to have a 50% chance of making the US median household income or better. You can spend the 3 years instead finding a good job with some decent career prospects that makes a similar salary and has much better work/life balance.

The thing is that a law salary isn't particularly well correlated to how hard you work. You can make $40k and still be waaaay on the work side of work/life balance.

If not, would it be worthwhile to go to any school outside the T20 over my state's law school, if I plan on working in my state?

That's a case by case basis, IMO. The 21st ranked school in the state next door? Sure! A 90-something ranked school 2000 miles away? Prolly not.

A 10 pt bump is doable, though difficult and unlikely, but even if I were to get a 10pt bump that would likely leave me with WUSTL as my top ranked school that I could expect to get into, and I would likely be looking at 50k+ in costs there (after my outside funding), but outside of that I don't know if any schools in the 20s or 30s would offer me significantly better employment in my home state.

You're in a somewhat unique situation since you're getting GI bill help. For you, it's not as important that you make the most "economic" choice, because the worst case debt isn't particularly horrific. To me, that means you can take a risk with a T2 school, where it may not make sense for a similarly situated K-JD who isn't getting GI bill help. Even if the SHTF, you're not moving a $180k student loan mountain with a plastic spoon.

Look around at local law firms' websites and see where all their younger associates are coming from. See what sort of data comes out of that analysis. Perhaps there's a T2 from a neighboring state that places well in your state.

[Troianii]

It would be helpful to have some specifics about the state where you'd like to work and the schools you're considering. If you have strong connections to your desired market (family, SO, etc.), then it's doable to go to school out of state and aim for jobs in your desired market. There are two big caveats. The first is that, if it's a smaller market, OCI won't be a realistic option, so you'd have to hustle to find a job. The second is that the out-of-state school should be a very good one with national reach. If the out-of-state schools you're considering generally place their graduates regionally, and your market isn't in that region, then it wouldn't make sense to go there over the in-state school.

This is all at a very high level of generality, of course. Each market has its own peculiarities.

Ah. Yeah I somehow thought it'd be best to keep this private, but I always go back and fort on this. I'll spill more details. First thing I should say is that I'm open to living in a different area, but I much prefer to be in Maine, and prefer someplace with four seasons.

I prefer to work in Maine.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/

I can tell you right now that the law schools I've been looking closely at don't have strong national reach.

Places I've gotten into which I have seriously considered are: ASU, Baylor, Syracuse, St. John's, UNH, Kentucky, Oklahoma. UNH is real close, but after researching the school it doesn't seem like they actually have much better prospects than Maine law, *after* you account for UNH's strong IP/patent law presence (an area they excel in but which I'm not going into). ASU has a southwestern reach, and Baylor seems to have some modicum of national reach (though nothing like Notre Dame or the like), but they would actually cost me over 100k to attend, so I'm not interested. Of the remainder, I found that the best overall offer was from OK - they offered to cover the full remainder of my costs and then some. It's a school I like, I've looked up the area and really like it, but it isn't home and they don't have national reach.

So I'm still loosely considering Syracuse and St. John's (which I've only put on the back burner because the scholarships are conditional, and both schools are very expensive), but at this point I'm mostly down to OK and ME. I really like the offer from OK and could see myself living there, and it has decent job prospects, insofar as what I'm looking for, but it's that far away from family. Either would be basically free. After scholarship and benefits, OK would be fully covered plus they offered to take classes in the summer for free (it's the same law courses, but it lightens the load for regular semesters). Maine awarded a scholarship oddly (flat amount rather than per semester amount), and with it I'd be left paying about 2k to go.

And I guess really here I'm asking for thoughts on which is more important, location & family or the other financial considerations/job prospects?

[Troianii]

I sure as hell wouldn't spend 3 years of my life working my ass off (whether or not law school is "hard" it's a lot of work) in order to have a 50% chance of making the US median household income or better. You can spend the 3 years instead finding a good job with some decent career prospects that makes a similar salary and has much better work/life balance.

In fairness to Maine, the cost of living is fairly low. Whatever your paycheck would be in NYC, the cost of living in the most expensive area of Maine is about half that. And don't get me wrong, not disagreeing - I'm very skeptical about it myself - but I'm just saying that 50k is certainly livable in ME. It's a state where the Governor gets paid something like 75k because it's just that cheap to live well in Maine.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sav ... lator.aspx

The thing is that a law salary isn't particularly well correlated to how hard you work. You can make $40k and still be waaaay on the work side of work/life balance.

OK. My understanding is still that there is a loose correlation - namely that public lawyers get paid less but have more livable schedules. For me I'm interested in getting the best of both - I don't want to work to death (part of why I wanted to go into law, I was sick of working to death for no money - and I put this in here so that you can all get a good laugh at me).

That's a case by case basis, IMO. The 21st ranked school in the state next door? Sure! A 90-something ranked school 2000 miles away? Prolly not.

yep, I should have given more details. ASU and BU are tied for #26, if I remember right - I got into ASU but not into BU. I also applied to BC and didn't get in. I'm waiting to hear on a few other in the 20s, and waitlisted at some, but right now the only one I'm really holding any hope on is William and Mary. The other tier 1 schools I'm waiting to hear from have a pretty tight regional reach.

You're in a somewhat unique situation since you're getting GI bill help. For you, it's not as important that you make the most "economic" choice, because the worst case debt isn't particularly horrific. To me, that means you can take a risk with a T2 school, where it may not make sense for a similarly situated K-JD who isn't getting GI bill help. Even if the SHTF, you're not moving a $180k student loan mountain with a plastic spoon.Look around at local law firms' websites and see where all their younger associates are coming from. See what sort of data comes out of that analysis. Perhaps there's a T2 from a neighboring state that places well in your state.

You know, this is such an incredibly basic point that it's almost asinine to make but... well f me, it never occurred to me. Dead serious - I'm an idiot, and I'll look at law firms in the area. Would it be inappropriate to call?

[Troianii]

Aeon and totesthegoat, thanks for the responses.

[Dcc617]

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OP, I feel like I've interacted with you before, but I cannot recall how. Anyway, what percentage of the GI bill do you have? Because your post doesn't make 100% sense to me as it stands.

[Troianii]

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OP, I feel like I've interacted with you before, but I cannot recall how. Anyway, what percentage of the GI bill do you have? Because your post doesn't make 100% sense to me as it stands.

I recognize your avatar, I think we did. I have 5 semesters at 100% benefit rate.

[Dcc617]

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OP, I feel like I've interacted with you before, but I cannot recall how. Anyway, what percentage of the GI bill do you have? Because your post doesn't make 100% sense to me as it stands.

I recognize your avatar, I think we did. I have 5 semesters at 100% benefit rate.

So you have about 23 months? How did you deplete your other months. Depending on which GI bill you had previously used, you could get twelve extra months (in college I used like 15 months of Montgomery Select Reserve (which was dumb)) but now I get 33 months of total eligibility at 100% GI bill because of the 48 month rule.

So you're worried about cost of attendance of one semester of law school? Dude, you should totally shoot for the stars. All public school are 100% covered now and increasingly more private schools are covering 100% with the yellow ribbon program. When you throw in that some schools are willing to work with the GI and scholarships (that is, classify the scholarship so that you get the money on top of GI bill funds) then you're in a great position to try for the biggest reach school you can think of.

Definitely don't settle or resign yourself to a subpar outcome, is what I'm saying.

[FlanAl]

The issue you're going to have with New England is the big oversupply problem with lawyers. Whatever U Maine's ranking, its definitely well respected in the state. If there was big law in Maine I'd assume they'd hire more than just one or two students from there. Problem is all you have is a few midlaw firms in Portland and a few random small law gigs outside of that and a bunch of law grads from Maine, UNH, and Vermont trying to score jobs. That's leaving out all the kids from boston schools and t-14s who want to go back to Maine. If you are living in/have strong ties to maine I'd suggest reaching out to lawyers up there and get their input. If you just have a desire to move to Maine, then I'd advise you to have the U Maine people put you in touch with some recent alums.

[Troianii]

The issue you're going to have with New England is the big oversupply problem with lawyers. Whatever U Maine's ranking, its definitely well respected in the state. If there was big law in Maine I'd assume they'd hire more than just one or two students from there. Problem is all you have is a few midlaw firms in Portland and a few random small law gigs outside of that and a bunch of law grads from Maine, UNH, and Vermont trying to score jobs. That's leaving out all the kids from boston schools and t-14s who want to go back to Maine. If you are living in/have strong ties to maine I'd suggest reaching out to lawyers up there and get their input. If you just have a desire to move to Maine, then I'd advise you to have the U Maine people put you in touch with some recent alums.

Yeah, I'll do that and reach out to local lawyers.

Whatever U Maine's ranking, its definitely well respected in the state.

I particularly appreciate this comment - I might have been undervaluing how well respected it is in the state of Maine.

So you have about 23 months? How did you deplete your other months. Depending on which GI bill you had previously used, you could get twelve extra months (in college I used like 15 months of Montgomery Select Reserve (which was dumb)) but now I get 33 months of total eligibility at 100% GI bill because of the 48 month rule.

So you're worried about cost of attendance of one semester of law school? Dude, you should totally shoot for the stars. All public school are 100% covered now and increasingly more private schools are covering 100% with the yellow ribbon program. When you throw in that some schools are willing to work with the GI and scholarships (that is, classify the scholarship so that you get the money on top of GI bill funds) then you're in a great position to try for the biggest reach school you can think of.

Definitely don't settle or resign yourself to a subpar outcome, is what I'm saying.

Sorry, was referring to Post 9/11. I paid for my first year of college myself, then used some post 9/11 benefits, and then voc rehab said they'd cover a portion of my undergrad. So I have 17mos 10days left, and I looked up the policies on it. If the semesters are less than 120days, they could as 4months of benefits. That'd leave me 4 w/a reaminder, but the VA has a 1day1term policy rule for that, so I'd get 5 semesters covered.

The reason I'm worried about the cost of attendance is that it may well not be worth it if I'm trying to work in Maine. So something like ASU would still cost me tens of thousands, and when moving back to Maine ASU might just as well be confused with Phoenix.

Sidenote: getting schools to rework GI Bill benefits was the hardest thing because of my 5 semesters business. Most didn't want to backload my scholarship to work out better, but it got particularly hard with the schools that had conditional scholarships.

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you're trying to work in Maine, go to school in Maine. I get your concern about the market (and I think FlanAl is right about the problems) but the other schools won't get you there, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to move to Oklahoma and try to get a job there based on thinking you'd like it. You're not going to have a better shot at Maine jobs from schools in the 20s just because those schools are ranked higher.

[Dcc617]

Sorry, was referring to Post 9/11. I paid for my first year of college myself, then used some post 9/11 benefits, and then voc rehab said they'd cover a portion of my undergrad. So I have 17mos 10days left, and I looked up the policies on it. If the semesters are less than 120days, they could as 4months of benefits. That'd leave me 4 w/a reaminder, but the VA has a 1day1term policy rule for that, so I'd get 5 semesters covered.

The reason I'm worried about the cost of attendance is that it may well not be worth it if I'm trying to work in Maine. So something like ASU would still cost me tens of thousands, and when moving back to Maine ASU might just as well be confused with Phoenix.

Sidenote: getting schools to rework GI Bill benefits was the hardest thing because of my 5 semesters business. Most didn't want to backload my scholarship to work out better, but it got particularly hard with the schools that had conditional scholarships.

Yeah, I'm Post 9-11 now too, thankfully.

So I think that you should consider retaking just to have slightly stronger options. I'd recommend that you strive for the best regional school in the area that you want to work in. You're facing minimal debt, but it doesn't seem like you're super happy with your options right now. A few points on the LSAT could be a really big difference for you.

[Troianii]

Sorry, was referring to Post 9/11. I paid for my first year of college myself, then used some post 9/11 benefits, and then voc rehab said they'd cover a portion of my undergrad. So I have 17mos 10days left, and I looked up the policies on it. If the semesters are less than 120days, they could as 4months of benefits. That'd leave me 4 w/a reaminder, but the VA has a 1day1term policy rule for that, so I'd get 5 semesters covered.

The reason I'm worried about the cost of attendance is that it may well not be worth it if I'm trying to work in Maine. So something like ASU would still cost me tens of thousands, and when moving back to Maine ASU might just as well be confused with Phoenix.

Sidenote: getting schools to rework GI Bill benefits was the hardest thing because of my 5 semesters business. Most didn't want to backload my scholarship to work out better, but it got particularly hard with the schools that had conditional scholarships.

Yeah, I'm Post 9-11 now too, thankfully.

So I think that you should consider retaking just to have slightly stronger options. I'd recommend that you strive for the best regional school in the area that you want to work in. You're facing minimal debt, but it doesn't seem like you're super happy with your options right now. A few points on the LSAT could be a really big difference for you.

The thing is that I'm struggling to find any law schools where, based on mylsn searches, I would have a reasonable shot of getting into *and* would get improved chances of employment in Maine. The only ones I can think of that carry that kind of name and are in that range are Notre Dame or William and Mary, but I don't know if that boost would be significant, and it seems they might not actually get a boost in Maine.

It's just starting to sound like, if I want to work in Maine, Maine Law will actually be my best option.

[Dcc617]

But you have strong ties to Maine? I think strong ties and a better school would fare at least as well as a Maine law graduate. But, I'm unfortunately not very knowledgeable about the mechanics of legal hiring in Maine.

[Troianii]

If you're trying to work in Maine, go to school in Maine. I get your concern about the market (and I think FlanAl is right about the problems) but the other schools won't get you there, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to move to Oklahoma and try to get a job there based on thinking you'd like it. You're not going to have a better shot at Maine jobs from schools in the 20s just because those schools are ranked higher.

yeah, it sounds like it might be the option I hate to take.

I think we discussed this briefly before: do you think that LSAT scores for an entering class correlate at all with their ultimate class rank? Or more directly, should someone with an LSAT score for a school expect to be one of the top students there?

[Troianii]

But you have strong ties to Maine? I think strong ties and a better school would fare at least as well as a Maine law graduate. But, I'm unfortunately not very knowledgeable about the mechanics of legal hiring in Maine.

Strong familial ties. I only know one lawyer in Maine, and not well, so its not like I have a real legal connection to work off of.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think there are too many factors at play ever to expect something like that. Every year people go off to schools where their LSATs are ordinary, kill it, and transfer to higher-ranked schools they could never have got into with their LSAT - and then do just as well, or pretty close, as they did in their first school.

That said, most students at a given school are going to fall within a relatively narrow band of scores, and if yours is way above that band, it's certainly a better sign than not.

[Troianii]

I think there are too many factors at play ever to expect something like that. Every year people go off to schools where their LSATs are ordinary, kill it, and transfer to higher-ranked schools they could never have got into with their LSAT - and then do just as well, or pretty close, as they did in their first school.

That said, most students at a given school are going to fall within a relatively narrow band of scores, and if yours is way above that band, it's certainly a better sign than not.

as always, thanks A Nony Mouse

[robotrick]

I could be wrong, but I'd think your best higher ranked options would be BU and/or BC because they're still kinda in the same region and have decent "brands". A retake might get you in to one or both?

[Aeon]

Since you have strong familial ties to Maine and would like to remain there after graduation, I think Maine Law is a very good choice. I wouldn't pick UNH over it, because they are fairly comparable, and you probably would want to return to Maine anyway.

As robotrick mentioned, you might consider looking into BC and BU, as they are strong regional schools. But if your cost of attendance at Maine will be essentially negligible, then I'd still lean toward staying in-state, since it would be considerably pricier to attend school in Boston.

[Troianii]

Since you have strong familial ties to Maine and would like to remain there after graduation, I think Maine Law is a very good choice. I wouldn't pick UNH over it, because they are fairly comparable, and you probably would want to return to Maine anyway.

As robotrick mentioned, you might consider looking into BC and BU, as they are strong regional schools. But if your cost of attendance at Maine will be essentially negligible, then I'd still lean toward staying in-state, since it would be considerably pricier to attend school in Boston.

Applied ED to BU and applied to BC (would have EDed to BC but they no longer do thay or "early action). Didn't get into either. Both were reaches - a small bump in my LSAT would likely only be enough to get in with no scholarship, and neither have great YRP policies so I'd probably take nearly 100k in debt to attend them. Boston is a 2nd choice for where to work, but idk if a year off and an extra 100k in debt would be worth just getting into BU/BC, especially since I prefer government work.

[FlanAl]

I'm not sure an extra 100k is really worth it for BC or BU if you're trying to go to Maine. Try to figure out what kind of government work you want to do in Maine, that will be a big factor in your decision. If you're trying to work for the EPA up there then maybe BC BU are worth it. If you're just trying to work for the city attorney in Bangor or something then U Maine is probably where its at.

[Troianii]

I'm not sure an extra 100k is really worth it for BC or BU if you're trying to go to Maine. Try to figure out what kind of government work you want to do in Maine, that will be a big factor in your decision. If you're trying to work for the EPA up there then maybe BC BU are worth it. If you're just trying to work for the city attorney in Bangor or something then U Maine is probably where its at.

I have an ideal - working a federal gig in Brunswick for the Navy - but federal gigs are competitive, so I'm not going to plan on it. It's just one of those things - when I graduate they may well not have any openings. But my main reasons for wanting to work for the government is job security and a more reasonable workload - especially without the needs to essentially be a salesman.

[totesTheGoat]

I was a little bored earlier, so I took a look at the first two firms that I could find in ME. Each of these firms had at least 35 attorneys, and one of them was a regional new england firm (I only looked at the ME offices). UMaine was the single most represented school that I saw when looking at associates only. It was probably only 20% of the associates, but there were more UMaine graduates than BU and BC combined.

That doesn't really help you with knowing your chances, but it at least shows that you have a path to a decent job from UMaine. I don't know what those attorneys were making, but I doubt it was $40k a year.