W&M 2L Answering Questions Forum

[OneBarToAnother]

Getting ready for the start of a new semester, and thought it was time to give back a bit.

Any questions about law school, W&M in general, Williamsburg, OCI, or the job search welcome. Gives me a chance to focus on something else for a bit.

A bit of a profile: Top 5% of class, involving in competitive team, journal, and a number of different activities. 1L summer worked as an intern for a federal judge in DC; going to DC biglaw this coming summer.

Thanks

[JohnnyBazooka]

Thanks for doing this. A few questions:

1. What are employment prospects like for those with GPAs near the median, especially for private practice? What are you hearing from 3Ls?

2. How hard do you work to stay in the top 5%? 40 hours per week, 100, etc. I'd like to think I could do it but I don't want to count on it.

3. What are your living expenses? Website says 15k but that sounds high to me.

Thanks !!!

[Ranlif]

Hey, thanks for doing this!

1. What is the town like? Is the nightlife just all undergrad house parties you avoid like the plague?

2. Is everyone trying to get a job in DC or are most local Virginians looking to stay near home?

3. What is housing like off-campus? Just looking online and it looks like there are more condos and houses for rent then there is apartments.

[OneBarToAnother]

Hey, thanks for doing this!

1. What is the town like? Is the nightlife just all undergrad house parties you avoid like the plague?

2. Is everyone trying to get a job in DC or are most local Virginians looking to stay near home?

3. What is housing like off-campus? Just looking online and it looks like there are more condos and houses for rent then there is apartments.

1) Williamsburg is a small town, there is no denying it. There are really two, maybe three areas law students hang out at. One area is close to the undergrad campus and splits between four bars. The other area is across town in the Newtown area, with a few bars and shops. This is less likely to have undergrad influence, but in either case, I don't think it ever degrades into the "house parties" you are concerned about. If you are looking for a big city life or lots of options on weekends or downtime (when you can scrape it together), this is not the right area, but for a person interested in getting the most out of law school and still have a bit of fun, its not bad.

To be honest, I find that most of my group of friends have enough to do, but we get out once or twice a week, either to our local bar or to one of our houses for dinner and drinks. It has never bothered me, but I do know some students who wish Richmond or DC were a bit more accessible. That is one thing I think people don't realize; there is not any really reliable transportation back and forth to the larger cities. You have to generally drive, and it is a substantial enough trip to cut against the worth.

2) I think it's a pretty even split. There are definitely alot of people focused on DC or Richmond. I know a large number of people going to DC this coming summer. To me, it also seems that the class is spreading out over the country as a whole. Ihave 3L friends going to Colorado, Texas, Washington, Maine, Florida, and New York. The desire to stay local is more driven from a personal preference to stay in Virginia. Given all of that, I do still think Virginia is the best placement area for W&M students.

3) Housing is pretty broad across the range. There are a number of apartment complexes that don't have a good online presence, but are pretty popular among law students. I have friends who live in apartments, townhouses, single-family homes, and condos. I live in a privately rented house, mainly because of the convenience of its location and the price was right. I also know a number of people who couldn't find a proper fit their first year, and so stayed in grad plex and then moved out when they found the right place for them for 2L year. It also helped them find roommates that they really could live with more easily.

I also think the quality of housing spans the spectrum pretty well. If you want to pay more, you can get a really nice apartment at the Pointe or Sterling Manor. If you want to pay less, there are apartment complexes that fit that as well (names escape me at the moment). The Housing Bulletin put out by the law school also has some great options for places that are rented by individuals rather than companies. That is where I found my place, and I am living here through my 3L year.

If there is a more specific question you have, let me know.

Thanks for doing this. A few questions:

1. What are employment prospects like for those with GPAs near the median, especially for private practice? What are you hearing from 3Ls?

2. How hard do you work to stay in the top 5%? 40 hours per week, 100, etc. I'd like to think I could do it but I don't want to count on it.

3. What are your living expenses? Website says 15k but that sounds high to me.

Thanks !!!

1) The general atmosphere around the school is that employment prospects are relatively good. Certainly the better your grades, the more options you have, but I know people near the top of the 3L class that were still looking for jobs last semester and others closer to median that had locked in a position at a firm or government agency.

I am not sure if by "private practice" you mean biglaw, firm work generally, or going out on your own. To hit a big market like DC or NYC and land a biglaw job, you should be in the top 20-25% of your class. However, if it is any firm you are looking for, there are medium sized firms in Richmond and Norfolk area that really favor W&M students. I know a number of 3L's that are starting with big firms in both cities and they are near the median. There are certainly 3L's still looking for jobs, and to be perfectly frank, grades are not widely discussed at the school, so I have no clue where a large number of them stand. I can tell you for my 2L class, we have a large number of people heading to DC, both for biglaw jobs and for DOJ SLIP appointments.

The trick I've discovered, and I think this is probably true for most schools around W&M's rank, is to hustle and connect. Use the alumni network from the school and your own network to have informational interviews, talk to people, visit, do whatever you can. It shounds corny and cheezy, but I did it, I know others who did it, and it paid off big time. I've never had an alumni not push hard to help me in every way, and I think that is where the difference really can come through.

2) I work alot. I worked professionally before law school, so I really treat this like a job. I try to arrive at school around 8:30, even if I don't have class, and am usually there until 5 or 6. I usually do a bit of reading at home as well, but I have not had very many all nighters (maybe when I was stressing over a memo). The workload is manageable if you stay on top of it. The WRONG approach is to bury yourself with hours and hours of studying and burn yourself out. At a certain point the benefits are marginal, and you are wasting your time rather than using it effectively.

Two tips I think have really helped me are: 1) take notes in class by hand. It does not work for everyone, but I find myself paying better attention in class, and when I then go and synthesize my notes into an outline after class, I get a second shot to review the material and pick out what the professor focused on. If I have questions, I go to office hours or get together with a few people and really hash it out.

The second tip is to find someone NOT in law school and teach them. My significant other is a saint for sitting and listening to me talk through Torts and Civil Procedure and Evidence. By trying to explain and work through the rationale for something to someone you can understand what you really know, and the areas you need to look at more.

The other, and honestly, arbitrary side of law school is that the exam is a test to see if you can give the professor what they want, not to see if you really know the law. I happen to be pretty good and understanding what a professor finds important and spotting it on an exam. There are certainly smarter people and likely better lawyers in the school than me, but something just didn't connect during that 4 hour exam for them. My honest opinion is that law school grades are really arbitrary, but unfortunately too important.

3) Living expenses vary by person and what they like to do. I'd say that number is probably a little bit high, reality is more like 12-14K. I pay around 1000 per month for a place, but that is because I like living on my own. I know a number of people who half that by getting roommates.

[CousinBo]

Thanks for doing this.

Do you think that because W&M is isolated from DC and Richmond, it makes it harder to network or make connections?

How have other students who aren't top of the class fare with OCI and internships?

Is there a significant % of students who rely on previously established connections in DC or VA to get a job?

I've been accepted to W&M and am going to visit the school soon, pretty excited!

[OneBarToAnother]

Thanks for doing this.

Do you think that because W&M is isolated from DC and Richmond, it makes it harder to network or make connections?

How have other students who aren't top of the class fare with OCI and internships?

Is there a significant % of students who rely on previously established connections in DC or VA to get a job?

I've been accepted to W&M and am going to visit the school soon, pretty excited!

Congrats on your acceptance! I had some apprehension about W&M when I first enrolled, but have really fit in well here, and never looked back.

1) The school is definitely geographically isolated; the train running here is sporadic and there is no easy direct shot, particularly from DC. However, the school has some great connections with Richmond, and a number of practictioners (federal judges, partners at mcguirewoods and Hunton & Williams, and AUSA's) come down to teach as adjuncts at the school on a regular basis.

In this digital age, if you can't network via email & phone, you are doing something wrong. Don't mistake--a face-to-face meeting is great, but in my experience, those can be arranged after you've had the conversation on the phone. The real benefit that W&M adds is the involved alumni network. Every alumni I reached out to would go above and beyond to make sure I was put in front of the right people. To be fair, I know that networking/hustling is in my comfort zone and skill set; that may have made it easier for me. If networking is not your skill set, I do think the distance may make it harder.

2) In terms of 1L internships, I think nearly everyone in my class ended up with something regardless of their rank. Top 20% had it easier; and if you want to break into DC or NY or another big market, the grades certainly make a difference. Even within the Richmond market, where W&M has bigger influence, 1L's were primarily getting public interest or judicial internships.

I'll blatantly say that it would be a stretch, absent a personal connection, to find a paying 1L internship with a private firm.

For OCI, I think grades make the difference for how quickly a job is acquired. The higher your rank, the more interviews you are likely to get. HOWEVER, I will agree with a number of the professional posters on TLS--once you get that interview, however it happens, the firms are really looking for fit. I know that a friend of mine, closer to median is going to DOJ this summer, and another who is probably a similar rank is going to Navy JAG (did not come into school from the military).

I should just note--talking grades/ranking is very taboo at the school. We just don't do it.

3) I cannot answer this question. I had a connection to DC, and I am certain it made it easier for me to sell myself, particularly at OCI for the difficult DC market. But as to a percentage of how it worked, and how much it helped, I do not know.

[CousinBo]

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[potassium]

Hey, this is awesome that you're doing a Q&A!

I wanted to ask about campus culture, and about gay students in particular. Are there many openly gay law/grad students? I wouldn't expect there to be many gay bars in Williamsburg, but I'm curious to see what the campus world is like.

Thanks!

[Tittles]

Thanks so much for doing this, OP!

1) What do you know about the quality of life in the Gradplex? I stayed there a night for Homecoming (went to W&M for undergrad), and it seemed pretty nice, but a source recently told me that he's heard some horror stories out of there.

2) Honestly: how helpful is Career Services?

3) Do you have a rough estimate of how many people are in-state? And of those, a rough estimate of how many are from NoVa?

4) What's been your single best moment at W&M so far? And your worst?

[allthelove]

Thank you for doing this! I got into W&M and originally felt really hesitant about it due to rankings. But I want to work in VA or DC, and with their scholarship I could graduate debt free.

You mentioned you were hesitant too. What changed your mind?

[OneBarToAnother]

Hi Everyone,

I apologize for the delay in responding. My semester has gotten crazy busy with journal work and an externship, but rest assured, I am still here!
Now...onto the questions

Hey, this is awesome that you're doing a Q&A!

I wanted to ask about campus culture, and about gay students in particular. Are there many openly gay law/grad students? I wouldn't expect there to be many gay bars in Williamsburg, but I'm curious to see what the campus world is like.

Thanks!

The culture is pretty relaxed and accepting. I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, but there is a definite separation between undergrad and the law school campuses, both geographically and culturally. We just don't interact that often. This also extends to other grad schools (other than the business school).

Regarding gay students, yes...there are a number of openly gay students (both male and female) and I do not know of a single problem they have had. If something were to occur at the law school itself, I'm sure it would be shut down immediately by alot of angry supporters of gay rights. We are VERY protective of each other.

As to gay bars, there really isn't a bar that particularly advertises itself as such. I'm sure there are some in Norfolk and Richmond, but as for Williamsburg, I think you will be stuck going to Paul's or Greenleafe like the rest of us. But, they are all very accepting; I have gay friends who are openly affectionate and I am not aware of any problems they have encountered.

Thanks so much for doing this, OP!

1) What do you know about the quality of life in the Gradplex? I stayed there a night for Homecoming (went to W&M for undergrad), and it seemed pretty nice, but a source recently told me that he's heard some horror stories out of there.

2) Honestly: how helpful is Career Services?

3) Do you have a rough estimate of how many people are in-state? And of those, a rough estimate of how many are from NoVa?

4) What's been your single best moment at W&M so far? And your worst?

1) Gradplex is college housing. Its fine and easy if you want to do it 1L year. I would not stay there further than that. I have had friends who lived there, and they found it very convenient, and manageable.

As for horror stories, they all exist and possibly are true. But the worst actual experience I have heard is that people are constantly woken up and evacuated because someone made popcorn and it set off a fire alarm. I also think there is some hot water issues (as in not enough), but I honestly don't know.

2) OCS does the best they can. The programs are reasonable, but if you have been in the professional world at all, I don't think they particularly add a whole lot. They also tend to really stick to a template in terms of resume and cover letter help, and I'm not sure that is always the best advice.

HOWEVER, individually, the OCS Deans are amazing. If you make the effort to get yourself organized, they will go above and beyond to help edit, make contacts, and get you the real information you need. If (like me) you also don't know exactly where you want to end up, they will take the time to drill questions into you to help you figure it out.

3) I'm sure that information is available from Admissions, but I honestly do not know. I wouldn't even want to guess.

4) So an easy question eh? Other than moments when I got job offers, the best moment I remember is sitting with my close group of friends after spring exams 1L year. We were celebrating being finished, and happened to start talking about some current events, and the discussion started getting very technical and very legal. After a bit, one of my friends stopped us and pointed out that a single year ago, we would not have been able to have that conversation. It was a very real moment where I realized how much I had learned and how much I really enjoyed the subject matter. Really helped affirm my place at the school and in this career. However, my best moment was getting a job for 2L summer and clerkship.

The worst moment is probably currently. I really enjoy the work I'm doing in a number of different things, but it just all happens to hit at once during 2L year. I am finishing my student Note (writing requirement), working on a journal Ed Board, working an externship, studying for class, involved in a big extracurricular activity, and finding anytime to do things....yeah, not sure where it all goes. Its the first time of school I've felt really overwhelmed. That being said, I have a great support system and will get through it. But it is tough.

Thank you for doing this! I got into W&M and originally felt really hesitant about it due to rankings. But I want to work in VA or DC, and with their scholarship I could graduate debt free.

You mentioned you were hesitant too. What changed your mind?

So my first thing, and it is nearly heresy on TLS, is that apart from the top 8-10 schools (maybe all of the T14), I don't think you should put a lot of weight in the schools rank. There is not much different between the next 20 schools for those in the top third of their class, at least in my personal experience. I'm sure people on here will disagree.

When I was choosing schools, I had questions about location, debt, ability to find a job, etc. Probably similar to most incoming law students. What sealed it for me was visiting the school, and meeting with Dean Douglas and a few current students. As I may have mentioned, I took some time off before law school, and when I honestly sat and thought about it, I realized I wanted a school where I thought I could excel, and stand out as more than just a number. The class size here, as well as the community, really made me feel like this was the right choice.

Not to be too cheesy, but one of the selling points W&M puts out alot is the "collegiate atmosphere." Its a real thing. If I miss a class, I have notes in my email before I even ask. There are doctrines and areas I understand better than others, and I will sit and talk about it, and the areas I don't get, my friends are more than happy to sit and work through it until I do. The whole situation makes my stress level manageable and the workload seem a little more reasonable. And for me, that's a huge benefit, over any particular ranking. I will also say, I have a friend who transferred to a top ranked school, is still doing very well, but is much less happy. She and I will be working at comparable firms, and I will have much less debt. Win for me, I think.