Loyola Law Chicago - Worth It? If so advice for a 0L? Forum

[Solarman]

Hi everyone!

I'd like to know if its worth attending and earning a law degree from Loyola Law in Chicago. I know that the typical answer is NO IT IS NOT WORTH IT!

HOWEVER, I do have some conditions that make my case unique and I think may be a game-changer. I'm looking for any advice from people who are actually in the position I would be in if I go. It would be much appreciated!

I wasn't particularly a great student. I partied a decent amount in C\college but was very active in work, fraternity executive board, and even TA'd a class for a year. I am not planning on continuing the party lifestyle in law school. I had A's and B's with a B+ average coming out of an average ranked Big Ten school with an International Relations and Business degree. Since then I've worked an internship with a U.S. congressman in Chicago and am now in the renewable energy/solar business for about a year now. And I love it. However a lot of the higher ranking players in the industry are attorneys, as the energy industry is heavily regulated and politicized. It's a field where attorneys who have experience in energy are very much sought after. And I would very much like to stay in this field as an attorney. I took the LSAT and was accepted to Loyola Law school after getting a 157. I don't think I will get any financial aid, and will most likely pay sticker price...

My advantages are:
- (1-2) years of experience in the renewable energy business (where there are a lot of attorneys I work with and legal work)
-My dad is a practicing attorney in international law, immigration, and now Energy (How I got my current job, and a lucky and good connection for post-law)
- Parents will be willing to help with paying for law school (probably about 20-30% of the cost)
- Will be commuting therefore eliminating cost of living drastically.

Considering my experience and my very lucky connection being my dad, is it worth going to Loyola??? I know its a loaded question, so go easy on me!

[lymenheimer]

Obviously not supposed to answer this since I'm a 0L, but whatever. If you are guaranteed a job after school with a salary that you are comfortable with being able to service your debt, then sure. My guess would be that this is not the case and so I would assume you should retake at least for a scholarship so you are not paying sticker. Also, some people may chuckle at your assumed prestige of 2 years of "work experience" when some people have 10+ going into law school.

Tl;dr - Your conditions aren't that unique or game changing unless you have a guaranteed job that can service your debt.

[Traynor Brah]

It could make sense, I suppose, but only if you were getting serious financial aid, which you're not. Retake the LSAT, substantially improve (i.e. at least mid-160s), and try again next year; you're going to unnecessarily spend >100K for what is likely going to be a pretty marginal career boost (if there is any career boost).

Also FYI your case is really in no way unique.

[acr]

Work experience + family connections + mediocre undergrad GPA = retake for NU

Don't go anywhere in Chicago if it's not NU or UChicago. You could swing NU with a 169 or 170 and a couple years of work experience.

[priscillaclay]

mod edit: SPAM

[Mullens]

Do. Not. Do. This. It will ruin your life. Based on what you posted, you're looking at over $200,000 in debt and low chance of finding a good job to service it, even with connections in Chicago. Are these renewable energy companies even hiring fresh law school graduates?

You have to retake the LSAT, put in a good effort (ideally to 170+), and at the very least get a full ride to Loyola. There's a huge gap in Chicago between UChicago/Northwestern and the rest of the law schools in Chicago. Only 55% of Loyola grads got jobs as lawyers within 9 months of graduation.

[acr]

Do. Not. Do. This. It will ruin your life. Based on what you posted, you're looking at over $200,000 in debt and low chance of finding a good job to service it, even with connections in Chicago. Are these renewable energy companies even hiring fresh law school graduates?

You have to retake the LSAT, put in a good effort (ideally to 170+), and at the very least get a full ride to Loyola. There's a huge gap in Chicago between UChicago/Northwestern and the rest of the law schools in Chicago. Only 55% of Loyola grads got jobs as lawyers within 9 months of graduation.

I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you say and the general message of your post that NU or C are musts or at the very least Loyola for free

BUT

how do you figure this will be over $200,000 of debt?

he's living at home for free

Loyola's tuition is 44K per year x 3 years = 133K

And parents are financing 25%

This means that the debt would be about half of that i.e. ~100K. Not to mention that OP has 2 years of work experience so I'm assuming he has some money saved up to put toward law school (maybe)

Still definitely not worth it to take out 100K for Loyola but 100K is significantly different (not AS life ruining) than the $200K figure you threw out there

[Solarman]

Thank you all for your advice. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have used the word unique for my situation. I meant to point out that there are certain factors that I am lucky enough to have that may change the situation for me.

The truth is, in the worst case scenario, I would have work from my family's firm to ride on while looking for something more permanent in the event that I am not able find work within 9 months.

However, in energy/renewable energy law, I see that it seems to be a very very rare field where people (especially attorneys) have experience in. I'm hoping that with the connections that I do have in the field now and the experience and familiarity with energy policy, investment, and solar project management, I would find work soon after law school. Especially at the business that I'm currently at, they are currently looking for attorneys with solar/energy experience, and can't seem to find many good candidates. and yes i would be saving up maybe around 10K for law school. Not a lot, but would bring down the cost just a bit.

Lastly, I also am constantly reminded by my friends and family, that this would be a LONG-TERM investment. finding work within 9 months of graduating (at least to a 0L like me) I wouldn't say is a deal breaker. I would hope that within 1-2 years I can find a decent paying job in energy law and go on IBR to pay loans until I receive enough experience to hit a six figure job. Its really just a matter of getting that first job in the field, which I hope my current 2 years would solve. From what I have learned, energy is key to the survival of civilization as a whole, and as the world GDP continues to grow, and nations develop, the demand for energy (especially clean energy) will consistently and significantly rise. I see lots of potential in the field, and man, I can tell you now, no business decision or financial decision can be made without going through an attorney first... NOTHING... due to the heavy government regulation on the businesses in the U.S. and in almost every country we have built solar farms in.

I may get a lot of harsh responses for this. but after that 9 month mark, and that first job, does the ranking of loyola really make a difference in moving up in the ladder? I feel that ranking and grades are important for the FIRST job hunt. But if you are lucky to land that, the experience from that 1st job will carry you through the rest of your career? Am I wrong about this? please feel free to correct me.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your input!

[BigZuck]

If the school can get you the job you want and not saddle you with too much debt then yeah, it's worth it. Can this school do that? You seem to think you have the connections to get the job, and you think the debt won't be unbearable. So don't you have your answer already?

What exactly are you looking for from TLS? If you're asking whether someone in your shoes should do this, then the answer is no, from our point of view. That's because the job placement at that school is bad, so it's unlikely to get you a good job assuming you have to rely on the job placement ability of the school generally. And, we are suspicious of your connections being strong enough or willing enough to get you a job. And, we are doubtful of the potential to eventually get a good job if you're searching for over 9 months. And, we are doubtful that you'll be able to live at home and save a ton of money over the course of 3 years. And, we are doubtful that even if you did all that, you'd be able to find something that justifies 100K+ debt. And, we are doubtful that you wouldn't regret not having a better school on your resume at some point down the line.

We just don't see it. Signing on to a bad school for at least 100K debt because you think you'll be able to save a bunch of money by living at home and you think that as a kid in his early 20s you have the requisite connections to get you the job you want just doesn't sound like a good plan to us. But if you see it, and you see it clearly, then go for it.

[Traynor Brah]

If the school can get you the job you want and not saddle you with too much debt then yeah, it's worth it. Can this school do that? You seem to think you have the connections to get the job, and you think the debt won't be unbearable. So don't you have your answer already?

What exactly are you looking for from TLS? If you're asking whether someone in your shoes should do this, then the answer is no, from our point of view. That's because the job placement at that school is bad, so it's unlikely to get you a good job assuming you have to rely on the job placement ability of the school generally. And, we are suspicious of your connections being strong enough or willing enough to get you a job. And, we are doubtful of the potential to eventually get a good job if you're searching for over 9 months. And, we are doubtful that you'll be able to live at home and save a ton of money over the course of 3 years. And, we are doubtful that even if you did all that, you'd be able to find something that justifies 100K+ debt. And, we are doubtful that you wouldn't regret not having a better school on your resume at some point down the line.

We just don't see it. Signing on to a bad school for at least 100K debt because you think you'll be able to save a bunch of money by living at home and you think that as a kid in his early 20s you have the requisite connections to get you the job you want just doesn't sound like a good plan to us. But if you see it, and you see it clearly, then go for it.

[Solarman]

Yes. Your right I do have my answer. I totally understand all of those doubts that you have. I came here to TLS to simply to explain my situation and what I think the pros are in order to receive more sound criticism on my situation from experienced students and graduates. Really to check my own understanding of law school and graduate statistics. Just doing the most research I can possibly do. And at this point I believe I have found what I was looking for from TLS-- a consensus among your opinions. And I think the consensus is clear. Do not go... unless your confident about your connections and/or good class ranking/ ability to pay off 100K.

While I do feel confident in my connections- as they are family connections- I acknowledge that the main issue is the high amount of debt that i would have to accumulate over the 3 years of school. If there was anyway to minimize that debt or eliminate it, I would not hesitate to go. The job placement for legal jobs are at 53% for loyola, jobs that are JD advantaged around 10-12% which adds up to about 63% of decent jobs. While that is close to half. that is within a 9-month period. And within that 9 month period, a good portion of that time is mostly spent studying for the bar exam. Although I know that you are supposed to line up work before you even graduate, I would still like to see real statistics of a more long-term job placement study. Perhaps one that shows earnings and employment rates 2-10 years down the road. I understand that it is incredibly important to find work right away, but time and time again I can't seem to find info that shows if things get better or stay awful after that 9-month period... and to see past that short sightedness of 9months is an incredibly important factor. You must agree on that at least.

In addition, I have asked my employers if they would hire me after law school for contractual in-house work at the office, and they said it would be highly likely. I also think that by the time I finish the bar, if lets say I were to start law school fall 2017, I would enter the legal market in the year 2020. Seeing how the number of law school applicants, entering 1L students, and law graduates have been consistently & significantly falling across the board (& yes at loyola as well) in the last 7 years since the recession while at the same time the economy has been slowly improving, I'm hopeful that the situation will improve in the next 5 years.. Obviously though I know I cannot rely on this information. Just speculating & playing devil's advocate.

In the end, I totally understand the pitfalls of going to a middle tier law school and paying full price. But I have spent a decent amount of time in law offices, revising contracts, and clerking to know that I am pretty confident in enjoying the work. And knowing myself I believe I would be rather well off absorbing information in law school. fingers crossed.

My current plan is now this. I will spend another year at my current job, get some more "experience" in the field I would like to stay in, retake the LSAT for a score of 162-165 (I doubt I can go any higher than that...) and apply for some kind of merit based scholarship. Worst case scenario, I will end up going to Loyola, try and do the best I can first year full time, then will switch to part time for the rest of the schooling to work part time back at my current job or another while living at home to pay off loans (or a decent portion of it). And of course have my parents help me a little along the way.

Perhaps its not a great school, but to become a practicing lawyer in a new and growing mutli-disciplinary field in which I may have a decent shot in accessing, might... just might be worth it.

By the way for an experienced attorney in the energy field-- renewable or other-- the salary is easily well into a six figures. And with the experience and familiarity I am getting now, I couldn't be more sure I would be totally willing to work up to it.

Thanks again everyone for your honest opinions. I can only bust my ass and hope for the best!

[Traynor Brah]

Do not go... unless your confident about your connections and/or good class ranking/ ability to pay off 100K.

That is absolutely not the consensus. Nobody said these things. I'll spit some TLS dogma:

You should have little reason to think your connections are so strong and your background experience so valuable as to make you a more viable candidate for biglaw employment even as a top student at Loyola compared to one at NU or Uchi (or a vast number of other far better schools), especially considering how saturated Chicago's legal market is, and double especially considering how small the practie area you claim to have an advantage in is.

You have absolutely no reason to think you will be anything better than a median student at Loyola; there is no reasonable way to predict performance as a 0L, and you must assume that everyone will be about as smart and talented and hardworking as you.

100K in debt is not a good move for a place like Loyola, and just in general is a very poor investment of your money and time, because Loyola has dogshit employment statistics, and because if you are so lucky to get a decent job as an attorney from Loyola, odds are you will be making 60K or less, which is a suboptimal debtload, especially when the debt load is this high because you performed quite poorly on a very learnable test.

[Mullens]

I think your plan might work out okay, but there are some other things you need to consider:

1. Your understanding of the 9 month graduation statistic is flawed. The majority of high-end legal jobs hire before students take the bar. In fact, the majority of legal hiring for biglaw jobs happens between 1L and 2L. Further, the students who do not get these jobs are not just sitting around waiting to pass the bar to apply to jobs. Everyone is applying for jobs during 3L, while studying for the bar, while waiting for bar results, and in the 3-4 months after bar results that still falls in the 9 month window. The fact that barely half of Loyola graduates after 9 months should scare you. Those people are unemployed and likely have six-figure debt they cannot pay.

2. Connections are never secure. Something might happen to your family connections in the next 4-5 years (connection leaves job, there is a family falling out, etc.). What might happen is entirely unknowable and unpredictable, but it would be better for you to retake the LSAT and aim higher to plan for this contingency. While this might not seem likely, it is something to consider. If you want to further your personal connections through working in the industry, working for an extra year while retaking the LSAT so you can get a higher scholarship or go to a better school is the best of both worlds and is a great idea. You could graduate with no debt and better connections. Heck, you might not even have to live at home to do it. I also think this is a good idea because I agree that solar is an industry with great growth potential. IMO, companies in industries like that tend to merge and get bought out.

3. Hiring in energy/renewable energy law. You seem to have some information about legal hiring in the field, but how deep is your understanding? Are the companies really hiring fresh law school graduates with zero legal experience from schools like Loyola? What credentials other than some experience in the industry are they looking for? Top schools and grades? Experience doing energy legal work at a biglaw firm? I highly recommend getting a fuller picture of what makes a "good candidate" to fully inform your decision.

4. Other basic misunderstandings. There are some other things in your post that I think are incorrect and might be worth correcting. Law school applications are expected to be up this year. I would hesitate to base your decision at all about the number of applicants and graduates as it's difficult to predict and hard to know how technology changes the legal profession. Prestige matters. Prestige matters in the legal profession right now probably more than any other profession. Your dad graduated in an era when there were far fewer graduates and the school you attended did not matter nearly as much. That simply is not true anymore. Grades can also matter past your first job. This varies depending on what kind of job you are seeking, but many jobs will ask for a transcript, even 5+ years after graduation. JD Advantage jobs are not created equal. At some top schools, they are mostly excellent jobs (Stanford and Northwestern publish more detailed stats about JD Advantage jobs to show this). At lower ranked schools they are likely not nearly as good.

Regardless of the information above, I think your plan to retake the LSAT is a good one, but you should be shooting much higher than 165. The LSAT is an incredibly learnable test and there is no reason you should be starting your legal career with 100k+ debt from Loyola when the only thing stopping you is the ability to master a single test. This forum has incredible LSAT resources and study plans. Use them.

[Solarman]

I think your plan might work out okay, but there are some other things you need to consider:

1. Your understanding of the 9 month graduation statistic is flawed. The majority of high-end legal jobs hire before students take the bar. In fact, the majority of legal hiring for biglaw jobs happens between 1L and 2L. Further, the students who do not get these jobs are not just sitting around waiting to pass the bar to apply to jobs. Everyone is applying for jobs during 3L, while studying for the bar, while waiting for bar results, and in the 3-4 months after bar results that still falls in the 9 month window. The fact that barely half of Loyola graduates after 9 months should scare you. Those people are unemployed and likely have six-figure debt they cannot pay.

2. Connections are never secure. Something might happen to your family connections in the next 4-5 years (connection leaves job, there is a family falling out, etc.). What might happen is entirely unknowable and unpredictable, but it would be better for you to retake the LSAT and aim higher to plan for this contingency. While this might not seem likely, it is something to consider. If you want to further your personal connections through working in the industry, working for an extra year while retaking the LSAT so you can get a higher scholarship or go to a better school is the best of both worlds and is a great idea. You could graduate with no debt and better connections. Heck, you might not even have to live at home to do it. I also think this is a good idea because I agree that solar is an industry with great growth potential. IMO, companies in industries like that tend to merge and get bought out.

3. Hiring in energy/renewable energy law. You seem to have some information about legal hiring in the field, but how deep is your understanding? Are the companies really hiring fresh law school graduates with zero legal experience from schools like Loyola? What credentials other than some experience in the industry are they looking for? Top schools and grades? Experience doing energy legal work at a biglaw firm? I highly recommend getting a fuller picture of what makes a "good candidate" to fully inform your decision.

4. Other basic misunderstandings. There are some other things in your post that I think are incorrect and might be worth correcting. Law school applications are expected to be up this year. I would hesitate to base your decision at all about the number of applicants and graduates as it's difficult to predict and hard to know how technology changes the legal profession. Prestige matters. Prestige matters in the legal profession right now probably more than any other profession. Your dad graduated in an era when there were far fewer graduates and the school you attended did not matter nearly as much. That simply is not true anymore. Grades can also matter past your first job. This varies depending on what kind of job you are seeking, but many jobs will ask for a transcript, even 5+ years after graduation. JD Advantage jobs are not created equal. At some top schools, they are mostly excellent jobs (Stanford and Northwestern publish more detailed stats about JD Advantage jobs to show this). At lower ranked schools they are likely not nearly as good.

Regardless of the information above, I think your plan to retake the LSAT is a good one, but you should be shooting much higher than 165. The LSAT is an incredibly learnable test and there is no reason you should be starting your legal career with 100k+ debt from Loyola when the only thing stopping you is the ability to master a single test. This forum has incredible LSAT resources and study plans. Use them.

I really appreciate the way you respectfully addressed my points with constructive criticism. This is a great example of the kind of response I was hoping for.

1. Thank you for this info. This is something I didn't consider initially, I was thinking that people were more looking for internships and clerkships during law schools for the summer and then for career positions following graduation/bar exam. I'm glad you brought this to my attention, and it makes a lot of sense. I must look more into the process of finding work as a student.

2. This is also true. I was able to get my current work partly due to the fact that the company I am with is still very young/new, around 2-3 years old (as a lot of solar development companies are) and may not survive the next 4-5 years as you mentioned. My dad however, is a saint. He's financially helped me my brother and 2 semi-adopted friends/brothers of mine through college, and has expressed to me that he is willing to help me through law school and tells me not to worry about finding work after graduation... To be quite honest, if I didn't have his support, I would most likely not pursue law school. It may be risky as you mentioned, but I trust that its a much smaller risk with him.

3. This is also something your right about. I do not know exactly what qualifies a recent law grad for a job in solar. Generally companies are looking for attorneys who already have experience, not so much recent graduates. However I have been told that experience working in the business itself prior to law school, understanding the cash flows, development/financial/construction process, and what I suppose would be considered paralegal work in the field is rare and beneficial as attorneys must understand the marketing, business, and even the engineering side of things in order to help negotiate contracts. However I do not know to what extent it would aid someone in finding an attorney job, especially if I only have 2 years of it. I will definitely look further into this in the next year.

4. I can understand these points. Things have changed from what I understand since people my dads age were in school. JD advantage jobs do not = good salaries, and I'm glad you mentioned the transcript request is normal 5+ years after graduation.

Sometimes I wonder why it is that someone who just wants a higher education has to face all these pitfalls and negative consequences for pursuing it. Its education for god sakes! I'm not trying to become president of the U.S.... I suppose this is directly addressing the price of law school.

As you say, the plan to retake the LSAT for a 165+ is the best I can do for now. It is learnable thats true. I just have to really try harder than I did the first time.

Also if any of you aren't bored of this thread already, do you think going part time after the 1st year to "pay as you go" a good idea? bad idea?

Thank you all once again.