Post-Undergrad Crisis / Seeking Advice Forum

[SD1992]

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I graduated from college this spring where I majored in Philosophy and studied contemporary ethical issues in law and society. I originally planned on taking a two-year hiatus from any sort of schooling to mature and gather enough information to make a well-reasoned decision on whether or not law school is the right path for me.

I knew that I enjoyed studying legal issues academically. I also had an internship with a county court following graduation that gave me exposure to real-world legal issues and reinforced my interest in pursuing law professionally.

Things have been slowly going downhill, though. I've spent the past five months inquiring with every law firm I can find that has a position I might qualify for.

As recommended here and elsewhere, I started with BigLaw positions -- mostly "legal assistant" positions (and all of the synonymous roles such as "project assistant," "case assistant," "support assistant," etc.), as well as positions that deal with less substantive work (e.g. "conflicts analyst assistant"). These are typically programs that employ young professionals coming straight out of undergrad. That includes almost every major firm in every major city throughout the United States. The problem with these positions is that they are extremely competitive.

Despite interviewing well with numerous firms and receiving very positive feedback (I've even heard, "We think you're a perfect fit for our team, but..."), I have not received an offer. This isn't terribly surprising to me -- I have a 3.6 cumulative GPA, one law-related internship, no relevant work experience, no personal connections in BigLaw, and the nearest metropolitan area is more than four hours away from where I live. These firms can go into their own backyard and recruit from the world's elite schools and find summa cum laude students who have significant amounts of relevant experience. Unfortunately I've exhausted all of my BigLaw options and nobody is willing to roll the dice on me.

My secondary option was the lower-tier support staff and related positions at non-mega firms and federal, state, and local courts. I thought I might be able to find work as a secretary, receptionist, file/records clerk, or court runner. But these employers typically ask for several years of relevant experience at most of these positions. And as it turns out, there are a lot of law school students from unaccredited or bottom-tier schools who are seeking these positions to get their foot in the door and make some professional connections. After sending out dozens of targeted applications for positions like these at law firms all throughout the state, I haven't earned a single call-back.

My third order of action was to tap into my network looking for advice on how to break in. However, every single lawyer I've spoken with is under the impression that law firms -- outside of the NYC/Chicago/LA/DC mega-firms -- just don't have positions for people like me. I've been told that I might be able to volunteer if getting exposure to the field is my goal, but my inquiries about volunteer opportunities have been met with responses to the effect of, "Thanks! But no thanks."

My difficulties with finding law-related work are worrying in part because I've been advised not to go to law school by lawyers who have told me repeatedly that the market for recent law school graduates is absolutely horrible. I suppose I thought I was a special snowflake and that the information might not apply to me, but my recent attempts to get a job have left me reconsidering the advice.

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My situation is compounded by the fact that I have found it extremely difficult to convince any non-legal employer that I'm going to stick around. I thought to myself, "If I can't find a job that's going to allow me to determine whether law school is the right path for me, my next move should be to find a job that's going to help me pay the bills while I develop transferable skills." I've asked every lawyer I've contacted to give me a short list of skills that they believe are crucial to succeeding as a lawyer. One of those skills, for example, is the ability to develop clients. So, I decided I would put my search for a law-related job to the side and focus on finding a job that would allow me to, among other things, build "client development skills."

One substantial problem, though, is that all of my academic and professional accomplishments show a high level of devotion to legal and social issues. My talents, skills, motivations, values, knowledge, and interests are useful for, almost exclusively, some sort of law-related job. I don't have the education or work experience to earn an opportunity in any other professional field. And sub-professional employers, for the most part, are not willing to hire and train someone who is clearly not a long-term option (those that are willing, of course, being the employers that expect attrition and turnaround -- read: menial jobs in awful work conditions). I had an interview for a sales representative position. The interviewer took a particular interest to my undergrad major, so I went on about two lengthy papers I authored and put a ton of work into: one on preimplantation genetic diagnosis and the legal landscape, and the other on the application of the disparate impact rule of law to environmental permitting. After that we discussed my resume, specifically my major GPA (3.92) and the representative courses I had included on it (e.g., Philosophy of Law, Criminal Justice, Environmental Ethics & the Law, Biomedical Ethics & the Law, Race & the Law, Sex & Gender & the Law). The interviewer immediately followed that up by expressing that the company wasn't looking for someone who might leave for a different opportunity, professional or educational. And very soon after our interview I was informed that the company would be looking for different candidates.

Completely out of money and options, I took the best and most immediate thing that became available to me. So, for the past few months, I have worked as a crew member of a fast food restaurant in a low-income neighborhood. As can be expected, I work inconvenient hours and make minimum wage. The work I do is meaningless and boring...and often disgusting -- yesterday I cleaned a bloody mess out of the men's bathroom toilet. Despite that, I've tried to have a good attitude about it and I've put forth my best effort. I have refined my customer service skills, for example -- that's something I work hard to improve at every day on the job. I've done well enough that my supervisor and coworkers recently agreed that I ought to be promoted. When the regional manager stopped in and heard about the matter she said, "Isn't that the kid who had the law internship and wants to go to law school?" Soon after that I was informed that I would not be promoted.

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At this point in time I am very lost. It's unclear to me whether law school is the right path because I can't find any opportunities for exposure to the field -- I absolutely love studying and discussing legal issues, but I have no idea if I would or wouldn't love practicing law. And it's even more unclear to me what the right path might be if not law school. I have first-hand experience with the difficulties of landing a law-related job that ultimately drive so many debt-ridden law school graduates to severe depression and lifelong anguish. The people beating me out for every single job I have applied for are the same people that I'll be competing against for jobs down the road if I commit to law school.

Am I overlooking some area of opportunities? Are there other jobs out there that are good opportunities for people who think they might want to go to law school? Is there a field that values strong research, writing, and analytical skills? Are there employers out there that might be excited about hiring someone in spite of the fact that they might leave in a year or two to go to law school? Is there some specific way I should go about approaching law firms for volunteer opportunities? What other things can I do to get meaningful exposure to the every-day intricacies of life as a lawyer before committing to law school? How else do I determine whether law school is the right path for me?

I would specifically love to hear from anybody who entered the workforce after undergrad before committing to law school. What did you do, and how did it help shape your decision to go to law school?

I would really appreciate anybody's thoughts. Thanks.

[totesTheGoat]

First off, you're approaching this with the right mentality. It's not much right now, but your work ethic and mentality will pay off in the future. The way that you've stepped through all of the types of jobs until you found one that could pay the bills is a frustrating process, but it shows that you've got your head screwed on straight.

Am I overlooking some area of opportunities?

Look for a sales position. There are tons of "any bachelor's will do" sales/retention positions that, while not particularly glamorous, will give you customer service type experience in a more professional setting. I know that group healthcare sales/retention is big now, so maybe look into that. At the very least, you'll have a job that's making $35k or more, and you'll be getting valuable experience dealing with customers that is a great intangible for law practice.

Are there other jobs out there that are good opportunities for people who think they might want to go to law school?

At this point, I'd drop the "think they might want to go to law school" part from your mind. Not because you shouldn't go to law school, but because it sounds like your interest in law school is coming through so much in your interviews that you end up sabotaging your chances. Make sure you're acting excited for the job you're applying for instead of presenting yourself as a person who needs a paycheck for a little while before they hop ship and go to school again.

Is there a field that values strong research, writing, and analytical skills?

There are plenty, but they're careers of their own. They don't hire people in temp positions for those jobs because your "strong" skills are still quite rough around the edges and are going to take 6 months to a year to hone down. Then you've got only a year of productivity before you take off for school.

Are there employers out there that might be excited about hiring someone in spite of the fact that they might leave in a year or two to go to law school?

Landscapers? Roofers? The temp market isn't really great for people trying to hone their skills for law school.

Is there some specific way I should go about approaching law firms for volunteer opportunities?

Keep spamming your resume. Scrub it of anything that would make them think that you're only going to be around a couple years. Look for positions in smaller firms. Look for anything. You want to be getting your name in the hat every time a paralegal clerk position opens, every time a secretary position opens, every time a conference room coordinator opens, every time an HR assistant opens. Your effort should be spent finding some way to get in and get a job in the legal arena.

Also... consider working for them and going to school part-time. That way you're not selling them "I want to work here for 2 years while I have no marketable skills or productivity, and then I'm gonna bolt." Instead you're selling "I want to work for you for 5 or 6 years while I work through school, be productive for you during those years, and maybe even join you after."

What other things can I do to get meaningful exposure to the every-day intricacies of life as a lawyer before committing to law school? How else do I determine whether law school is the right path for me?

Network, network, network. Call up your undergraduate career services and tell them to connect you with some alumni who are lawyers. Invite those lawyers out for a cup of coffee, and talk to them about law. Tell them that you're very interested in law school, but you want to make sure it's the right decision. Ask them if they would tell you about how they chose law school, and how they knew it was the right choice for them.

I would specifically love to hear from anybody who entered the workforce after undergrad before committing to law school. What did you do, and how did it help shape your decision to go to law school?

My experience is very different than yours, so it may not be particularly applicable. My degree was computer engineering, and I got a job at a giant tech company. From there, I interacted occasionally with my in-house patent counsel, but I had made my mind up about law school in UG when I realized that I didn't love doing engineering for a job. I had zero legal experience going into law school, but I had met and talked to many patent attorneys to help shape my decision. Sometimes, just a simple cup of coffee is all that is needed to open doors.

[BmoreOrLess]

It's definitely not good for 'figuring out if you want to go to law school' but back office/middle office finance work seemed to be a plus at OCI, doesn't generally care about major, would love your GPA, and pays decently (but not well).

[k5220]

You could look into AmeriCorps - they typically offer year long service positions, so they don't care if you're going to bail for law school. There's a variety of fields you could go into depending on your background / interests. The pay's not good but it's a good experience and looks good on a resume. (This is what I did. I was already pretty sure I wanted to go to law school and just wanted a productive way to spend a year. AmeriCorps was mentioned in a handful of my acceptance letters, but I think that personalization might be more of a recruiting tactic than a reflection of admissions criteria).

Similarly, you could look into public service organizations or something else substantive related to a field of law you might want to go into. ROC might be a good fit given your stint in food service. Anything else you can tie to your past experience / demonstrated interests might also work.

Any real, productive work you can get will be good to help you figure out what's important to you, give you some perspective when you start school, and let you try to spin some skills you learned in later interviews.

You could ask some of the firms you've been applying to for "informational interviews," just so you can talk to one of the attorneys over coffee or something and ask them about what it's like or if they have any advice for you.

[CanadianWolf]

First, relax, since as a philosophy major with no marketable skills, you are the perfect candidate for law school. Second, have you taken the LSAT yet ?

[CanadianWolf]

Have you applied for paralegal positions in NYC. Wash DC or Chicago ? Most ask for a 2 year commitment & have formal training programs. Base salary is usually in the $40s and overtime can greatly increase one's earnings.