If one of the greater problems of the legal market are some law schools, why don't we just find a way to shut them down! Forum

[lillawyer2]

So what I gather from TLS and elsewhere, is the legal profession isn't the problem, lawyers aren't the problem, but law schools are the problem. We have a lot of crappy law schools pushing out graduates that won't get jobs. If we got rid of the crap schools and scam schools we'd have less lawyers roaming around. I mean we'd have a lot less. The older lawyers from baby boomer era and shortly after should be retiring soon...or die soon and that should open up some space. The top law schools can keep their high standards for admission, but should be forced to drop their tuition in order to coincide with the salaries of the legal market (or we can raise the salaries) lol

I think this will be a huge step in bring law back to greatness or at least a profession that makes sense.

[TLSModBot]

It's a lot more complicated than that. Yes there should be fewer law schools. But also the law firm hiring/promotion/billing model has been largely unchanged for the better part of a century, and protected from market forces by the bar (unauthorized practice of law etc.). Even that is a gross oversimplification - a LOT needs to change but there's no one actor who can fix it all.

The wind is changing already but it is gradual and organic.

[lillawyer2]

It's a lot more complicated than that. Yes there should be fewer law schools. But also the law firm hiring/promotion/billing model has been largely unchanged for the better part of a century, and protected from market forces by the bar (unauthorized practice of law etc.). Even that is a gross oversimplification - a LOT needs to change but there's no one actor who can fix it all.

The wind is changing already but it is gradual and organic.

What changes are already beginning?

[A. Nony Mouse]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

[Johann]

Even the shittiest law schools pumping out 50% employment is better than most college job rates. There just aren't enough legal jobs for all legal graduates much like there aren't enough sociology jobs for sociology majors. As anony hinted, ou can't just shut down the schools when people are paying money to go there. Law schools can't sustain the current rates though, and if it continues for 10 years I expect, 50+ law schools to close in the next 10 years. Hardly any schools are profitable anymore.

[lillawyer2]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Bulldoze the HELL out of them! I Mean we can all pitch in to purchase a wrecking ball or two. It will be worth it.


In all honestly I don't know. How do corporations that are corrupt usually get shut down? Petitions...

[PeanutsNJam]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Statutory mandated disclosure of employment stats. Subject to audit. Stats must be open and notorious on the law school's application, with the median salary and the distribution.

That will solve the problem.

[fats provolone]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Statutory mandated disclosure of employment stats. Subject to audit. Stats must be open and notorious on the law school's application, with the median salary and the distribution.

That will solve the problem.

"I got into law school! and some people make $190k a year right after graduation!"

[A. Nony Mouse]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Statutory mandated disclosure of employment stats. Subject to audit. Stats must be open and notorious on the law school's application, with the median salary and the distribution.

That will solve the problem.

You have much greater faith in human nature/intellect than I do. These stats are already out there. I think bulldozing is more realistic.

[lillawyer2]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Statutory mandated disclosure of employment stats. Subject to audit. Stats must be open and notorious on the law school's application, with the median salary and the distribution.

That will solve the problem.

You have much greater faith in human nature/intellect than I do. These stats are already out there. I think bulldozing is more realistic.

Yah! For bulldozing!!!!!!!

[PeanutsNJam]

It's just most people outside the T14 (even here at ~T20~ wustl) haven't heard of LST, much less look at 509s. You need to really shove it in people's faces. You'd be surprised how often I hear "we'll all get jobs". Like, no, 22% of 2014 grads did not get full time employment 9 months after graduation.

But if you're applying to some TTT thinking you're gonna be swimming in fast cars and beautiful women, and you see right there on the application something like: MEDIAN SALARY 60k, 40% UNEMPLOYMENT 9 MONTHS AFTER GRADUATION. Then you look at the number of people who make 6 figs and it says like THREE PERCENT OF GRADUATES. Maybe, just maybe.

The research for harmful effects of smoking was publicly available, but you had to print big skulls on the boxes so people would stop being willfully ignorant.

[TLSModBot]

It's a lot more complicated than that. Yes there should be fewer law schools. But also the law firm hiring/promotion/billing model has been largely unchanged for the better part of a century, and protected from market forces by the bar (unauthorized practice of law etc.). Even that is a gross oversimplification - a LOT needs to change but there's no one actor who can fix it all.

The wind is changing already but it is gradual and organic.

What changes are already beginning?

Relaxation of rules regarding the unauthorized practice of law allowing non-lawyers to provide more services, increasing service availability for those unable to afford lawyers and subjecting said forces to market forces for efficient pricing. Rule changes and case law that respond to the extraordinary cost of litigation. Greater demands for information about financials from law firms and about hiring results from law schools. Better technology providing certain legal services like document creation, contract analysis, and doc review more efficiently than roomfuls of contract attorneys could ever do.

I think PnJ is onto something regarding the information disclosure. Is it any weirder treating prospective students like we treat prospective investors? Make law schools fill out some yearly statements to the public and provide to students/prospective students upon application.

[Troianii]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Statutory mandated disclosure of employment stats. Subject to audit. Stats must be open and notorious on the law school's application, with the median salary and the distribution.

That will solve the problem.

You have much greater faith in human nature/intellect than I do. These stats are already out there. I think bulldozing is more realistic.

Not entirely. It seems excessive to me, but if people are fine with forcing private persons and institutions to do more, simply require job and salary reporting from grads (any doing so a part of the agreement to any scholarship), and require law schools to post them. That way we get the job reports that some schools make available and we can see on LST, but then we see a better picture of salaries, with none of that "this school decided not to release data" bs. Make it a part of accreditation.

I also think they should be required to submit those full admission graphs so we don't need to guess if lsn is accurate.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm just not confident that demand is ever going to shrink enough to put schools out of business without some kind of hammer in place as well. (Which isn't to say advertising the statistics more isn't a good thing, just that I don't think it's going to kill schools on its own.)

[fats provolone]

maybe if law school apps have to say "THIS WILL KILL YOU" in bold print at the top

[kcdc1]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Tie federal loan eligibility to school employment statistics/bar passage rates.

[fats provolone]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Tie federal loan eligibility to school employment statistics/bar passage rates.

better write your congress reps. DOE already tried that.

[Stardust84]

I disagree that its the law schools fault. Its the consumer, specifically the law students fault because they allow these schools to stay open. They are willing to fund these law schools with tuition, when they ought not to be going to law school in the first place because of their poor job prospects and just as poor chances of passing the bar. Sure some law schools may provide misleading data about employment etc, but given the gravity of making such a big career decision these students should be doing way more due diligence on their prospects and not allow themselves to be deluded when those prospects are apparent. Granted, enrollment from law schools has gone down considerably but not enough to close crappy law school's doors. Instead students who are even more unqualified and apparently misguided are able to get in because its less competitive.

[kcdc1]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Tie federal loan eligibility to school employment statistics/bar passage rates.

better write your congress reps. DOE already tried that.

Yep, wouldn't be easy to do. But this is the most realistic path to shutting down predatory schools.

[84651846190]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

Guillotines. Now.

[lacrossebrother]

We have established a national policy such that anyone who wants an education can get one. You need to rework that mission first and foremost before you try anything else. Would you establish castes? Brave new world?

[84651846190]

We have established a national policy such that anyone who wants an education can get one. You need to rework that mission first and foremost before you try anything else.

Yeah, there are more than a few people getting degrees who will never use them and should have never pursued them to begin with. Not everyone can become a neurosurgeon. Pretty dumb that politicians won't address this in any kind of sane way.

[Lawdork]

If nothing else, getting a law degree allows you to open up your own business with very minimal capital (the degree itself is 95% of the cost). No one is entitled to a salary.

[84651846190]

If nothing else, getting a law degree allows you to open up your own business with very minimal capital (the degree itself is 95% of the cost). No one is entitled to a salary.

There are a lot of things you can do to make money with no degree and minimal capital.

[fats provolone]

just require USNWR to rank all schools as tied for 1st and stop disclosing grades. then law firms will have to hire everyone.