government law - seeking more info Forum

[Troianii]

So for starters I'm a 0L. I've been tossing around the idea of government work and think it might be suitable for me. A lot of people avoid it because they have high debt levels and need a higher salary - I'm not in that position. I'm a senior in undergrad with about 15k in subsidized debt, and I have a GI bill that will cover the first 9months of law school and am in the process of applying for Voc rehab, which could extend that another 12 academic months, so I'd end up paying basically for one semester of law school. I anticipate graduating with 40-70k in debt, but I may well be able to graduate with less. I also have something of a cushion with some income from VA compensation - it's enough to pay for rent or a mortgage payment, in any case.

What I'm interested in is how government lawyers get raises. I was in the military and I assume that the government system is similar - and combination of years of experience and position to figure the salary, but if anyone has more direct info on this so I can gauge how much my salary should increase after x years, that'd be appreciated.

Also, I know that in many government jobs there is a preference for disabled combat vets - I fit the bill and the boost would certainly make me more comfortable when seeking a government job. But does anyone know if this kind of preference includes lawyers?

And I know that in most government jobs your military experience counts towards retirement, though there is sometimes a buy in - does anyone know if this is true for government lawyers as well?

Finally, when applying for jobs as a government lawyer, how much does your law school name count for?

Thanks for any responses.

[lapolicia]

The pay system for federal government attorney jobs is pretty similar to the military. In the vast majority of government legal positions in DC, it'll work like this:

Year 1: GS-11--around 64k
Year 2: GS-12--around 76k
Year 3: GS-13--around 91k
Year 4: GS-14--around 107k

After that in most positions raises slow down to around 4k a year until you are competitively promoted to a GS-15 (around 127k) and then they continue at around 4-6k for some years and then slow down a bit more unless you get SES. In some agencies GS-15 is part of the normal attorney career ladder so you get that promotion automatically at year 5 and don't have to compete. There's a few financial agencies that are not on the GS scale or start lawyers at a higher GS level than 11 like the SEC or OCC, and they pay significantly more both to start (around 100k) and throughout your career. There's also few others that actually start lawyers at a lower GS than 11 or stop the career ladder before 14, but these are pretty rare.

Promotions are automatic as long as your performance is at least "meets expectations". Some agencies have performance based bonuses and such that add on to your salary and other various quirks that tend to improve salary.

Attorney positions are excepted service jobs, so veteran's status is just a positive factor for the job. It is not nearly as much of a benefit as veteran's preference for competitive service federal jobs. Your military service counts for retirement and I believe for vacation accrual as well, just like for a non-lawyer federal position.

In terms of the law school name, it depends a lot on the agency and position. At my agency, it seems to count for a lot. At others, I've heard that it matters far less than grades and demonstrated interest. I will say that in general, it matter less than in biglaw, but your grades matter more. So for instance the government might hire someone from Fordham who has a top 1/3 GPA and relevant experience over someone who is median at Columbia and has no relevant experience. But this generally depends on the agency and even department within the agency.

Hope this helps!

[Troianii]

The pay system for federal government attorney jobs is pretty similar to the military. In the vast majority of government legal positions in DC, it'll work like this:

Year 1: GS-11--around 64k
Year 2: GS-12--around 76k
Year 3: GS-13--around 91k
Year 4: GS-14--around 107k

After that in most positions raises slow down to around 4k a year until you are competitively promoted to a GS-15 (around 127k) and then they continue at around 4-6k for some years and then slow down a bit more unless you get SES. In some agencies GS-15 is part of the normal attorney career ladder so you get that promotion automatically at year 5 and don't have to compete. There's a few financial agencies that are not on the GS scale or start lawyers at a higher GS level than 11 like the SEC or OCC, and they pay significantly more both to start (around 100k) and throughout your career. There's also few others that actually start lawyers at a lower GS than 11 or stop the career ladder before 14, but these are pretty rare.

Promotions are automatic as long as your performance is at least "meets expectations". Some agencies have performance based bonuses and such that add on to your salary and other various quirks that tend to improve salary.

Attorney positions are excepted service jobs, so veteran's status is just a positive factor for the job. It is not nearly as much of a benefit as veteran's preference for competitive service federal jobs. Your military service counts for retirement and I believe for vacation accrual as well, just like for a non-lawyer federal position.

In terms of the law school name, it depends a lot on the agency and position. At my agency, it seems to count for a lot. At others, I've heard that it matters far less than grades and demonstrated interest. I will say that in general, it matter less than in biglaw, but your grades matter more. So for instance the government might hire someone from Fordham who has a top 1/3 GPA and relevant experience over someone who is median at Columbia and has no relevant experience. But this generally depends on the agency and even department within the agency.

Hope this helps!

Well yeah that helps a lot! Much appreciated! I didn't think that government attorney compensation progressed that quickly. You always hear how they don't get paid dirt, and maybe that's the perspective of "big law or nothing", but those figures are more than enough for me. From all I'd heard the pay was far lower, and even then I was considering it.

If i might ask a few more questions: what are the prospects for federal work outside of DC? Are they more or less competitive? While understanding it will vary and generally not be a big factor, to what degree does veteran status help?

And with schools - what law schools are good for government work? Is there a certain thing I should be looking for? I assume that it's much more than the rankings - for example, I imagine that Fordham would be better than Ohio State, even though they're tied for #34 in US News.

For these government agencies, is it common to intern during summers at law school? Is there a site where I shouls look for openings at these agencies? And, in general, how competitive are these positions? And do you by chance know a ything about the process and pay for state work?

Again, thanks. You've been extremely helpful, and it's actually gotten me excited about it. I don't know how I never came cross it, but I didn't know government attorneys worked on that pay scale and advanced that fast. I made assumptions based on salary info from TLS, and so I'd gotten the idea that they'd start around 4-6k and then slowly advance, a few thousand a year. I didn't think they'd be earning six figures in their fourth year.

[TheSpanishMain]

Federal hiring is pretty competitive. At least as competitive as BigLaw. You can't count on it. It's a good goal, but you should go to a school that gives you a lot of options in case you can't land a federal gig.

As far as salary, keep in mind two things: a LOT of federal jobs are in DC, which has a high cost of living. Second, your civilian salary will not go as far as your military salary does. You won't get BAH. You'll have to pay for your health insurance and contribute to your retirement. Unless you stay in the reserves, you can't shop at the PX and commissary. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I see a lot of guys transitioning out of the military look at a salary of, say, 70k and think it's big money, forgetting how many more expenses they'll have in civilian life.

[Troianii]

Federal hiring is pretty competitive. At least as competitive as BigLaw. You can't count on it. It's a good goal, but you should go to a school that gives you a lot of options in case you can't land a federal gig.

As far as salary, keep in mind two things: a LOT of federal jobs are in DC, which has a high cost of living. Second, your civilian salary will not go as far as your military salary does. You won't get BAH. You'll have to pay for your health insurance and contribute to your retirement. Unless you stay in the reserves, you can't shop at the PX and commissary. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I see a lot of guys transitioning out of the military look at a salary of, say, 70k and think it's big money, forgetting how many more expenses they'll have in civilian life.

Fiest off thanks for the response, and the usernamd - sounds like you have an interest in "bucaneer" maritime history, am i right?

I've been out for a few years and am familiar with the benefits change - PX and commissary were nice and all, but I didn't see a major adjustment from losing access when I got out - I assume it would have been a bigger deal if I had a wife and kids.

Thanks for the info about the federal jobs - I thought they'd be competitive, but less so than big law. Do you know about state jobs for attorneys? Also, state and federal, does anyone know how becoming a judge works - rewuirements, competitiveness, etc.? I know it's not something I'll do out of law school, but that I'd a long term goal that has always been attractive to me.

Thanks again - I've found the advice and info from both of you to be very helpful.

[zot1]

A few things:

1. Yes, these positions are competitive.
2. It's not necessarily common, but interning with federal agencies can help you through honors program hiring.
3. Yes, those internships are hella competitive.
4. No one school helps. Just go to the best school you can afford. And do well grade wise.
5. People think government pay is bad because when government attorneys make 70-80k/year during second year, BigLaw attorneys make almost three times that.
6. Most, but not all programs are in DC. There are many agencies with branches all over the country. The difference is of course that an agency might hire 10 attorneys for DC but only two for ten nationwide branches. So it's easier to end up in DC. Thankfully I didn't.

I'm sure I missed some of your points. Sorry.

[Maplesyrup]

don't count on getting voc rehab, you may or you may not. i was denied but plan to appeal, obviously there are people who do get to use it for law school and if you are one of those people it will cover everything not just an extra 12 months.

[Troianii]

don't count on getting voc rehab, you may or you may not. i was denied but plan to appeal, obviously there are people who do get to use it for law school and if you are one of those people it will cover everything not just an extra 12 months.

I've heard they have some kind of program for when it runs out but I didn't think I thought it was some sort of half measure. Well, the more you know.

And yeah I don't really count on the VA to get anything done right the first time around - they seriously denied me for tinnitus. Worked around jets for three years - "oh yeah, there's no evidence of ringing in your ears." ^_- Ah, well, that's another thread, but yeah I'm not expecting anything to come of it. At the least I've got time to appeal if I get denied.

[Troianii]

A few things:

1. Yes, these positions are competitive.
2. It's not necessarily common, but interning with federal agencies can help you through honors program hiring.
3. Yes, those internships are hella competitive.
4. No one school helps. Just go to the best school you can afford. And do well grade wise.
5. People think government pay is bad because when government attorneys make 70-80k/year during second year, BigLaw attorneys make almost three times that.
6. Most, but not all programs are in DC. There are many agencies with branches all over the country. The difference is of course that an agency might hire 10 attorneys for DC but only two for ten nationwide branches. So it's easier to end up in DC. Thankfully I didn't.

I'm sure I missed some of your points. Sorry.

Thanks for the response - don't apologize, any bit helps and this thread has been really helpful so far

4. What I'm asking about is what determines "best school". Again, my sense is that what is considered a good school isn't always ranking - for example, Ohio State and Fordham are ranked the same, and I assume Fordham would look better on an app. It's not a huge difference I suppose, but I would guess that Fordham would be favored.

The rest I don't think requires clarification - thanks again.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I agree that school isn't really that important - the feds honestly hire from a huge range of schools (for instance, you can see a list of where recent DOJ entry level hires attended law school here: http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools). There are going to be some hiring authorities who like high rankings and want T6 grads, who won't care about either Fordham or OSU. But if you're dealing with someone who isn't pedigree-focused, your grades and experience will be much more relevant than which of those 2 schools you attend. Regional offices may have some preference for local grads, but again, depending on who's reading the applications, may not (and as noted, there are far fewer regional openings than there are in DC). You can't even say that going to school in DC gives you any edge, because there are so many law students in DC and the ones who want to work for the feds tend to self-select there.

I think state governments frequently favor grads of the local law school, mostly because getting those jobs is about experience/connections, and it's the local students who can do internships during the school year and network most easily to get to know people in state government jobs. State government often pays less than the feds, though.

Re: becoming a judge - depends on what kind of judge and the process used. Getting appointed as a federal judge is a lifetime gig (except for magistrate judges) and tends to be very political, in the sense that who you know matters a lot. Some states appoint judges, some elect them (which is a terrible system). Again, it's a lot about who you know, with the complication of having to negotiate elections in those states. It's not at all easy to become a judge, and many of the judges I know applied multiple times before getting appointed. What exact kinds of experience is required varies by the position (the requirements to be an appellate judge are different than for being a trial judge), and the makeup of the bench when the opening rolls around (for instance, most courthouses try to have a balance of judges who come from a civil vs. a criminal vs. a family law background, and if you're a criminal defense attorney at a time when your state/federal bench is filled with former criminal law people, you may have to wait a while).

[zot1]

My point, and following Nony, is that there isn't a one school per se. In my office there's a healthy mix of people who went to school in the top 30 and some who didn't (though still T1 FWIW).

I'd say going somewhere where it'd be easier for you to do externships with government agencies might help. For example, I went to UCI, close to government agencies in Orange County and LA. The UCs also have UCDC where you spend a semester in DC in a government agency. I didn't do that but I now think that may have actually helped me because of having the federal experience.

So I guess this is why I say/think school doesn't necessarily matter. Your experience within the school will matter more. So again, go to the best school you can afford.

[Troianii]

My point, and following Nony, is that there isn't a one school per se. In my office there's a healthy mix of people who went to school in the top 30 and some who didn't (though still T1 FWIW).

I'd say going somewhere where it'd be easier for you to do externships with government agencies might help. For example, I went to UCI, close to government agencies in Orange County and LA. The UCs also have UCDC where you spend a semester in DC in a government agency. I didn't do that but I now think that may have actually helped me because of having the federal experience.

So I guess this is why I say/think school doesn't necessarily matter. Your experience within the school will matter more. So again, go to the best school you can afford.

Thanks zot1 and A. Nony Mouse. I appreciate the responses. I'd prefer to work for the federal government for reasons too obvious to need stating, except that I've been away from the northeast for a long time and would like to go back. Maine is home, and from what I hear Maine law itself isn't necessarily bad (I've heard that the education the school offers is worthy of upper end of tier 2), but the legal market there is horrible - I remember reading somewhere that its literally the worst legal market in the country, evidenced by the *only* law school in the state only managing to get about 50% of its grads jobs that require a JD. :/ So that'd be great if I could get a good job there, but if not I'm open to moving. I'd rather have a good job away from home than be unemployed in my home state.

Thanks again for all the replies.

[zot1]

I'll echo others' sentiments that you can't bank on getting a federal government job. I did, but I was lucky AF. So many agencies said "no thanks." I could really be crying in the Vale right now if not for getting lucky last minute. I think a decent strategy is to be in a place where, if you can't get a BigFed job, you could still find something else, including clerkships (since this will keep your eligibility for the honors program).

Good luck!

[lapolicia]

I'll echo others' sentiments that you can't bank on getting a federal government job. I did, but I was lucky AF. So many agencies said "no thanks." I could really be crying in the Vale right now if not for getting lucky last minute. I think a decent strategy is to be in a place where, if you can't get a BigFed job, you could still find something else, including clerkships (since this will keep your eligibility for the honors program).

Good luck!

I really have to echo this. When I was applying for honors programs a few years ago, I was top 1/3 at a CCN with lots of public service experience and a pretty good interviewer. I got rejected from all 20 or so agencies I applied to except for one, where I miraculously got lucky and got an offer. Honors programs are insanely competitive--- absolutely do not pick a law school with federal government as the main consideration. Pick a law school based on it's private sector job placement, and then apply to honors programs when you are a 3L. If you don't get any, it is much easier to lateral into a federal government job than to get an entry level one.

[Troianii]

I'll echo others' sentiments that you can't bank on getting a federal government job. I did, but I was lucky AF. So many agencies said "no thanks." I could really be crying in the Vale right now if not for getting lucky last minute. I think a decent strategy is to be in a place where, if you can't get a BigFed job, you could still find something else, including clerkships (since this will keep your eligibility for the honors program).

Good luck!

I really have to echo this. When I was applying for honors programs a few years ago, I was top 1/3 at a CCN with lots of public service experience and a pretty good interviewer. I got rejected from all 20 or so agencies I applied to except for one, where I miraculously got lucky and got an offer. Honors programs are insanely competitive--- absolutely do not pick a law school with federal government as the main consideration. Pick a law school based on it's private sector job placement, and then apply to honors programs when you are a 3L. If you don't get any, it is much easier to lateral into a federal government job than to get an entry level one.

Thanks for the response (also zot1). I don't WANNA hear what you're saying, but it's good to know. :/ Obviously would love to jump straight into a federal job, but prefer knowing the real options.

[OutOfTheQuestion]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I've been cruising the search function for months and this was one of the more informative threads. To piggyback on some of the questions asked, does anyone have experience/information on getting a job with a fed agency (particularly as a trial attorney) without going through an Honors program and without going BigLaw? Is there a route that is plausible (ex: 4 yr ADA->fed)? For someone who doesn't necessarily want to go BigLaw but wants fed without putting all eggs in one basket for an honors program, what would folks suggest? (Disclaimer: 0L, I have a long time to think about this/career goals might change/can't count on any of these things actually happening)

[zot1]

The federal government from time to time hires for entry level positions outside of the honors programs, but these positions are extremely rare and more competitive than even the honors programs.

Outside of that, the only non-BigLaw story I know of is: district court clerkship -> boutique firm -> AUSA.

[Teoeo]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I've been cruising the search function for months and this was one of the more informative threads. To piggyback on some of the questions asked, does anyone have experience/information on getting a job with a fed agency (particularly as a trial attorney) without going through an Honors program and without going BigLaw? Is there a route that is plausible (ex: 4 yr ADA->fed)? For someone who doesn't necessarily want to go BigLaw but wants fed without putting all eggs in one basket for an honors program, what would folks suggest? (Disclaimer: 0L, I have a long time to think about this/career goals might change/can't count on any of these things actually happening)

I worked for a little over two years in a state agency doing labor law (mainly litigation before administrative bodies) before getting a job at a federal agency doing civil rights work (at a region, not in D.C). I didn't have good grades, went to a T-20, had good experience, good references and good writing samples. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

[newbienew]

Is usajobs.com the only good source for federal government jobs outside of DC?

[zot1]

Usajobs is the only source for federal jobs including DC. The government has to post all jobs there.

[encore1101]

We've had a few ADAS (~3) recently in the past year or so make the jump from NYC ADA --> AUSA.

I think its uncommon but it does happen on occasion. It's not something I would bank on.

[Teoeo]

Usajobs is the only source for federal jobs including DC. The government has to post all jobs there.

Not quite true. There are positions which are not posted to USAJobs, usually "mission critical" positions which need to be filled right away.

[zot1]

Usajobs is the only source for federal jobs including DC. The government has to post all jobs there.

Not quite true. There are positions which are not posted to USAJobs, usually "mission critical" positions which need to be filled right away.

My agency posts mission critical positions there too. Maybe it varies then? Based on my understanding of the regulations and MSPB decisions that deal with the competitive setvice, it seemed to me they all had to be posted there.

Where are these other positions posted?

[Teoeo]

Usajobs is the only source for federal jobs including DC. The government has to post all jobs there.

Not quite true. There are positions which are not posted to USAJobs, usually "mission critical" positions which need to be filled right away.

My agency posts mission critical positions there too. Maybe it varies then? Based on my understanding of the regulations and MSPB decisions that deal with the competitive setvice, it seemed to me they all had to be posted there.

Where are these other positions posted?

I think it depends on the agency. Sometimes it may be the agency website, sometimes it may be through a resume collection process via email. I agree that normally these positions get posted on USAJobs.

[zot1]

That makes sense.

I asked so others could have access to the info, btw. Not to pick on you.