IP law - how bad is it without a STEM background? Forum

[Troianii]

I have some varied interests in law. I'm very interested in Constitutional law, but that's kind of the gender studies of law school - unless you go to a top university, your job prospects with it aren't that good (this is, of course, based on what I have *heard* - I'm open to being corrected on anything I say here, because this is just based on what I've heard). Another field that I've been interested in is intellectual property, and the fact that there's currently a lot of money in that area makes me more interested in pursuing that area of law.

But I'm not majoring in STEM, so I couldn't enter patent law. What I'd like to know is if the big bucks in IP is pretty much all from patent law, or do other area of patent law - trademarks, copyright law, etc. - offer better employment prospects and salaries also? I assume that patent law pays better and is more secure an area of law than the non-patent portions of IP, but how big of a difference is it?

[Mullens]

I have some varied interests in law. I'm very interested in Constitutional law, but that's kind of the gender studies of law school - unless you go to a top university, your job prospects with it aren't that good (this is, of course, based on what I have *heard* - I'm open to being corrected on anything I say here, because this is just based on what I've heard). Another field that I've been interested in is intellectual property, and the fact that there's currently a lot of money in that area makes me more interested in pursuing that area of law.

But I'm not majoring in STEM, so I couldn't enter patent law. What I'd like to know is if the big bucks in IP is pretty much all from patent law, or do other area of patent law - trademarks, copyright law, etc. - offer better employment prospects and salaries also? I assume that patent law pays better and is more secure an area of law than the non-patent portions of IP, but how big of a difference is it?

There is an area of intellectual property law called "soft IP" which covers trademarks and copyrights. It's much harder to get into than generic biglaw though. If you're just chasing money, you shouldn't go to law school.

If you want to pursue constitutional law you need to go to HLS in the 1970s

[Troianii]

I have some varied interests in law. I'm very interested in Constitutional law, but that's kind of the gender studies of law school - unless you go to a top university, your job prospects with it aren't that good (this is, of course, based on what I have *heard* - I'm open to being corrected on anything I say here, because this is just based on what I've heard). Another field that I've been interested in is intellectual property, and the fact that there's currently a lot of money in that area makes me more interested in pursuing that area of law.

But I'm not majoring in STEM, so I couldn't enter patent law. What I'd like to know is if the big bucks in IP is pretty much all from patent law, or do other area of patent law - trademarks, copyright law, etc. - offer better employment prospects and salaries also? I assume that patent law pays better and is more secure an area of law than the non-patent portions of IP, but how big of a difference is it?

There is an area of intellectual property law called "soft IP" which covers trademarks and copyrights. It's much harder to get into than generic biglaw though. If you're just chasing money, you shouldn't go to law school.

If you want to pursue constitutional law you need to go to HLS in the 1970s

Thanks for the response.

[FSK]

Its out there, but its small. You're basically going to have to start in biglaw at a firm with a big soft IP group. From there, its a matter of getting into that group.

If you're a 0L, you should spend time figuring out what "soft Ip" is. Know what a trademark/advertising lawyer does, now how IP/Privacy intersect, know how big firms are combing these groups with their data privacy groups, figure out hte firms that have big copyright pracitces, figure out how those practices differ from entertainment, understand what entertainment is and how it isn't really IP, etc.

if you know the game going in you can end up in your field, there's actually a ton going on. You just need to be in the right place starting out.

I'd also say that 1) plan to be in NYC or LA, 2) attend a T6, because you're going to need to get offers from very specific firms so you need all the resume firepower you can get, and 3) alot of these opprotunities love related background experience. If you find an interest in 1st amendment law, the big firsm that do that hire former jounrlasts ALOT (look up levine sullivian koch & schultz).

Start with Chambers & Partners, but a few of hte big firms to hit on would be Loeb & Loeb, Mitchel Siblerberg & Knupp, Debevoise, Greenburg Traurig, Manatt Phelps, Arent Fox <- each has a focus on some of what I've described.

Once you've done ALL of this I can reccomned goiung to law school with this as your goal. Otherwise, you're going to get pushed out of it by better credentialed peolpe who ass backwards into the opprotunities you really need.

[totesTheGoat]

What I'd like to know is if the big bucks in IP is pretty much all from patent law, or do other area of patent law - trademarks, copyright law, etc. - offer better employment prospects and salaries also? I assume that patent law pays better and is more secure an area of law than the non-patent portions of IP, but how big of a difference is it?

The big bucks in IP are in patent. The soft IP market is quite similar to law in general ($70k unless you get one of the few biglaw jobs). The difference in pay between hard IP and soft is pretty noticeable. IP boutiques and mid-sized GP firms that have an IP section will pay at or around market ($150k range) for a patent attorney. The same firms will pay $60-80k for a soft IP attorney.

I echo what has previously been said about not pursuing the big bucks. Even those who are making $160k+ out of school are working really hard for it. You're essentially trading in any semblance of a balanced lifestyle for money. Unless you have a passion for law that doesn't revolve around making 6 figures, I'd think twice (read and understand flawschoolkid's post) about going to law school.

[fats provolone]

the question you should be asking is: how bad is it with le STEM?

[Troianii]

What I'd like to know is if the big bucks in IP is pretty much all from patent law, or do other area of patent law - trademarks, copyright law, etc. - offer better employment prospects and salaries also? I assume that patent law pays better and is more secure an area of law than the non-patent portions of IP, but how big of a difference is it?

The big bucks in IP are in patent. The soft IP market is quite similar to law in general ($70k unless you get one of the few biglaw jobs). The difference in pay between hard IP and soft is pretty noticeable. IP boutiques and mid-sized GP firms that have an IP section will pay at or around market ($150k range) for a patent attorney. The same firms will pay $60-80k for a soft IP attorney.

I echo what has previously been said about not pursuing the big bucks. Even those who are making $160k+ out of school are working really hard for it. You're essentially trading in any semblance of a balanced lifestyle for money. Unless you have a passion for law that doesn't revolve around making 6 figures, I'd think twice (read and understand flawschoolkid's post) about going to law school.

Thanks. That sounds close to what I had figured - somehow I was guessing that it was 70-100k, but none of that 120k+ stuff.

Like I've said in other threads before, and hinted at in this thread, I'm not just chasing the money, but like nearly everyone on TLS has said, yeah, I need to make some money. If I had a reasonable expectation of getting a job starting at 50k+ in the field (without going to a top20), then I'd run full board into Con law, but that's just not the case (as I've been told - but if anyone has any info to the contrary on that, I'm all ears, because there is nothing I'd want more than to go into Con law if I thought I could actually make a good living off it).

[Mullens]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

[Troianii]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

I assume none and none. I didn't look into it much because early on I heard that to make a decent living as a Constitutional lawyer you'd have to go to T14 (and outside of HYS it'd be rough), and that essentially all there is is to teach or represent cases on certain issues. *shrug* I won't be getting into any T14s. If I do, then I'll take another look at this.

Never really looked into it much further because, despite how much I've loved Con law (at least in the few classes I've taken which cover it in some depth), I'm not looking for a career where I'm going to bust my hump for nearly a decade trying to make it in and then have poor prospects of employment, and low wages if I get it.

[Companion Cube]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

I assume none and none. I didn't look into it much because early on I heard that to make a decent living as a Constitutional lawyer you'd have to go to T14 (and outside of HYS it'd be rough), and that essentially all there is is to teach or represent cases on certain issues. *shrug* I won't be getting into any T14s. If I do, then I'll take another look at this.

Never really looked into it much further because, despite how much I've loved Con law (at least in the few classes I've taken which cover it in some depth), I'm not looking for a career where I'm going to bust my hump for nearly a decade trying to make it in and then have poor prospects of employment, and low wages if I get it.

It's not just poor prospects, constitutional law lawyers aren't really a thing anymore. The closest is working in employment law (that's even what my con law professor did).

[Troianii]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

I assume none and none. I didn't look into it much because early on I heard that to make a decent living as a Constitutional lawyer you'd have to go to T14 (and outside of HYS it'd be rough), and that essentially all there is is to teach or represent cases on certain issues. *shrug* I won't be getting into any T14s. If I do, then I'll take another look at this.

Never really looked into it much further because, despite how much I've loved Con law (at least in the few classes I've taken which cover it in some depth), I'm not looking for a career where I'm going to bust my hump for nearly a decade trying to make it in and then have poor prospects of employment, and low wages if I get it.

It's not just poor prospects, constitutional law lawyers aren't really a thing anymore. The closest is working in employment law (that's even what my con law professor did).

Well I would presume that some people who study Con law - the hot shots in Con law classes at HYS - still are able to get jobs and (presumably "often) end up representing particular kinds of cases before courts (the "____ amendment" cases"), but that's pretty niche. So niche that I've referred to it as the "gender/women studies of law school."

[FSK]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

I assume none and none. I didn't look into it much because early on I heard that to make a decent living as a Constitutional lawyer you'd have to go to T14 (and outside of HYS it'd be rough), and that essentially all there is is to teach or represent cases on certain issues. *shrug* I won't be getting into any T14s. If I do, then I'll take another look at this.

Never really looked into it much further because, despite how much I've loved Con law (at least in the few classes I've taken which cover it in some depth), I'm not looking for a career where I'm going to bust my hump for nearly a decade trying to make it in and then have poor prospects of employment, and low wages if I get it.

It's not just poor prospects, constitutional law lawyers aren't really a thing anymore. The closest is working in employment law (that's even what my con law professor did).

Both my con law profs have been YLS->Feeder-> SCOTUS->Issues and Appeals group in DC -->Flaw School

[Companion Cube]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

I assume none and none. I didn't look into it much because early on I heard that to make a decent living as a Constitutional lawyer you'd have to go to T14 (and outside of HYS it'd be rough), and that essentially all there is is to teach or represent cases on certain issues. *shrug* I won't be getting into any T14s. If I do, then I'll take another look at this.

Never really looked into it much further because, despite how much I've loved Con law (at least in the few classes I've taken which cover it in some depth), I'm not looking for a career where I'm going to bust my hump for nearly a decade trying to make it in and then have poor prospects of employment, and low wages if I get it.

It's not just poor prospects, constitutional law lawyers aren't really a thing anymore. The closest is working in employment law (that's even what my con law professor did).

Well I would presume that some people who study Con law - the hot shots in Con law classes at HYS - still are able to get jobs and (presumably "often) end up representing particular kinds of cases before courts (the "____ amendment" cases"), but that's pretty niche. So niche that I've referred to it as the "gender/women studies of law school."

Sorry, but you presume wrong. It's not that people lack qualifications. There's nothing magical about HYS that guarantees you a job in whatever field you want. What is it you think con law attorneys would do that is lucrative enough for there to be a even a niche market in "con law?"

[Troianii]

What do you imagine you would do as a constitutional lawyer? What kind of cases would you want to work on and who would be your client-base?

I assume none and none. I didn't look into it much because early on I heard that to make a decent living as a Constitutional lawyer you'd have to go to T14 (and outside of HYS it'd be rough), and that essentially all there is is to teach or represent cases on certain issues. *shrug* I won't be getting into any T14s. If I do, then I'll take another look at this.

Never really looked into it much further because, despite how much I've loved Con law (at least in the few classes I've taken which cover it in some depth), I'm not looking for a career where I'm going to bust my hump for nearly a decade trying to make it in and then have poor prospects of employment, and low wages if I get it.

It's not just poor prospects, constitutional law lawyers aren't really a thing anymore. The closest is working in employment law (that's even what my con law professor did).

Well I would presume that some people who study Con law - the hot shots in Con law classes at HYS - still are able to get jobs and (presumably "often) end up representing particular kinds of cases before courts (the "____ amendment" cases"), but that's pretty niche. So niche that I've referred to it as the "gender/women studies of law school."

Sorry, but you presume wrong. It's not that people lack qualifications. There's nothing magical about HYS that guarantees you a job in whatever field you want. What is it you think con law attorneys would do that is lucrative enough for there to be a even a niche market in "con law?"

Lucrative? ^_- I didn't say that I thought it was going to be lucrative, but my point being that it was something for the best of HYS (and from which the bottom half of HYS would be excluded) was to say that no, I don't think there's any chance of me ever getting in there.

People who are highly skilled can make money in pretty much anything - it becomes "niche" when either its a small enough market that only few people can make money out of it, or its a small enough market that many people just are barely even aware of its existence. I mean heck, there are people who actually make a living off of competitive video game playing, such money that they can laugh at big law junior associates.

But really, I presumed that a lot of people working cases on matters of constitutional law going through the courts would be have studied constitutional law.