"Biglaw or Bust" Schools Forum

[T14-->BigLaw]

If I'm "Biglaw or bust," what is the lowest I should settle for? Is Duke a great option? 70% get jobs at firms with 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships. Is it safe to assume that many people at a school like Duke do not want Biglaw, and practically everyone who does want it and is not socially awkward during interviews can get it?

[TLSModBot]

No one can easily answer that question. It depends on the level of risk you are comfortable with, what market you're targeting, and what money you get from different schools. The obvious answer is aim as high as possible in the T14 with the highest scholarship.

[iamgeorgebush]

I am not sure what you mean by "low." If you mean USNWR, forget that. You're right to look at employment stats (especially employment at firms with 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships).

At any rate, what exactly your minimum threshold should be depends on your risk tolerance. There is risk at any school that you will want but not get BigLaw. It's an incredibly low risk at some schools, but it's there. My school (Columbia) has the highest BigLaw + FedClerk score (I think), but every year, there are a few people who want but do not get BigLaw. Those people tend to be incredibly socially awkward, have terrible grades, and/or bid only tough-to-crack markets, but they do exist.

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

[TLSModBot]

Also OP the assumptions you ask about are wrong. People strike out at OCI even at Harvard. The risk is just lower, not non-existent.

[T14-->BigLaw]

I am not sure what you mean by "low." If you mean USNWR, forget that. You're right to look at employment stats (especially employment at firms with 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships).

At any rate, what exactly your minimum threshold should be depends on your risk tolerance. There is risk at any school that you will want but not get BigLaw. It's an incredibly low risk at some schools, but it's there. My school (Columbia) has the highest BigLaw + FedClerk score (I think), but every year, there are a few people who want but do not get BigLaw. Those people tend to be incredibly socially awkward, have terrible grades, and/or bid only tough-to-crack markets, but they do exist.

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

I'm looking at all of the above-mentioned schools. I will have little (30-40K) to no debt when I graduate, but the only reason I am going to law school is to pursue a career in BigLaw. Based on your anecdotal evidence, it seems that the people who struck out at OCI bid foolishly and/or had poor interpersonal skills. Am I correct?

[T14-->BigLaw]

Also OP the assumptions you ask about are wrong. People strike out at OCI even at Harvard. The risk is just lower, not non-existent.

I understand people strike out, but what I'm trying to find out is WHY. Is it just the socially awkward, eccentric people, or are there attractive and personable law students who strike out as well?

[TLSModBot]

Combination of grades, personality, their bidding strategy, their interview skills, and the ever subjective 'fit' question of particular firms. There really is no definitive answer here.

[umichman]

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

Clear Michigan slap. Michigan places well into NYC also.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Anyway, if I were to do this over again, wanted NYC BigLaw, these would be the schools I'd consider (in no particular order): Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, U. Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, NYU, Penn, and Duke. But again, that's based on my own personal risk tolerance.

Clear Michigan slap. Michigan places well into NYC also.

Not based on recent data

[El Pollito]

does michigan still have terrifying employment stats? maybe don't go there

[alpha kenny body]

does michigan still have terrifying employment stats? maybe don't go there

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2014/
Not too bad, their overall percentage is 90%

[Mack.Hambleton]

does michigan still have terrifying employment stats? maybe don't go there

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/michigan/2014/
Not too bad, their overall percentage is 90%

They have the second lowest BL+FC numbers in the T14 after GULC at 54%

[052220152]

does michigan still have terrifying employment stats? maybe don't go there

yea if your looking for safest t14 school, michigan is towards the bottom. that may be changing, but its not a sure thing.

[chicago-gunner123]

Based on ABA disclosures here is the rough biglaw (100+ attorney) + fed clerkship data for the t-14 (this is helpful maybe for the rest of the t-14 but obviously still go to Y/S if you want biglaw and get in, probably H too depending on CCN scholarship and your financial situation):

1) Columbia - 78.85% (74.15% BL + 4.7% FC)
2) Penn - 78.05% (70.14% BL + 7.91% FC)
3) Chicago - 75.71% (60% BL + 15.71 % FC)
4) Stanford - 74.87% (44.39% bl + 30.48% FC)
5) Cornell - 74.35% (64.4% BL + 9.95% FC)
6) NYU - 71.4% (64.09%bl + 7.31% FC)
7) Harvard - 71.17% (56.66% BL + 14.51% FC)
8 ) Duke - 70.23% (56.74% BL + 13.49% FC)
9) Virginia - 67.63% (52.44% BL + 15.19% FC)
10) Northwestern - 64.95% (55.67% BL + 9.28% FC)
11) Berkeley - 62.37% (48.43% BL + 13.94% FC)
12) Yale - 60.43% (34.78% BL + 25.65% FC)
13) Michigan - 53.85% (43.44% BL +10.51% FC)
14) Georgetown - 48.4% (44.89% BL +3.51% FC)

Note: all this data is taken from the admissions forum thread tracking the ABA disclosures for the class of 2014.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Based on ABA disclosures here is the rough biglaw (100+ attorney) + fed clerkship data for the t-14 (this is helpful maybe for the rest of the t-14 but obviously still go to Y/S if you want biglaw and get in, probably H too depending on CCN scholarship and your financial situation):

1) Columbia - 78.85% (74.15% BL + 4.7% FC)
2) Penn - 78.05% (70.14% BL + 7.91% FC)
3) Chicago - 75.71% (60% BL + 15.71 % FC)
4) Stanford - 74.87% (44.39% bl + 30.48% FC)
5) Cornell - 74.35% (64.4% BL + 9.95% FC)
6) NYU - 71.4% (64.09%bl + 7.31% FC)
7) Harvard - 71.17% (56.66% BL + 14.51% FC)
8 ) Duke - 70.23% (56.74% BL + 13.49% FC)
9) Virginia - 67.63% (52.44% BL + 15.19% FC)
10) Northwestern - 64.95% (55.67% BL + 9.28% FC)
11) Berkeley - 62.37% (48.43% BL + 13.94% FC)
12) Yale - 60.43% (34.78% BL + 25.65% FC)
13) Michigan - 53.85% (43.44% BL +10.51% FC)
14) Georgetown - 48.4% (44.89% BL +3.51% FC)

Note: all this data is taken from the admissions forum thread tracking the ABA disclosures for the class of 2014.

Why separate Stanford and Harvard for big law

[Desert Fox]

[KMart]

Biglaw or bust is a stupid plan. It screams, "I have no idea what I want to do, but I do know I want to make money doing it." That isn't the worst plan, but biglaw is a shitty way of making bank. You spend 3 years losing money hand over fist (tution, spending, lost salary and career progression). You'll probably make is 2-3 years in biglaw. And thats just not worth it.

[T14-->BigLaw]

Biglaw or bust is a stupid plan. It screams, "I have no idea what I want to do, but I do know I want to make money doing it." That isn't the worst plan, but biglaw is a shitty way of making bank. You spend 3 years losing money hand over fist (tution, spending, lost salary and career progression). You'll probably make is 2-3 years in biglaw. And thats just not worth it.

You can go in-house at an investment bank if you're not on the partner track. In-house attorneys at top investment firms can make $250-300K easily after a bonus. What other ways are there to make a lot of money in law?

[Desert Fox]

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

michigan is a fucking TTT. dont go.

[Hikikomorist]

.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

Biglaw or bust is a stupid plan. It screams, "I have no idea what I want to do, but I do know I want to make money doing it." That isn't the worst plan, but biglaw is a shitty way of making bank. You spend 3 years losing money hand over fist (tution, spending, lost salary and career progression). You'll probably make is 2-3 years in biglaw. And thats just not worth it.

If this is a person's attitude, what should they be doing instead?

prostitution?

[AReasonableMan]

Biglaw or bust is a stupid plan. It screams, "I have no idea what I want to do, but I do know I want to make money doing it." That isn't the worst plan, but biglaw is a shitty way of making bank. You spend 3 years losing money hand over fist (tution, spending, lost salary and career progression). You'll probably make is 2-3 years in biglaw. And thats just not worth it.

Yeah but big law plus clerkship is a useful data point because it's the only statistic that's impossible to game.

[crumb cake]

Based on ABA disclosures here is the rough biglaw (100+ attorney) + fed clerkship data for the t-14 (this is helpful maybe for the rest of the t-14 but obviously still go to Y/S if you want biglaw and get in, probably H too depending on CCN scholarship and your financial situation):

1) Columbia - 78.85% (74.15% BL + 4.7% FC)
2) Penn - 78.05% (70.14% BL + 7.91% FC)
3) Chicago - 75.71% (60% BL + 15.71 % FC)
4) Stanford - 74.87% (44.39% bl + 30.48% FC)
5) Cornell - 74.35% (64.4% BL + 9.95% FC)
6) NYU - 71.4% (64.09%bl + 7.31% FC)
7) Harvard - 71.17% (56.66% BL + 14.51% FC)
8 ) Duke - 70.23% (56.74% BL + 13.49% FC)
9) Virginia - 67.63% (52.44% BL + 15.19% FC)
10) Northwestern - 64.95% (55.67% BL + 9.28% FC)
11) Berkeley - 62.37% (48.43% BL + 13.94% FC)
12) Yale - 60.43% (34.78% BL + 25.65% FC)
13) Michigan - 53.85% (43.44% BL +10.51% FC)
14) Georgetown - 48.4% (44.89% BL +3.51% FC)

Note: all this data is taken from the admissions forum thread tracking the ABA disclosures for the class of 2014.

One thing to keep in mind is 100+ attorney firms don't necessarily fit the biglaw mold as it's understood here on TLS. Most people would not consider a 110 attorney single-office firm to be biglaw, for example.

LST provides a breakdown on the size of the firms a school's class went to: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2014/

The percent of a school's class heading to NLJ 250 firms is also useful: http://tippingthescales.com/2015/02/the ... w-schools/

Using this narrower definition of biglaw puts the biglaw number at most schools 5-10% lower than their ABA 100+ figure.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

inb4 michigan bros going "bu... bu... but self-selection! public interest! career office told us to bid the wrong market!"