How hard to be at or above median at a T14? Forum

[Mack.Hambleton]

You have a little less than 50% chance.

Original

[zhenders]

also frankly sleep is stupidly important to learning and retention of information so if you're fucking up your sleep to study more you're probably not helping yourself out very much

I mean being in the top 1% of studiers at my school would probably be crazy. People are mostly not insane and unhealthy about studying, but why would I want to top the people who do 4+ hours a night and 10 hours each weekend day? At some point, shit's not worth it.

Shoes, you're describing my life. This is what UofC does to people: my frame of reference is swiss cheese. I thought I was studying on the light end. ~_~

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

what the fuck could you possibly read for 10 hours? that shit cray

[UnicornHunter]

You have a little less than 50% chance.

It's actually significantly better, depending on school.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

am i not understanding how medians work? whats with this 50% bullshit?

AAA/BBB B BBB/CCC whats the median? and what are your chances of copping median or above? am i done here?

[oil]

am i not understanding how medians work? whats with this 50% bullshit?

AAA/BBB B BBB/CCC whats the median? and what are your chances of copping median or above? am i done here?

For this single class you are proposing the median is a B, but 10/13 grades are median or better.

[stego]

am i not understanding how medians work? whats with this 50% bullshit?

AAA/BBB B BBB/CCC whats the median? and what are your chances of copping median or above? am i done here?

For this single class you are proposing the median is a B, but 10/13 grades are median or better.

Imagine (as a hypothetical) the grades in a particular class came out AAAAAA B BBBBCC. The median grade is still a B. Suppose the grade distribution in every class looks like this. If you get straight B's, you have a median grade in every individual class, but your overall GPA is possibly below median because most people probably have at least one A and more A's than C's.

Also, as an aside, pretty sure I've heard people say on here that at some schools, grades are packed so tightly together that being median looks more like being in the middle third (~ 33rd percentile to 66th percentile) rather than being in the top 50%. If I'm wrong about that someone please correct me.

[Tiago Splitter]

At most T14's the grading is pretty tight and the mushy middle where everyone thinks they are median probably goes down to about the 70th percentile, if not even further. It also helps that most T14's won't tell anyone what the median actually is. You can probably brute force your way to a GPA that is in that arguably median range, but don't count on anything better.

[84651846190]

Raw hours don't mean anything. Some people don't understand what they don't understand and spend hours memorizing rules that are incorrect.

The subject matter in law school is generally easy enough for almost everyone at a T14 to comprehend. The way to distinguish yourself is to sharpen your issue spotting skills and MEMORIZE the rules. The latter DOES take some time, unless you have a photographic memory (in which case, why the fuck are you wasting a photographic memory on a legal career?).

[84651846190]

You have a little less than 50% chance.

(probability masterman)

[jbagelboy]

I would actually say 60-65% chance of appearing to be a median or above student, taking my school's rough grade distributions as an example. You have to be in the bottom 35-40% of at least several classes, and in the top 25-30% of none of them.

Of course, these numbers have nothing to do with how much you study.

[iamgeorgebush]

I mean, let's not pretend like studying doesn't matter at all or that it is a true 50/50 chance whether you'll end up below or above median. These things are not completely random. If you have it in you to study sixty or more hours per week consistently for both semesters (and do so efficiently), your chance of being median or better are probably better than 50%. Does that mean it is guaranteed? No, of course not. As many people on TLS will attest, there are people who study their ass off (and do so efficiently) every year but end up below median. And as yet more will attest, plenty of people start law school intending to study their asses off but burn out. Still, law school is not a game of pure chance.

[jbagelboy]

I mean, let's not pretend like studying doesn't matter at all or that it is a true 50/50 chance whether you'll end up below or above median. These things are not completely random. If you have it in you to study sixty or more hours per week consistently for both semesters (and do so efficiently), your chance of being median or better are probably better than 50%. Does that mean it is guaranteed? No, of course not. As many people on TLS will attest, there are people who study their ass off (and do so efficiently) every year but end up below median. And as yet more will attest, plenty of people start law school intending to study their asses off but burn out. Still, law school is not a game of pure chance.

agreed. but also, one of the advantages of going to a school that only hands out a few grades -- DS/H/P/LP, A/A-/B+/B, HH/H/P, ect., is that regardless of study time, it's easier to appear 'median'

[iamgeorgebush]

I mean, let's not pretend like studying doesn't matter at all or that it is a true 50/50 chance whether you'll end up below or above median. These things are not completely random. If you have it in you to study sixty or more hours per week consistently for both semesters (and do so efficiently), your chance of being median or better are probably better than 50%. Does that mean it is guaranteed? No, of course not. As many people on TLS will attest, there are people who study their ass off (and do so efficiently) every year but end up below median. And as yet more will attest, plenty of people start law school intending to study their asses off but burn out. Still, law school is not a game of pure chance.

agreed. but also, one of the advantages of going to a school that only hands out a few grades -- DS/H/P/LP, A/A-/B+/B, HH/H/P, ect., is that regardless of study time, it's easier to appear 'median'

Yeah, that seems right. It would definitely suck to go to a school that had C's on the curve.

Also, as a corollary to what I said above, if you don't study at all, there is a high chance you will end up BELOW median. I can think of one person who did quite well but claimed to have studied very little. I suspect that person is lying.

[Chrstgtr]

I mean, let's not pretend like studying doesn't matter at all or that it is a true 50/50 chance whether you'll end up below or above median. These things are not completely random. If you have it in you to study sixty or more hours per week consistently for both semesters (and do so efficiently), your chance of being median or better are probably better than 50%. Does that mean it is guaranteed? No, of course not. As many people on TLS will attest, there are people who study their ass off (and do so efficiently) every year but end up below median. And as yet more will attest, plenty of people start law school intending to study their asses off but burn out. Still, law school is not a game of pure chance.

agreed. but also, one of the advantages of going to a school that only hands out a few grades -- DS/H/P/LP, A/A-/B+/B, HH/H/P, ect., is that regardless of study time, it's easier to appear 'median'

Yeah, that seems right. It would definitely suck to go to a school that had C's on the curve.

Also, as a corollary to what I said above, if you don't study at all, there is a high chance you will end up BELOW median. I can think of one person who did quite well but claimed to have studied very little. I suspect that person is lying.

Are there actually any T14s that do have Cs on the curve?

[Ken Kesey]

Raw hours don't mean anything. Some people don't understand what they don't understand and spend hours memorizing rules that are incorrect.

The subject matter in law school is generally easy enough for almost everyone at a T14 to comprehend. The way to distinguish yourself is to sharpen your issue spotting skills and MEMORIZE the rules. The latter DOES take some time, unless you have a photographic memory (in which case, why the fuck are you wasting a photographic memory on a legal career?).

What's a different career someone with a photographic memory should take, then? I'd say that ability is no more predisposed to other careers than law.

[JCougar]

How much can personal connections help to land a BigLaw SA? My father used to be a partner at a V100 and he has several friends who are partners at top firms. Can his contacts help me out, or is it unlikely?

Not much at all. I have 2 very very close family friends who were top partners at a very notable NYC biglaw firm and one was even in charge of recruiting. They were literally the first firm to reject me at OCI.

But TBF, a lot of T14s, especially YHS, have grading systems that make like 60% of their class or more look like median students.

Yup. I know one Biglaw partner that I met networking who had a close relative graduate from law school recently. The dude had to volunteer somewhere for 18 months before he got a job...and he was someone who actually got a SA from OCI.

Biglaw firms have entire hiring committees that make these decisions. If every person on the hiring committee got to place their nepotistic connections, they'd never do any real hiring at all.

I doubt much of that goes on, unless you're already in the firm's GPA/Law school rank range.

[star fox]

I mean, let's not pretend like studying doesn't matter at all or that it is a true 50/50 chance whether you'll end up below or above median. These things are not completely random. If you have it in you to study sixty or more hours per week consistently for both semesters (and do so efficiently), your chance of being median or better are probably better than 50%. Does that mean it is guaranteed? No, of course not. As many people on TLS will attest, there are people who study their ass off (and do so efficiently) every year but end up below median. And as yet more will attest, plenty of people start law school intending to study their asses off but burn out. Still, law school is not a game of pure chance.

agreed. but also, one of the advantages of going to a school that only hands out a few grades -- DS/H/P/LP, A/A-/B+/B, HH/H/P, ect., is that regardless of study time, it's easier to appear 'median'

Pretty much every T14 hides the median pretty well. Even schools like WUSTL.

[lavarman84]

How much can personal connections help to land a BigLaw SA? My father used to be a partner at a V100 and he has several friends who are partners at top firms. Can his contacts help me out, or is it unlikely?

Not much at all. I have 2 very very close family friends who were top partners at a very notable NYC biglaw firm and one was even in charge of recruiting. They were literally the first firm to reject me at OCI.

But TBF, a lot of T14s, especially YHS, have grading systems that make like 60% of their class or more look like median students.

Yup. I know one Biglaw partner that I met networking who had a close relative graduate from law school recently. The dude had to volunteer somewhere for 18 months before he got a job...and he was someone who actually got a SA from OCI.

Biglaw firms have entire hiring committees that make these decisions. If every person on the hiring committee got to place their nepotistic connections, they'd never do any real hiring at all.

I doubt much of that goes on, unless you're already in the firm's GPA/Law school rank range.

It won't get you a job but it gets you in the door (an interview) at least. Then again, if you're at a t14, getting biglaw interviews shouldn't be too difficult.

[First Offense]

Personal connections seem to be enough to get you in the door for an interview, but after that it's up to you. Nepotism doesn't seem that rampant in Biglaw hiring from what I've seen.

[84651846190]

Raw hours don't mean anything. Some people don't understand what they don't understand and spend hours memorizing rules that are incorrect.

The subject matter in law school is generally easy enough for almost everyone at a T14 to comprehend. The way to distinguish yourself is to sharpen your issue spotting skills and MEMORIZE the rules. The latter DOES take some time, unless you have a photographic memory (in which case, why the fuck are you wasting a photographic memory on a legal career?).

What's a different career someone with a photographic memory should take, then? I'd say that ability is no more predisposed to other careers than law.

Medicine? Business? I don't know, but law is objectively horrible if you could do almost anything else for the same or slightly less money. There are a few jobs that don't suck (some PI jobs, being a judge, etc.), but these are impossible to count on going into law school, even with a photographic memory.

It's not a question of which profession would benefit most from your skill set, it's a question of what the best job you could get is with your given skill set--and that is not a legal career (if you have a photographic memory).

[Ken Kesey]

Raw hours don't mean anything. Some people don't understand what they don't understand and spend hours memorizing rules that are incorrect.

The subject matter in law school is generally easy enough for almost everyone at a T14 to comprehend. The way to distinguish yourself is to sharpen your issue spotting skills and MEMORIZE the rules. The latter DOES take some time, unless you have a photographic memory (in which case, why the fuck are you wasting a photographic memory on a legal career?).

What's a different career someone with a photographic memory should take, then? I'd say that ability is no more predisposed to other careers than law.

Medicine? Business? I don't know, but law is objectively horrible if you could do almost anything else for the same or slightly less money. There are a few jobs that don't suck (some PI jobs, being a judge, etc.), but these are impossible to count on going into law school, even with a photographic memory.

It's not a question of which profession would benefit most from your skill set, it's a question of what the best job you could get is with your given skill set--and that is not a legal career (if you have a photographic memory).

Business success has a lot more to do with people skills and networks. Medicine is an option, but there's 4 years at 50k 80 hours a week plus an additional year of school. (I personally find law more interesting than medical biochemistry/physiology.)

[JCougar]

OP: Given the fact that most T14 (and even T25 or so) have a top 60% or so of the class significantly packed together on the LSAT due to median gaming, the logical reasoning skills are pretty much a wash.

As far as effort goes, there will still be a few slackers, but for the most part, you're around the most academically-motivated crowd, so that's generally a wash, too.

Writing ability, in the form of writing a lot of words very fast while sounding somewhat polished is probably the #1 thing that sets you apart--that's what the studies show, at least. It's hard to tell where you stand on this in comparison to the rest of your class, though.

One of the things that the LSAT somewhat fails to measure, though, is the philosophical nature of law. LSAT logic is mostly informal logic, but it's a lot more straightforward than legal logic, where there is no "right answer"--there's sort of good answers, and there's better answers, and there's kind of bad yet still somewhat plausible answers. If you come from a more mathematical/hard science background, where the answer takes much more of a right/wrong form, it can be kind of hard to get used to this kind of thinking. It will be hard to train your mind to make arguments that are less plausible, but still plausible enough to get you points on a law exam.

Nevertheless, the #1 predictor of your grade is generally word count.