Hours Forum

[JDJohnP21]

Is it possible to be a lawyer, and still have a good work/life balance? I know that most NYC Biglaw firms have you working 60-80 hours a week. But are there firms where you work 40-60 hours a week with less pay? What are midlaw and small law hours like?

[thesealocust]

There are gradients of quality of life, but making good money in the law tends to come with an intense and unpredictable workload. Smaller firms outside of major markets still often require long and unpredictable hours, just not as bad or as constant. They also hire many fewer associates.

The unpredictable nature of the work is the important part - hours per week isn't a very useful metric at a law firm. You'll regularly be on call and have little control over how much work you have or when it has to be done, especially at the junior level.

Government jobs can have much better and more predictable work/life balance, and tend to be very stable, but they're also intensely competitive and there aren't many available compared to the number of interested graduates per year (not to mention the fact that many government jobs hire biglaw refuges rather than fresh law school graduates).

[JDJohnP21]

Thesealocust
Does Banking/FIG work involve a lot of unpredictability? I agree with you that hours per week is not the most important thing. However, I have always wondered, why are billable hour requirements so high? I read that in the 50s the target was 1300 billable hours, and lawyers still made decent money. What has changed? Why are the billable hour requirments so crazy today?

[thesealocust]

Massive unpredictability, at least at top firms (which tends to be where that work is).

I wouldn't put much stock in "1300 billable hours" from the 50s. Everything I've read suggests that lawyers at top firms have worked brutally hard for as long as the top firms have existed. Perhaps the advent of telecommunications and air travel have made it more universal and more brutal, but it's always been bad.

[JDJohnP21]

This is frankly unbelievable to me. All the threads I have read on TLS seem to suggest that it impossible to be a lawyer in private practice, and have a good work/life balance. Are there really NO firms where you can work 40-60 hours a week and make decent money?(100k 1st year)

[A. Nony Mouse]

Why do you think there should be?

[JonTheMandamus]

There are more opportunities for that type of lifestyle later in one's legal career than as a first year law school graduate. If you are highly successful at a firm for several years, and you have clients that would follow you, you could start your own practice and maybe earn 6-figures and work 40-60 hours a week. Either way, what you're asking for is few and far in between. It certainly exists.

[JDJohnP21]

None Mouse
As you know most associates in NYC Biglaw work brutal hours, and make 160k. I think there should be alternatives for those who want to work less hours, and are fine with less pay. Not everyone is obsessed with money( my dream is to have a nice house in a nice suburb. I don't need a private jet)

[ManoftheHour]

I think there should be alternatives for those who want to work less hours, and are fine with less pay.

Unfortunately, you'd probably have to look to another career path for that. I've spoken to different attorneys from small to mid to large sized firms. The hours don't seem to vary. Everyone seems to accept that long hours are just part of their job. Even PDs work long hours.

[WheatThins]

None Mouse
As you know most associates in NYC Biglaw work brutal hours, and make 160k. I think there should be alternatives for those who want to work less hours, and are fine with less pay. Not everyone is obsessed with money( my dream is to have a nice house in a nice suburb. I don't need a private jet)

Nony didn't ask why you would want to work easy hours for good pay with no experience. That much is obvious to anyone.

She asked why/how that makes sense from a firm's perspective.

[J90]

None Mouse
As you know most associates in NYC Biglaw work brutal hours, and make 160k. I think there should be alternatives for those who want to work less hours, and are fine with less pay. Not everyone is obsessed with money( my dream is to have a nice house in a nice suburb. I don't need a private jet)

Honestly, Nony is right.

A lot of the point of hiring a law firm is that you can count on them to get things done when need be, and not miss deadlines. Why would you bring any remotely good work to a firm that'll tell you, "It's 6:30 p.m., and our lawyers have families. Sorry, John."

Think about it from the clients' perspectives. If you're doing Trusts & Estates, then yeah, maybe the hours'll be a lot better. But deal work? Never. And if you think trial work at a law firm (not PD/etc.) will ever be 40-50 hours/week, you're wrong. "Our company's livelihood is at stake. Let's go to the 9-6:30 midlaw firm down the block, they'll protect us. I'm sure they give great, interesting work to lawyers who are happy with their families and quality of life."

[SFSpartan]

I think there should be alternatives for those who want to work less hours, and are fine with less pay.

There probably should be, but the alternatives are few and far between. As an associate at any law firm, the partners have a strong incentive to work you hard because they make money based on how many hours you work. Additionally, small and midsize firms charge lower billing rates, and thus need work more hours because they generate less money for each hour worked. While small/midlaw attorneys likely aren't on call 24/7 like their biglaw counterparts, thinking they don't work long hours is foolish.

In short, if you want to work 40-60 hours a week early in your career, find a different profession. After you've worked at a firm for quite a long time, and can open up your own shop, what you want becomes possible. But the number of places where that will happen early in your career is pretty close to 0.

[JDJohnP21]

Would attending HYS make it possible to start a law firm right out of law school?

[thesealocust]

Would attending HYS make it possible to start a law firm right out of law school?

[SFSpartan]

Would attending HYS make it possible to start a law firm right out of law school?

Not really. The problem with hanging a shingle right away is that law school doesn't teach you anything that is practically useful. You are basically going to be a giant malpractice machine for a couple years until you learn enough about your practice area to stop fucking up. A firm is a good delivery system for that experience because they have aggregated much of the knowledge you need, and will provide you with experiences that will allow you to apply that knowledge so that you understand what you are doing. Without firm experience, the likelihood that you'll fuck things up without realizing it is relatively high. Also, you should realize that, wherever you go to school, you have few marketable skills coming out of school, so people will be reluctant to hire you if you start your own firm.

Tl;dr: It's possible to start your own firm no matter where you go. Advisable: no.

Edit: Also, what tsl said

[pancakes3]

Just wasted a full hour going over OP's posts. Hilarious. I can't believe I missed all those gems of threads. Makes this one almost pedestrian in comparison.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think there should be alternatives for those who want to work less hours, and are fine with less pay.

There are. They're just usually in the public sector/non-profit, and it's much less pay. Law salaries tend to be bimodal, so they tend to cluster at either $160K (or your local market equivalent), or $40-50k. There are some jobs with salaries in between, but not many, and if you're working for a firm, it's probably still a lot of hours.

[JDJohnP21]

Thanks guys for your answers. As an alternative to a career in law, I have also considered working at a think tank like the Heritage Foundation or becoming a congressional staffer.. This would save me a lot of money, since I wouldn't have to go to law school. I know the first year pay will be MUCH less, but will the hours be better? Also, I have always wondered, what do congressional staffers do after they are done staffing for their congressman? What does the career path look like?

[DaRascal]

I'm kinda hoping for a decent job $50k/year or so with a solid 30-40 hour workweek. What are some good ones you can get out of law school? Anyone know?

[lawadmin]

I'm kinda hoping for a decent job $50k/year or so with a solid 30-40 hour workweek. What are some good ones you can get out of law school? Anyone know?

Executive Assistant/Special Assistant (more likely 40-45 hours/week though).

[JDJohnP21]

Anyone got an answer for my last question?

[LitttUp]

The firms are going to have to pay medical and retirement benefits either way. Why pay two guys $80k and benefits to both of them when you can pay one $160k and limit the benefits (and laptops and phones and office space and parking space and meal allotments and taxi allotments, etc.)?

Plus, top talent is harder and harder to find. Why find two talented associates (who aren't interested in working very hard) when you could just find one and pay him double.

Also, why have associates if they aren't going to work and bill. Everything they don't do means that someone else has to do it, and everyone up the chain is too expensive. And if they have enough money to pay you a lot, where do you think that comes from? Big clients, big cases, lots of hours. Every firm would rather have you fund their salary than the other way around.

It's just an untenable business model to pay associates a lot without getting a ton of hours billed from them. That's why you won't see it often.

[kaiser]

Would attending HYS make it possible to start a law firm right out of law school?

Is this a serious question? Putting aside the likely lack of knowledge re client development, mechanics of running a firm, how would this fresh-out-of-school grad know the first thing about practicing law? And what about HYS makes you think the grad would be any more capable of starting fresh out of school with his own firm, as compared to a grad of any other school?

[JDJohnP21]

Nobody has an answer for me regarding think tanks?

[ManoftheHour]

Go to top-think-tanks.com?

I'd talk to people actually in think tanks.