Employment scores and available jobs Forum

tier3 · Post by **tier3** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:54 pm

Why do a lot of law schools have low employment scores yet there are many attorney positions available on indeed.com, monster.com and flipdog.com? From my search engine it looks like employers are hiring a lot of attorneys.

r6_philly · Post by **r6_philly** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:40 pm

tier3 wrote:Why do a lot of law schools have low employment scores yet there are many attorney positions available on indeed.com, monster.com and flipdog.com? From my search engine it looks like employers are hiring a lot of attorneys.

Because law graduates are not attorneys that people are looking for until they work somewhere else for 2-3 years.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:19 pm

Also, define "many" jobs and "a lot of" attorney positions. Do you know how many people graduate law school each year looking for jobs, and how many people are already attorneys who will change jobs? Just because you think there are "a lot" of jobs doesn't mean there are enough jobs to go around.

tier3 · Post by **tier3** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:07 pm

A. Nony Mouse,

I have been viewing the "Indeed" website there are over 26,000 positions in law. That is just one website, there are several to a dozen internet websites to look for employment. There are new attorney positions added everyday in cities and other parts all over the US. The jobs range from entry to mid to senior level positions. It's a good start for those that think there are no jobs for attorneys. If this route doesn't work I would say look into headhunters that match your skill set with positions available.

If these two things don't work I would suggest that the applicant take a hard look at their resume, do research on the firm they are applying for prior to the interview, also do research on body language, personal appearance, the interview process and what is acceptable to say and do during the interview and what is not. Many of these things should already be done first prior to the applying for an executive position.

Wingtip88 · Post by **Wingtip88** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:20 pm

Tier3 - have you actually studied recent law graduate unemployment/underemployment? 43% of the entire Class of 2013 failed to secure lawyer jobs. The points you are trying to raise do not counter, refute or offer an alternative explanation for the available data that we have regarding the job market crisis that thousands of these students find themselves in upon graduating law school.

The job postings you are referencing are almost certainly well out of reach for the vast majority of unemployed/underemployed recent law grads.

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2014-law ... -rankings/

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:27 pm

tier3, you are woefully misinformed about the state of the legal job market and how to evaluate the positions available, and to think that people on this site who struggle to get jobs just don't know how to go about getting a job (looking at their resume, researching firms, etc.) is insulting.

First, I'm not at all convinced that indeed/monster/etc. are especially useful sites for finding law jobs. But presuming that's where you should look, I ran a couple of searches.

Re: indeed.com, "positions in law" is not the same as positions as lawyers (requiring a JD). When I plug "lawyer" and "full-time" into indeed.com, and exclude staffing agencies, I get 2,192 jobs. However, those results include the following positions:

Corporate Counsel (22)
Legal Secretary (15)
Associate Sales Manager (14)
Legal Assistant (11)
Paralegal (11)
Staff Attorney (11)
Senior Counsel (11)
Counsel (10)
Executive Director (10)
Axiom Attorney (8)
Investment Management Associate Attorney (8)
Account Executive (7)
Contract Attorney (7)
Attorney Evaluation Manager (7)
Corporate Attorney (7)

Some of those are attorney positions, but clearly the search engine returns jobs that do not require a JD (and therefore do not require you to go to law school to get).

When I plug in "attorney" and "full-time" (excluding staffing agencies), I get 13,979 jobs. HOWEVER, those results include positions with the following job titles:

Attorney (136)
Legal Secretary (112)
Associate Attorney (99)
Field Nurse Case Manager (RN) (88)
Legal Assistant (83)
Corporate Counsel (83)
Staff Attorney (69)
Remote Licensed Mortgage Loan Officer (68)
Licensed Mortgage Loan Originator (62)
Disability Attorney/Advocate (56)
Assistant General Counsel (54)
Licensed Mortgage Loan Officer (53)
United States Marshals Service Court Security Officer (52)
Mortgage Loan Officer (licensed required) (52)
Mortgage Senior Loan Officer (52)

So, again, those results are NOT limited to actual lawyer jobs.

monster.com gives 180 jobs for full-time attorney (though their search is a bit weird and you may have to get a little more fine-grained with job titles). flipdog is "powered by monster," so just another way to access the listings at monster, not offering additional listings. And I'm pretty sure that indeed.com is going to overlap with monster (because there's no reason employers would post only on one and not the other).

In short, the numbers of positions available is not accurately measured by the results on an internet job site.

Now, consider that there are something like 40,000+ new attorneys who graduate every year. Does that really seem like a lot of available jobs for lawyers?

sublime · Post by **sublime** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:27 pm

sideroxylon · Post by **sideroxylon** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:45 pm

Nony, is responding to obvious flame a hobby of yours? A resume line or something?

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:52 pm

Just a personal character flaw.

tier3 · Post by **tier3** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:39 pm

Kimikho · Post by **Kimikho** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:47 pm

Has anyone ever actually gotten a job from indeed.com? I only ever used it for internships but was never successful.

rinkrat19 · Post by **rinkrat19** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:58 pm

Not sure what Tier3 was trying to prove there with his list of websites, but I'm pretty sure he failed.

JCougar · Post by **JCougar** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:20 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:tier3, you are woefully misinformed about the state of the legal job market and how to evaluate the positions available, and to think that people on this site who struggle to get jobs just don't know how to go about getting a job (looking at their resume, researching firms, etc.) is insulting.

First, I'm not at all convinced that indeed/monster/etc. are especially useful sites for finding law jobs. But presuming that's where you should look, I ran a couple of searches.

Re: indeed.com, "positions in law" is not the same as positions as lawyers (requiring a JD). When I plug "lawyer" and "full-time" into indeed.com, and exclude staffing agencies, I get 2,192 jobs. However, those results include the following positions:

Corporate Counsel (22)
Legal Secretary (15)
Associate Sales Manager (14)
Legal Assistant (11)
Paralegal (11)
Staff Attorney (11)
Senior Counsel (11)
Counsel (10)
Executive Director (10)
Axiom Attorney (8)
Investment Management Associate Attorney (8)
Account Executive (7)
Contract Attorney (7)
Attorney Evaluation Manager (7)
Corporate Attorney (7)

Some of those are attorney positions, but clearly the search engine returns jobs that do not require a JD (and therefore do not require you to go to law school to get).

When I plug in "attorney" and "full-time" (excluding staffing agencies), I get 13,979 jobs. HOWEVER, those results include positions with the following job titles:

Attorney (136)
Legal Secretary (112)
Associate Attorney (99)
Field Nurse Case Manager (RN) (88)
Legal Assistant (83)
Corporate Counsel (83)
Staff Attorney (69)
Remote Licensed Mortgage Loan Officer (68)
Licensed Mortgage Loan Originator (62)
Disability Attorney/Advocate (56)
Assistant General Counsel (54)
Licensed Mortgage Loan Officer (53)
United States Marshals Service Court Security Officer (52)
Mortgage Loan Officer (licensed required) (52)
Mortgage Senior Loan Officer (52)

So, again, those results are NOT limited to actual lawyer jobs.

monster.com gives 180 jobs for full-time attorney (though their search is a bit weird and you may have to get a little more fine-grained with job titles). flipdog is "powered by monster," so just another way to access the listings at monster, not offering additional listings. And I'm pretty sure that indeed.com is going to overlap with monster (because there's no reason employers would post only on one and not the other).

In short, the numbers of positions available is not accurately measured by the results on an internet job site.

Now, consider that there are something like 40,000+ new attorneys who graduate every year. Does that really seem like a lot of available jobs for lawyers?

And I would bet that less than 10% of those that are actually attorney jobs are entry-level jobs. It might be significantly less than that.

Then number of entry-level attorney jobs on Indeed.com in the state where I took the bar has been in the single digits cumulatively over the last 12 months. And all but one or two were categorically shitlaw. You can't get an entry-level law job from Indeed.

Anyhow, this has been a excellent troll...not sure why I bit.

tier3 · Post by **tier3** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:36 pm

"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup."

Wikipedia.com

patogordo · Post by **patogordo** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:38 pm

Kimikho · Post by **Kimikho** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:39 pm

ugh

we lose rat and got tier3

sideroxylon · Post by **sideroxylon** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:42 pm

scoobers wrote:ugh

we lose rat and got tier3

what if rat is tier3??

Wingtip88 · Post by **Wingtip88** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:50 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Not sure what Tier3 was trying to prove there with his list of websites, but I'm pretty sure he failed.

spleenworship · Post by **spleenworship** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:19 pm

Tagging for teh lulz

sopranorleone · Post by **sopranorleone** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:33 pm

tier3 wrote:A. Nony Mouse,

I have been viewing the "Indeed" website there are over 26,000 positions in law. That is just one website, there are several to a dozen internet websites to look for employment. There are new attorney positions added everyday in cities and other parts all over the US. The jobs range from entry to mid to senior level positions. It's a good start for those that think there are no jobs for attorneys. If this route doesn't work I would say look into headhunters that match your skill set with positions available.

If these two things don't work I would suggest that the applicant take a hard look at their resume, do research on the firm they are applying for prior to the interview, also do research on body language, personal appearance, the interview process and what is acceptable to say and do during the interview and what is not. Many of these things should already be done first prior to the applying for an executive position.

Then go to TJSL and get a job--any kind of job--working as an attorney to prove us all wrong. That'll take about 3 years. In the meantime, fuck yourself.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:06 pm

sideroxylon wrote:
scoobers wrote:ugh

we lose rat and got tier3
what if rat is tier3??

It would take someone of brilliance to ascend these heights of stupidity deliberately.

Tier 3, please go away. Everything you post is cancer and madness.

tier3 · Post by **tier3** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:41 am

Spanishmain,

I work for a Fortune 50 company. I hire executives for my company (ie) a headhunter. This is why I say that jobs are out there. The first thing I look at is a person's resume. I skim it quickly less than 15 seconds. If it has one error it goes into the trash. I go through easily 100 applications a day. If it doesn't have a title page it goes in the trash. If they can't pay attention to detail and follow simple rules why would I hire them? There's a lot of other things that I look for as well but I'm not going to go into detail. The point that I'm making is that there are jobs out there, there are people hiring and what you hand to a prospective employer is very important. The smallest detail is what separates someone from being hired to someone that doesn't.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:05 am

tier3 wrote:Spanishmain,

I work for a Fortune 50 company. I hire executives for my company (ie) a headhunter. This is why I say that jobs are out there. The first thing I look at is a person's resume. I skim it quickly less than 15 seconds. If it has one error it goes into the trash. I go through easily 100 applications a day. If it doesn't have a title page it goes in the trash. If they can't pay attention to detail and follow simple rules why would I hire them? There's a lot of other things that I look for as well but I'm not going to go into detail. The point that I'm making is that there are jobs out there, there are people hiring and what you hand to a prospective employer is very important. The smallest detail is what separates someone from being hired to someone that doesn't.

Got it. You're just a Fortune 500 headhunter who isn't sure he can afford an apartment and will have to live in a dorm

tier3 wrote:I'm not sure if I can afford to live off campus.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p8095863

when he leaves his sweet corporate gig to go to a crappy law school because he's not good at multiple choice tests

tier3 wrote:I'm not a multiple question test taker. I will probably score the lowest possible score on the LSAT. My strengths are in writing term papers, speaking and essay tests.

but oh wait you're PTing in the 170s

tier3 wrote:pancakes,

I'm scoring 173 -176 there are a few that I'm missing but I think it's because I'm tiring toward the end. How does one build up endurance for this test?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=237566

but despite being a bigwig at a fancy corporation who is a stickler for details you still struggle with dressing yourself and wearing a suit

tier3 wrote:Is dressing casual in cargo shorts, a shirt and sneakers appropriate or allowed in law school classes?

Also is a suit mandatory for most orientations? Are most people wearing 350 dollar suits and up, or can I get a regular blue suit with light blue pin stripes at JC Penny and that would be acceptable? What color suit is appropriate and are black leather shoes and what color tie is appropriate?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p8094933

It all makes sense now!

cinephile · Post by **cinephile** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:19 am

spleenworship wrote:Tagging for teh lulz

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:41 am

I think if tier3 were a headhunter he'd understand better the nature of/how to use online job sites. But even if he were a Fortune 50 headhunter (lol) that doesn't mean he knows anything about the market for new law grads and how to get a good job out of law school.

Here's a tip, tier3: everyone here already knows that you can't submit a resume with any errors and that doing so can get you dinged. Everyone already knows that attention to detail is important. You're not making any useful points about the state of the legal job market by spouting generic job search platitudes about what applicants need to do.

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