best 1L summer positions Forum

[blahblah2172]

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[toothbrush]

what 1L summer positions most help you with those goals?
any, really. maybe a 1L internship in a good fed court like sdny or something. generally, people say 1L SA > other paid jobs > interning with SNDY > other things. there may be some exceptions like DOJ or something

specifically, how does one acquire a 1L SA? do all top firms offer 1L SAs?
most do. usually diversity-focused. go to each firm website and see what their policy is. also look at nalpdirectory.org and look at the 1L hires to see how many 1L SA's they have. you need to apply very early and have decent grades, though i know some people who applied on dec 1(day apps open) and i dont think they had grades until very late in the interviews

to what extent does the strength of your relationships with professors from the first semester determine your 1L summer options?
very little, imo. unless you want a research position with a professor who has ties with a feeder judge or something (not that you said you want scotus..)

how do you distinguish yourself for a 1L summer position if you don't have 1L first semester grades or significant, prior w/e?
consider your diversity and how to frame that in the eyes of the firm.

what school funded PI positions are roughly equivalent with a 1L SA in terms of prestige and career benefits?
none. maybe DOJ something but none is the safer response. remember judges often not funded by schools.

is there anything one should be doing during 0L summer to prepare for the 1L summer internship search?
have your resume done up to going to law school so that in oct/nov when you are looking to apply places you dont have to do too much work on that. MAYBE look at some cover letters to see what you would write for them. IE for a judge you may write about some of your writing experience. nothing really, tho.

tried to answer each question

[jbagelboy]

Not all top firms offer 1L SA's. The school career services will share some 1L firm opportunities with you online, primarily diversity positions. Honestly most 1L SA's will be diversity related or IP-focused. You can expand beyond the career services opps by reaching out to firms directly - NALP is a good place to start around January. I got a vault 1L SA by targeting my home market over winter break and in the month after, although most firms will just tell you they don't take 1Ls and that you should get in touch again before OCI.

You can get work at a firm as a 1L but its rare and even less likely without some valuable work experience (which makes you more palatable after only one year of law school). You should not act on the misleading premise you will receive one without one of the particular valuable qualities - Texas, IP, AA, powerful connections, incredibly high fall grades + white collar WE, ect. Fortunately, it doesn't really matter what you do as a 1L summer for your goals (clerkship -> top notch lit). I've heard great things about interning for a judge, US Attorney's Office, and gov't honors internships in DC.

[foundingfather]

tag; relevant to my interests.

also, jbagel you are one of the most helpful posters on this site imo. thank you

[splitmuch]

obviously "best" depends upon context. please indulge the following hypothetical: lets say you're going into your 1L year at one of hys with little work experience and a federal clerkship(s?) --> big law litigation as your ideal career starting path.

what 1L summer positions most help you with those goals?

specifically, how does one acquire a 1L SA? do all top firms offer 1L SAs? to what extent does the strength of your relationships with professors from the first semester determine your 1L summer options? how do you distinguish yourself for a 1L summer position if you don't have 1L first semester grades or significant, prior w/e? what school funded PI positions are roughly equivalent with a 1L SA in terms of prestige and career benefits? is there anything one should be doing during 0L summer to prepare for the 1L summer internship search?

i very much appreciate any answers that people may have.

By far the easiest way to for a non-diverse candidate to get a 1L SA is in a secondary market with ties.

[toothbrush]

it's also worth noting that this advice only works at hysccn. lower t14 it gets more and more rare to land a 1L sa without 1) diversity or 2) great grades.

[splitmuch]

it's also worth noting that this advice only works at hysccn. lower t14 it gets more and more rare to land a 1L sa without 1) diversity or 2) great grades.

Above average (but not great) grades at lower T14 can be more than enough at least in the secondary markets with which I'm familiar.

I also know a few people who "connected" their way into major market 1L SA's without diversity or great grades in non-NY major markets, but admit that is rare.

[BVest]

1L SA > Getting paid decently > Not getting paid, but getting school credit > Getting paid $10/hr. > Getting nothing but a line on the resume

[DUBcity]

1L SA > Getting paid decently > Not getting paid, but getting school credit > Getting paid $10/hr. > Getting nothing but a line on the resume

doesn't that just mean you pay (for school units) to work (for nothing)? I'll take 10/hr or even a non-paid & non-credit internship over that any day

[BigZuck]

Not all top firms offer 1L SA's. The school career services will share some 1L firm opportunities with you online, primarily diversity positions. Honestly most 1L SA's will be diversity related or IP-focused. You can expand beyond the career services opps by reaching out to firms directly - NALP is a good place to start around January. I got a vault 1L SA by targeting my home market over winter break and in the month after, although most firms will just tell you they don't take 1Ls and that you should get in touch again before OCI.

You can get work at a firm as a 1L but its rare and even less likely without some valuable work experience (which makes you more palatable after only one year of law school). You should not act on the misleading premise you will receive one without one of the particular valuable qualities - Texas, IP, AA, powerful connections, incredibly high fall grades + white collar WE, ect. Fortunately, it doesn't really matter what you do as a 1L summer for your goals (clerkship -> top notch lit). I've heard great things about interning for a judge, US Attorney's Office, and gov't honors internships in DC.

You're not giving near enough credit for the "hot chick bump."

At least at UT, Texas didn't seem to be sufficient. You had to have Texas+one of those other qualities.

At a T14 maybe you just need Texas, I dunno.

[Yukos]

First, breaking down 1L summer jobs into tiers is silly. It doesn't matter except 1L SAs, because they pay well and will probably lead to an offer for 2L summer. Plus, 1L summer is a great chance to try out something you think you might like, whether it's DA/PD, government work, in-house, whatever.

Second, many people avoid judicial internships because their school doesn't provide summer PI-funding for judicial internships for some reason. So while they're by all accounts great experience, they aren't necessarily that sought after.

[jbagelboy]

First, breaking down 1L summer jobs into tiers is silly. It doesn't matter except 1L SAs, because they pay well and will probably lead to an offer for 2L summer. Plus, 1L summer is a great chance to try out something you think you might like, whether it's DA/PD, government work, in-house, whatever.

Second, many people avoid judicial internships because their school doesn't provide summer PI-funding for judicial internships for some reason. So while they're by all accounts great experience, they aren't necessarily that sought after.

This is all true.

I will mention one drawback of the 1L SA that I did not anticipate. Just FYI I don't mean for this to come off as entitled or condescending or anything, it just would have been nice to understand in advance:

Since 1)you're not given vacation days other than july 4 (maybe one at most for a 1L), 2) you're being paid a lot for facetime and 3) you actually care about the impression you make and the qualify of your work product, it's basically impossible to network or take meetings and interviews during the day at other firms. If your 1L SA runs up until OCI as most will, you sacrifice some pre-OCI callback or massmail opportunity and have a lot less flexibility - as in probably zero - to fly to job fairs, solicit additional offers in secondary markets, ect. You will be far more dependent on OCI interviewing and the 1L firm itself than those who can pound the pavement and skip work on the reg. Also, you actually have to kinda do real work and (I've heard esp in NY...) pull long-ish hours, but you shouldn't mind this given the experience and pay (whereas other 1L summer positions have often been characterized as relatively laid back)

Now, whether forgoing this extra time makes any tangible difference wrt 2L summer prospects, I don't know - I somewhat doubt it. A few extra CB's probably isn't worth tens of thousands of dollars in most cases. Just smthing to consider.

[Chrstgtr]

3) you actually care about the impression you make and the qualify of your work product

Also, you actually have to kinda do real work and (I've heard esp in NY...) pull long-ish hours,

Do you mean that a 1L SAs are viewed or treated differently by firms. By most accounts people tend to say that being a 2L SA is more about not messing up by doing something stupid that will get you no offered than it is to get noticed or impress the firm. Also most 2L SAs say the hours aren't bad at all. In other words do 1L SAs have to prove themselves more to get a 2L SA invitation from the firm than a 2L has to actually get offered a FT position?

Or are your statements just in comparison to the very laid back and no pressure 1L jobs most people get?

[jbagelboy]

3) you actually care about the impression you make and the qualify of your work product

Also, you actually have to kinda do real work and (I've heard esp in NY...) pull long-ish hours,

Do you mean that a 1L SAs are viewed or treated differently by firms. By most accounts people tend to say that being a 2L SA is more about not messing up by doing something stupid that will get you no offered than it is to get noticed or impress the firm. Also most 2L SAs say the hours aren't bad at all. In other words do 1L SAs have to prove themselves more to get a 2L SA invitation from the firm than a 2L has to actually get offered a FT position?

Or are your statements just in comparison to the very laid back and no pressure 1L jobs most people get?

Nah. Your hours aren't "bad" at all but they will inevitably be more than 9-5 (what you get at most gov gigs). I'm not suggesting there's a difference b/t the years, I'm saying that while the summer associate is a total breeze compared to work as an actual associate, you are expected to be there and complete assignments on deadline, and if you care about getting invited back you can't take the same liberties as one might with an unpaid gig.

[2014]

The 1L SA --> 2L SA at same firm conversion rate is usually below 100%. Sometimes it's because firms have a stated policy (which may or may not be true) of not bringing back 1L SAs because they've seen enough, sometimes it's because they hired you based on fall grades and your spring grades make you no longer competitive for a 2L/full time slot, other times it's because their 1L program has a significant diversity component that the 2L does not, and other times still it's because 1L hiring is more robust in secondary markets than big markets, and those markets don't feel as much pressure to offer everyone.

That's a long winded way of saying yes it is often harder to turn a 1L offer into a 2L one than it is to turn a 2L into a full time one. That combined with the stigma of a no-offer probably makes 1L SAs work a little harder with marginally more anxiety. You will see some on TLS go so far as to say if the money is not a huge factor to you, it can be better to take a different job as a 1L to truly maximize your 2L chances. If I would have had the opportunity to do a 1L SA I would have absolutely taken it. The upsides outweigh the downsides significantly imo.

[checkers]

...Honestly most 1L SA's will be diversity related or IP-focused...

...You should not act on the misleading premise you will receive one without one of the particular valuable qualities - Texas, IP, AA, powerful connections...

You're not giving near enough credit for the "hot chick bump."

At least at UT, Texas didn't seem to be sufficient. You had to have Texas+one of those other qualities.

At a T14 maybe you just need Texas, I dunno.

Sorry if I'm being thick here. Could you (either/both) elaborate on the Texas factor? I've never heard that Texas firms are known for hiring more 1L SA's. If that's true, is there an accepted reason as to why?

Similar follow-up to jbagel: What's the reason that IP credentials give a boost for the first summer? Is it because the candidates might be more equipped to 'hit the ground running' and make a contribution due to their tech training? Does the field have so much work that dipping into 1Ls is necessary? Or is the competition for IP grads so stiff that firms will take a hit on paying for a 1L in order to boost their chances of nabbing them for full-time positions later?

[BigZuck]

...Honestly most 1L SA's will be diversity related or IP-focused...

...You should not act on the misleading premise you will receive one without one of the particular valuable qualities - Texas, IP, AA, powerful connections...

You're not giving near enough credit for the "hot chick bump."

At least at UT, Texas didn't seem to be sufficient. You had to have Texas+one of those other qualities.

At a T14 maybe you just need Texas, I dunno.

Sorry if I'm being thick here. Could you (either/both) elaborate on the Texas factor? I've never heard that Texas firms are known for hiring more 1L SA's. If that's true, is there an accepted reason as to why?

Similar follow-up to jbagel: What's the reason that IP credentials give a boost for the first summer? Is it because the candidates might be more equipped to 'hit the ground running' and make a contribution due to their tech training? Does the field have so much work that dipping into 1Ls is necessary? Or is the competition for IP grads so stiff that firms will take a hit on paying for a 1L in order to boost their chances of nabbing them for full-time positions later?

It's weird cuz it's Texas? I dunno. But they do way more 1L SAs and basically everyone splits their 2L summers.

IP kids are hard to find so might as well try to lock em up early.

[jbagelboy]

...Honestly most 1L SA's will be diversity related or IP-focused...

...You should not act on the misleading premise you will receive one without one of the particular valuable qualities - Texas, IP, AA, powerful connections...

You're not giving near enough credit for the "hot chick bump."

At least at UT, Texas didn't seem to be sufficient. You had to have Texas+one of those other qualities.

At a T14 maybe you just need Texas, I dunno.

Sorry if I'm being thick here. Could you (either/both) elaborate on the Texas factor? I've never heard that Texas firms are known for hiring more 1L SA's. If that's true, is there an accepted reason as to why?

Similar follow-up to jbagel: What's the reason that IP credentials give a boost for the first summer? Is it because the candidates might be more equipped to 'hit the ground running' and make a contribution due to their tech training? Does the field have so much work that dipping into 1Ls is necessary? Or is the competition for IP grads so stiff that firms will take a hit on paying for a 1L in order to boost their chances of nabbing them for full-time positions later?

It's weird cuz it's Texas? I dunno. But they do way more 1L SAs and basically everyone splits their 2L summers.

IP kids are hard to find so might as well try to lock em up early.

This; also a lot of firms with strong IP practice groups have special 1L SA positions for those who can sit for the patent bar. They do this for several reasons; yes, you can usually put them to work on patent lit ASAP - building non-infringement or invalidity claim charts doesn't take three years of law school, and it often isn't worth billing $500/hr for so getting summers to do it is nice. The field probably does have more work right now than some other areas.

Having EE/CS or a PhD in another STEM field also just makes you a more attractive candidate overall.

[checkers]

Thanks for both responses; that all makes sense. I know odds aren't great, regardless of one's credentials, but as a Texan patent agent, this is still good news to hear =]

[BigZuck]

Thanks for both responses; that all makes sense. I know odds aren't great, regardless of one's credentials, but as a Texan patent agent, this is still good news to hear =]

Might as well start countin' stacks now my bro. Congrats, you just won law school.