Starting School in Fall, Getting Cold Feet Forum

[BNL]

Hello current students and recent graduates,

I am getting seriously cold feet about going to law school. Help me out here. Here are the pertinent facts:

• Current employment: really cool engineering field, 90k/yr + benefits, 40 hrs/week, in Chicago
• Planning to go into patent law
• Law school: University of Chicago
• Expected debt: <50k at ~3% interest

Am I crazy for leaving a perfectly good job to go grind for 35 years in law? Am I crazy for thinking about turning down a University of Chicago education with such little debt? Thanks in advance.

[moonman157]

Why do you want to become a lawyer?

[Power_of_Facing]

Hello current students and recent graduates,

I am getting seriously cold feet about going to law school. Help me out here. Here are the pertinent facts:

• Current employment: really cool engineering field, 90k/yr + benefits, 40 hrs/week, in Chicago
• Planning to go into patent law
• Law school: University of Chicago
• Expected debt: <50k at ~3% interest

Am I crazy for leaving a perfectly good job to go grind for 35 years in law? Am I crazy for thinking about turning down a University of Chicago education with such little debt? Thanks in advance.

I think you should stick with the current gig unless you are 100% certain you want to be an attorney.

90k plus benefits + 40 hours a week? Are you kidding me?

"Creating a life that reflects your values and satisfies your soul is a rare achievement. In a culture that relentlessly promotes avarice and excess as the good life, a person happy doing his own work is usually considered an eccentric, if not a subversive. Ambition is only understood if it's to rise to the top of some imaginary ladder of success. Someone who takes an undemanding job because it affords him the time to pursue other interests and activities is considered a flake. A person who abandons a career in order to stay home and raise children is considered not to be living up to his potential-as if a job title and salary are the sole measure of human worth.

You'll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you're doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you'll hear about them.

To invent your own life's meaning is not easy, but it's still allowed, and I think you'll be happier for the trouble."

-Bill Watterson

[BNL]

Why do you want to become a lawyer?

I had a few reasons that I thought were good, but when I say them out loud all I hear is bullshit. Money, I guess.

[JVK]

Why do you want to become a lawyer?

I had a few reasons that I thought were good, but when I say them out loud all I hear is bullshit. Money, I guess.

It can pay, and your debt situation's enviable. But there are tons of incredibly talented lawyers who'd throw it all away for the 40 hr/wk $90,000 + benefits job.

Is there opportunity for advancement at your current job?

[FinalFour]

Do you want to be a lawyer? If yes, go. If not, stay.

[exitoptions]

Why do you want to become a lawyer?

I had a few reasons that I thought were good, but when I say them out loud all I hear is bullshit. Money, I guess.

Can't you work on starting your own firm, or working your way up in a firm, to make more money?

[toothbrush]

Will you look back on saying "no" 5-10 years from now and regret the missed opportunity? Is your position very rare such that you couldn't go back to it if you hate law school (1st year) or being a lawyer (in 3-4 years)?

I'd say you should go just because like others have mentioned that uChi at 50k is amazing. However, it's also true that a 9-5 90k job is what people run away from the big paying big law for.

[071816]

You'll probably get a good job out of Chicago that pays well, but you'll have no time to enjoy your extra money and your quality of life will probably be shit compared to your current job. Unless you are really interested in patent law and think you would really enjoy it, I personally wouldn't go. But I guess you could always try and go back to your former career if you end up hating law.

[Cogburn87]

lol. the number of attorneys i know who would slit their own mother's throat for a 90k 9-5 gig.

no. you should not go.

[northwood]

if in doubt sick it out where you are-
law schools wont be running very far

a lot of graduates would absolutely love to have a 40 hour 90K job. plus in a field you like, is an outcome that is even better than to be expected/

if you think your reasons may be bullshit- and that you may possibly regret this decision- then you already know the answer ( don't go to law school)

[toothbrush]

Also, you can probably defer for a year or two with good reason (say you're building experience).

I *think* you can withdraw from a deferral if you don't intend to enroll in another school. Someone will please correct me if I'm wrong there, though.

[jbagelboy]

a lot of engineers go to law school because they either plateau or find their field and the opportunities allowed them frustrating. engineering can become an intellectually and creatively stifling industry (depending on your management, ect), and the transition to patent attorney presents an attractive alternative to some.

that's a great debt level, top school, so it's about as good as you can get. If you were to attend law school, this would be a killer option. If you are questioning whether you want to practice altogether, that's a different deal.

as for raw $$, you will make more money as a patent attorney than a junior engineer w/o equity or an MA in EE, but you will work a lot more hours.

[BNL]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. The poll is showing 50/50, so I would like to add that this whole philosophical crisis began when it occurred to me how sad life would be without getting to do math and science every day, and how much I love free time. Symbolically, the question is,

Life - (math + science + free time) + $$ + stress = or

Please solve.

[Nomo]

You're from a somewhat unusual financial perspective because you're actually making good money now. You wouldn't just be giving up 50k in debt, you also give up 3 years of putting equity into a house, of payments into a 401k, of interest, etc.

More important is that you described your field as "cool." That tells me you probably get some enjoyment out of it, feel like you're contributing to society in some way, etc. Do you think you'll have the same feelings about patent law? I would be very hesitant to throw away a career I enjoy that comes with good money and hours for a shot at a career with somewhat better money, worse hours, and an unknown level of job satisfaction.

[FSK]

If you want more $$$ get your corp to pay for you to get an MBA and try to move up into management or something.

[northwood]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. The poll is showing 50/50, so I would like to add that this whole philosophical crisis began when it occurred to me how sad life would be without getting to do math and science every day, and how much I love free time. Symbolically, the question is,

Life - (math + science + free time) + $$ + stress = or

Please solve.

the answer to the riddle is hidden in the words above the formula. you are trying to convince yourself to go to law school, when you don't wnt to leave your job and you like what you do.


to put it another way. You like math. there is little math in law. you miss math if you cant do math and you think life is sad without math. therefore the only answer is DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. I REPEAT. YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL. LISTEN TO YOURSELF

[Paul Campos]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. The poll is showing 50/50, so I would like to add that this whole philosophical crisis began when it occurred to me how sad life would be without getting to do math and science every day, and how much I love free time. Symbolically, the question is,

Life - (math + science + free time) + $$ + stress = or

Please solve.

This is like asking if you should break up with somebody with whom you're in a great relationship in order to marry a crazy person who will make every day of your life a living hell, but who may have a big trust fund (latter possibility must remain uncertain ex ante).

[eav1277]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. The poll is showing 50/50, so I would like to add that this whole philosophical crisis began when it occurred to me how sad life would be without getting to do math and science every day, and how much I love free time. Symbolically, the question is,

Life - (math + science + free time) + $$ + stress = or

Please solve.

This is like asking if you should break up with somebody with whom you're in a great relationship in order to marry a crazy person who will make every day of your life a living hell, but who may have a big trust fund (latter possibility must remain uncertain ex ante).

I like that analogy. If you like your job and are having doubts, stay.

[jingosaur]

OP, I'm in a similar situation (I'm a management consultant) and I've gotten very minor cold feet over the last few days just because of the debt (I'm going into a lot more debt but at a higher ranked school) and people at my company telling me that I'm very good at my job and could probably make a good career out of what I'm doing now. It's tough to turn away from a job that pays good money in exchange for a career path that will sap 3 years of earnings that you may not even like. Some of the reasons why I'm very confident with quitting and going to law school are:

1. I have very little job security and very little upward mobility. I received no bonus and no raise this year and the head of my group (who's a partner) tried to get me fired twice in the last year. I've also done a lot of bitchwork (think doc review, software testing, office assistant) even though I have a "prestigious" job and this is likely to not stop and hinder my development. I had a manager tell me once that he couldn't staff me on any of his projects because I had no skills that he can sell.
2. The exit options that I have (other than an MBA which is not nearly as valuable as people on TLS think it is) are jobs at bottom-tier consulting firms at entry-level pay or jobs at startups that will pay me in mostly equity. Almost everyone that I work with is applying for new jobs or studying for the GMAT.
3. I want to be a lawyer and have developed skills that will be valuable in transactional law. Like you, I have a love of math and science, but I don't have a STEM degree (I majored in Finance) so I can't secure jobs that allow me to utilize those skills unless I get a STEM graduate degree. Over the past 3 years of doing primarily writing and other work that involves no math and science skill, I have become more accepting of not having a job that involves math or science.

I think your situation differs in that you really like what you're doing now, where I could never do consulting again and be perfectly happy. But if you go to law school and do patent law, there's a good chance that you will like that too since it has similarities to what you would like to do. If you did an NPV valuation for both possible routes, law school would almost definitely win out over the long term as long as you don't completely burn out in law. It's definitely a tough decision, but it looks like you're in a position where you would be okay with taking either path.

[84651846190]

Someone as smart as you in a useful field should not be thinking about going into law. The legal industry is a refuge for uncreative box-checker types. Why not get more experience in engineering and then go into consulting or start your own business? Do you have a PhD? You could potentially work as an expert witness for law firms, which is by far way cooler (and potentially more lucrative) than working as a lawyer. I know some very average expert consultants who bill out at $650/hr with very minimal overhead. That's over a million per year working from home.

Practicing law, especially as a junior patent litigation associate, is like reading the phone book all day--except you have to concentrate really hard and make sure you read every word of the phone book or you might get fired. It can be a really horrible combination of insanely boring with insanely stressful.

Also, the big money in law often reaches a dead end around year 10 or so for a lot of lawyers. I know ex-lawyers who left biglaw after longish stints and now make less than they did (in real dollars) before law school in non-law jobs. Granted, most of them did this by choice.

[Jchance]

If you still question your decision, its best to sit out/defer. Your stats will be there unless your LSAT is approaching expiration date. Dont go until you are ready, law school will consume you.

[84651846190]

One more thing: the great thing about engineering is that you can make decent money while working in a half-assed manner. That's definitely not true of law. Law school and legal practice require long hours and intense attention to detail. Like the poster above me said, law school will consume you. Do you really want to give up having a life outside of work?

[Serett]

If I were you, I would not go. The beautiful thing here is that I don't really think you can go wrong because you're choosing between two very good options; however, do you really want to (roughly) double your hours for (roughly) double the pay? That's not really a raise so much as just letting you work more, and if you place a premium on your free time, I feel like you've already answered that question for yourself. That's not even mentioning the inherent, albeit more minor given your credentials and prospective school, risk in the law school path and whether you will like the job even if things work out. If I more-or-less liked my job (or found it fulfilling), and if it paid $90k/yr for 40 hour weeks, I wouldn't be going to law school (or if I did, it would only be due to shooting for "unicorn" work, not to do something ideally similar in the private-sector).

[Power_of_Facing]

If I were you, I would not go. The beautiful thing here is that I don't really think you can go wrong because you're choosing between two very good options; however, do you really want to (roughly) double your hours for (roughly) double the pay? That's not really a raise so much as just letting you work more, and if you place a premium on your free time, I feel like you've already answered that question for yourself. That's not even mentioning the inherent, albeit more minor given your credentials and prospective school, risk in the law school path and whether you will like the job even if things work out. If I more-or-less liked my job (or found it fulfilling), and if it paid $90k/yr for 40 hour weeks, I wouldn't be going to law school (or if I did, it would only be due to shooting for "unicorn" work, not to do something ideally similar in the private-sector).

What's not to like/find fulfilling about battling those insufferable Mighty Morphin Power Rangers?