Dream Career Possible? Forum

[LsatDork]

2014 college graduate here. Planning to work for a couple years before perhaps applying.
I was just wondering if there is any legal job at all that offers the sort of lifestyle I want. Basically, I went to a top classical music conservatory, things went very well, and I got fairly lucky with freelancing, subbing for orchestras, etc... it looks like I could do OK enough as a musician. I was always really interested in being a lawyer though (some law-related work/internship experience, nothing prestigious; know a fair amount of corporate lawyers; talked a lot to a few alumni of my school that ended up going the JD route).

I wonder if I'd be able to keep freelancing for a few hours a week or perhaps even play in an orchestra but also be a lawyer. Is there any legal jobs that allow for this lifestyle, meaning that I would work the same amount of hours as everyone else in my office, but perhaps be on a slightly different schedule on certain days (making up hours by staying as late as needed, and coming in on weekends on a regular basis). For instance, from what I have seen as a sub, in a typical week, a lot of orchestras have four 2.5 hours rehearsal (usually sometime between 10-5pm), and 3-4 concerts (maybe two at 8pm on weeknights, and one on a saturday night, and one weekend "matinee" concert) totaling about 18-20 hours of work per week. For this reason, most orchestral musicians also spend a lot of time teaching, and/or give other performances (solo, chamber music, etc...). Furthermore, a lot of orchestras only have a 30ish weeks season, which means that I would be able to work regular hours in the summer. I imagine that there must be parents that have a similar schedule to attend to their children's needs? Does this sound possible?

[DELG]

imagine that there must be parents that have a similar schedule to attend to their children's needs?

No.

And I can't think of any legal job this flexible. I guess hanging a shingle but malpractice so no.

[NYSprague]

2014 college graduate here. Planning to work for a couple years before perhaps applying.
I was just wondering if there is any legal job at all that offers the sort of lifestyle I want. Basically, I went to a top classical music conservatory, things went very well, and I got fairly lucky with freelancing, subbing for orchestras, etc... it looks like I could do OK enough as a musician. I was always really interested in being a lawyer though (some law-related work/internship experience, nothing prestigious; know a fair amount of corporate lawyers; talked a lot to a few alumni of my school that ended up going the JD route).

I wonder if I'd be able to keep freelancing for a few hours a week or perhaps even play in an orchestra but also be a lawyer. Is there any legal jobs that allow for this lifestyle, meaning that I would work the same amount of hours as everyone else in my office, but perhaps be on a slightly different schedule on certain days (making up hours by staying as late as needed, and coming in on weekends on a regular basis). For instance, from what I have seen as a sub, in a typical week, a lot of orchestras have four 2.5 hours rehearsal (usually sometime between 10-5pm), and 3-4 concerts (maybe two at 8pm on weeknights, and one on a saturday night, and one weekend "matinee" concert) totaling about 18-20 hours of work per week. For this reason, most orchestral musicians also spend a lot of time teaching, and/or give other performances (solo, chamber music, etc...). Furthermore, a lot of orchestras only have a 30ish weeks season, which means that I would be able to work regular hours in the summer. I imagine that there must be parents that have a similar schedule to attend to their children's needs? Does this sound possible?

I'm going to go with no as well. Maybe some people find a practice where they can do this, but I think they are solo practitioners or small firm practices that take a very limited number of cases, part time. Maybe immigration you could do this with?

The reality is that you will be spending or borrowing a large amount of money plus spending a huge amount of time to go to law school with an almost zero chance of a job that you want.

[LsatDork]

Thanks. I realize my post is a little misleading. I'm not asking whether or not I should go to law school. I was just wondering if perhaps somebody has facts or first-hand stories about having a somewhat flexible schedule (but as many hours as anybody else, not part-time) as a lawyer. I was thinking perhaps M&A or tax associates handling overseas transactions might be able to get a portion of their work done at odd times given the time difference or something. Hoping somebody would have more creative examples.

[DELG]

Thanks. I realize my post is a little misleading. I'm not asking whether or not I should go to law school. I was just wondering if perhaps somebody has facts or first-hand stories about having a somewhat flexible schedule (but as many hours as anybody else, not part-time) as a lawyer.

The fact of the matter is, I think it would be very easy to have a part time job as a lawyer if your side job were computer coding, or dressmaking, or something that can bend around your law schedule (which involves things like filing deadlines, court dates, deals closing at the whim of clients, and other similar time-sensitive issues). And I just can't think of any practice that would accommodate the kinds of things you're talking about, because the court/client's schedule is too tyrannical.

[prezidentv8]

I'll just say that law is a terribad idea for you.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I hope this is a flame, but no what you're describing is the opposite of being a lawyer

[LsatDork]

Interesting. I would have thought that if an associate is willing to be present 24/7 aside from 20 hours of outside work for 30 weeks (which means that they would be on the same schedule as everybody 43% of the year), they would be employable. I also doubt that most associated go to court or close deals right?

[bk1]

Moved to appropriate forum.

Reminder: the legal employment is not for 0Ls.

[NYSprague]

Interesting. I would have thought that if an associate is willing to be present 24/7 aside from 20 hours of outside work for 30 weeks (which means that they would be on the same schedule as everybody 43% of the year), they would be employable. I also doubt that most associated go to court or close deals right?

Who is doing your work for you when you aren't there?

[bk1]

Interesting. I would have thought that if an associate is willing to be present 24/7 aside from 20 hours of outside work for 30 weeks (which means that they would be on the same schedule as everybody 43% of the year), they would be employable. I also doubt that most associated go to court or close deals right?

Employers generally aren't willing to be all that flexible w/r/t when you work even if you are willing to work at other hours. Specifically for law firms, when they want something, they want it by a set deadline that isn't going to give you a ton of time to work around that. If you've got to finish something by 10pm tonight, it's not like you can say "sorry, I can't work from 5-9pm because I have this thing" continuously every day.

Just because associates don't go to court or manage deals doesn't mean they don't have to meet deadlines that relate to those cases/deals.

[guano]

Interesting. I would have thought that if an associate is willing to be present 24/7 aside from 20 hours of outside work for 30 weeks (which means that they would be on the same schedule as everybody 43% of the year), they would be employable.

How can you be present 24/7 if you need to be absent 20 hours a week?
let's see.
An associate is expected to bill on average, what, 40 hours a week? We also need to include non-billable activies, lunch, bathroom breaks. But how about when there's a big project? Not an exceptionally brutal period, just typical big project. Let's say that on a busy week you can be expected to put in 80 hours.
Add a fairly low, but not unreasonable 2 hours per day for activities of daily living, such as commuting, shower, shave, getting dressed, going to sleep, buying necessary items, etc. and a good 8 hours sleep per night , and you're at 150 hours a week. Now, let's add 20 hours a week, and you're at 170 in a week.
Except, there's only 168 hours in a week.

[LsatDork]

Thanks for moving the thread.

Yourself. When given tasks such as doc review, briefs, memos, legal research, etc..., those are things that can be done anytime right, as long as it's before the deadline. Instead of working on a task 9-12pm, you could do 6-9am if you plan right. I was reading through that really helpful thread "Lawyers: What's your typical day" and it seemed that there are very few same-day deadlines, and when there are, those are often COB deadlines, which means that taking 2.5 hours to go rehearse shouldn't preclude one from meeting them. I'm not asking "can you work less as a lawyer." Merely if a schedule such as 6am-10am and 1-11pm; or 5am-7pm might be possible on some days.

Mmh interesting guano, I do think 2 hours of "daily living" and 8 hours (!!!) of sleep is much more than I've ever had, maybe this is why I have such unrealistic career expectations. Orchestras also let people take time off (players often go to participate competitions or other auditions, or have to serve on committees for those), it's not like during a few busy weeks or a month in the year (aside from the 22 weeks already off) one wouldn't be able to fully commit to the law.

But without talking about how realistic this is time-wise, is there any firm or office (private or public sector) that would be comfortable with a lawyer working slight unconventional hours, as long as they got the work done on time?

[guano]

Thanks for moving the thread.

Yourself. When given tasks such as doc review, briefs, memos, legal research, etc..., those are things that can be done anytime right, as long as it's before the deadline. Instead of working on a task 9-12pm, you could do 6-9am if you plan right. I was reading through that really helpful thread "Lawyers: What's your typical day" and it seemed that there are very few same-day deadlines, and when there are, those are often COB deadlines, which means that taking 2.5 hours to go rehearse shouldn't preclude one from meeting them. I'm not asking "can you work less as a lawyer." Merely if a schedule such as 6am-10am and 1-11pm; or 5am-7pm might be possible on some days.

depends on your practice and the partner you're working under. In transactional work, it's entirely possible to be given a day's notice to do what should be a week's work. Litigation, from what I hear, isn't as unpredictable, but it's not unheard of to work for a dick partner who only ever gives assignments at the last minute

[DELG]

Interesting. I would have thought that if an associate is willing to be present 24/7 aside from 20 hours of outside work for 30 weeks (which means that they would be on the same schedule as everybody 43% of the year), they would be employable. I also doubt that most associated go to court or close deals right?

Well, I spent probably 30 hours in a courtroom this month. No, I wasn't in front of the bar, or arguing anything, but I needed to be there. But, it's true, it won't be like that at most large law firms in most practices. The problem really is you overestimate how flexible your schedule is. It's not very flexible at all as an associate. I easily have 80 hrs/month of free time. Unfortunately often it's like, all free time, all day, for 3 days and then fucked fucked fucked.

[DELG]

Thanks for moving the thread.

Yourself. When given tasks such as doc review, briefs, memos, legal research, etc..., those are things that can be done anytime right, as long as it's before the deadline. Instead of working on a task 9-12pm, you could do 6-9am if you plan right. I was reading through that really helpful thread "Lawyers: What's your typical day" and it seemed that there are very few same-day deadlines, and when there are, those are often COB deadlines, which means that taking 2.5 hours to go rehearse shouldn't preclude one from meeting them. I'm not asking "can you work less as a lawyer." Merely if a schedule such as 6am-10am and 1-11pm; or 5am-7pm might be possible on some days.

And I am telling you that partners expect you to respond to email, often with work product, all day, and this won't be acceptable.

[NYSprague]

So who goes to meetings, does conference calls, revises documents that have to be out ASAP, when you are out almost every afternoon and evening?

Is your plan you will just never sleep? Or need to respond to an urgent request?

What in the typical day of a lawyer made you think they could be gone and unreachable for hours in a day?

Also, most people work late to finish things because more senior people want to review them in the morning. They aren't going to wait around because you have another job you are doing every afternoon and night.

I made a 1st year hire a dog walker because she thought I would wait while she ran home and walked her dog. No way anyone has patience for someone to have a second job.

[LsatDork]

Thanks for moving the thread.

Yourself. When given tasks such as doc review, briefs, memos, legal research, etc..., those are things that can be done anytime right, as long as it's before the deadline. Instead of working on a task 9-12pm, you could do 6-9am if you plan right. I was reading through that really helpful thread "Lawyers: What's your typical day" and it seemed that there are very few same-day deadlines, and when there are, those are often COB deadlines, which means that taking 2.5 hours to go rehearse shouldn't preclude one from meeting them. I'm not asking "can you work less as a lawyer." Merely if a schedule such as 6am-10am and 1-11pm; or 5am-7pm might be possible on some days.

And I am telling you that partners expect you to respond to email, often with work product, all day, and this won't be acceptable.

Is this the same in the public sector? I just really imagined that there are parents and all sort of people who actually have such a schedule.

Everybody is unreachable for certain hours of the day right, whether it's 1am-7am or 10am-1pm. But you're right, I just finished college and got used to sleeping 4-6 hours nights and fitting practice, study, work, socializing, shopping, commuting from my off-campus apt , and feeling otherwise great, but I shouldn't forget that this isn't sustainable into somebody's late-20s and 30s.

I was reading this article earlier about a Canadian violinist for a major orchestra who spends the rest of his time working as a ER physician and raising his toddlers, and also I also got thinking about this paralegal I know working the night shift at a big NYC corporate firm. I had initially assumed that the fact that ER work is by nature shift-work made this possible for this violinist, but would be impossible for a lawyer, but the idea of a paralegal working the night shift made me think that perhaps it was, at the right firm, working with the right people (again not talking about every afternoon and evening, just 18-20 hours 30 weeks a year minus legal emergencies).

[DELG]

I strongly suspect public sector will be even less accommodating of that, having really very rigid schedules (my husband, working for the fed judiciary, has very strict constraints on even his lunch break).

Speaking as a parent, no, law is not accommodating of my parenting demands. In fact I only manage to pick my daughter up from daycare a few times a month, and I've had to bring her back to work with me because I got an email with something that needed to be done right then and my husband couldn't take her yet.

As for being unavailable, I would say I am only truly "unavailable" AFTER I know I am allowed to go home and it's also a normal sleeping time. But I've also been ripped out of bed at 11:00 to do some panicked research. While that's rarer in public sector, see above about rigid schedule.

The problem is, you don't want a dream career. You want two dream careers.

[NYSprague]

Thanks for moving the thread.

Yourself. When given tasks such as doc review, briefs, memos, legal research, etc..., those are things that can be done anytime right, as long as it's before the deadline. Instead of working on a task 9-12pm, you could do 6-9am if you plan right. I was reading through that really helpful thread "Lawyers: What's your typical day" and it seemed that there are very few same-day deadlines, and when there are, those are often COB deadlines, which means that taking 2.5 hours to go rehearse shouldn't preclude one from meeting them. I'm not asking "can you work less as a lawyer." Merely if a schedule such as 6am-10am and 1-11pm; or 5am-7pm might be possible on some days.

And I am telling you that partners expect you to respond to email, often with work product, all day, and this won't be acceptable.

Is this the same in the public sector? I just really imagined that there are parents and all sort of people who actually have such a schedule.

Everybody is unreachable for certain hours of the day right, whether it's 1am-7am or 10am-1pm. But you're right, I just finished college and got used to sleeping 4-6 hours nights and fitting practice, study, work, socializing, shopping, commuting from my off-campus apt , and feeling otherwise great, but I shouldn't forget that this isn't sustainable into somebody's late-20s and 30s.

I was reading this article earlier about a Canadian violinist for a major orchestra who spends the rest of his time working as a ER physician and raising his toddlers, and also I also got thinking about this paralegal I know working the night shift at a big NYC corporate firm. I had initially assumed that the fact that ER work is by nature shift-work made this possible for this violinist, but would be impossible for a lawyer, but the idea of a paralegal working the night shift made me think that perhaps it was, at the right firm, working with the right people (again not talking about every afternoon and evening, just 18-20 hours 30 weeks a year minus legal emergencies).

I don't understand why you think being gone and unavailable when people need you is going to work out. You keep repeating that it is only slightly more than half a year and that it won't be every day like that matters.

I'm glad you explained that you just graduated, but you seem to be insisting that your primary job should be flexible for your second job. Where is the sense in that?

A friend has kids and she works from home doing claims adjusting for an insurance company on a kind of split shift. Maybe a job like that would work out for you.

Practicing law has nothing in common with being an ER physician. I couldn't think of two more different jobs.

[LsatDork]

I thought I should clarify, because I wasn't sure if you had read my entire first post, or if perhaps subsequent readers would know, since you wrote: "you have another job you are doing every afternoon and night." The common denominator in the article I mentioned was being an orchestral musician and having another demanding job, I was not trying to correlate law and medicine in any way. I'm not necessarily thinking that "[my] primary job should be flexible for [my] second job." I'm asking this way around because this is a law forum, but I have been asking similar questions to my music friends, and some of them have had helpful answers, especially those doing freelance work rather than tenured orchestra work.

Do you know any more jobs like the one your friend has, please? Does your friend think this is a fulfilling professional situation? I was also reading about Rachel Rodgers Law Office and being an online lawyer for start-ups, but it seemed fishy. Any thoughts on those?

Yeah, I think I really do want those two dream jobs very badly. I spent many many hours practicing for the last 10 years and I love music. I also worked hard (3 jobs plus babysitting) to afford all that music stuff and my family made a lot of sacrifices (bow rehairs, music, traveling to auditions, summer programs are all very expensive things), but I also worked hard academically, maintained a good GPA, worked on my writing skills (1st gen immigrant=ESL) in hopes of getting into law school. Of course I'm not entitled to any of these careers, but I want to keep doing research on this, since I feel like there must be someone out there who was in a similar situation, at least in terms of scheduling conflicts, and made it work.

[DELG]

I want to keep doing research on this, since I feel like there must be someone out there who was in a similar situation, at least in terms of scheduling conflicts, and made it work.

How to make bad decisions:

Assume you're right

Look for information that is consistent with your conclusion

Disregard information that conflicts

[LsatDork]

Haha thank you, hadn't thought about it this way.

[NYSprague]

I don't know much about her job but it is more administrative than professional.

You should try to research companies that have flex time. I just don't know much about it.

I am sure there are very part time lawyers who can manage to be away. A friend adopted a daughter a few years ago and her lawyer just rented an office when she needed it and didn't take on more than a few clients at a time. I don't know how much she worked, but I'm sure she had to be available for panicked calls in the afternoon or evening. She also was highly recommended by the pre-eminent adoption agency in NYC, so she wasn't scrounging around for clients.

You would pretty much have to work for yourself. I don't know how you would create and maintain a business.

[DELG]

I was actually having this convo w someone today

Like, your ER doc, he does shift work, so he's better suited to wrapping work schedule around rehearsal

Being a lawyer is more like being a surgeon. You have your cases and you need to round on them and do the follow up visits and while someone covers for you overnight, your patient is really your problem and if shit goes wrong you're expected to come deal with it

Someone tried to schedule shit so I could sleep more but the result ended up being I had big gaps in my command of what was going on in the hearing and I ended up being frustrated that I wasn't up all night dealing with shit so I would have some idea why everything was different than when I left at 8 pm the night before

It's hard to pass the reins to someone else in law, which makes it incredibly hard to manage your schedule, instead your schedule manages you

I honestly don't think it would be better for a solo because clients fuck your schedule just as bad as partners

It'd sincerely be hard to come up with a job that's less amenable to scheduling shenanigans, being a pilot?