Denver (Sturm) to Colorado Transfer--Go or No? Forum

[ccody]

Hello everyone -

I'm a currently admitted 0L headed to Denver in the fall. I'm coming from the Midwest and have known for some time that Denver is where I'd like to be--probably long term. So, during admissions season, CU and DU were my top picks.

Not unlike many folks, I got in at DU with a scholarship and waitlisted (as of today) at CU.

I'm trying to think proactively about the transfer game. I've accepted at DU feeling like I could, in theory, finish there, particularly if more financial aid is offered down the road. But, if I'm able to do as well as I'd like, I'm wondering about if it's worth it to transfer--particularly from Denver to U Colorado. Not a huge rankings jump, but from scouring this forum as well as LinkedIn, I'm finding that CU might have better opportunities that a transfer might warrant.

Specifically, would a transfer from Denver to CU be worth it in the following regards:
- employment prospects in Denver/Colorado in general?
- clerkships (specifically Colorado Supreme Court)?
- federal jobs (I'm very interested in environmental law, so probably DOE, DOI, or even DOJ)?
- at all in any regard?

Thanks, all. Appreciate any feedback you might have.

[deadpanic]

If you get good enough grades to transfer from DU to CU, which is unlikely, you should just stay at DU.

Neither schools are good for competitive jobs like DOJ. I can't speak to CO Supreme Court clerkships but that is such a low chance of happening that it shouldn't really be a consideration.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Moved to correct forum.

[ccody]

If you get good enough grades to transfer from DU to CU, which is unlikely, you should just stay at DU.

Neither schools are good for competitive jobs like DOJ. I can't speak to CO Supreme Court clerkships but that is such a low chance of happening that it shouldn't really be a consideration.

Excellent thoughts. Thank you.

RE: CO Supreme Court clerkships. Low chance of happening because of the two schools or because so few people, regardless of school, get these positions?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Retake for CU w/ in-state next cycle. Also only a couple people a year get federal work or state Supreme Court clerkships...

Either go to DU now and readjust employment goals or retake LSAT for CU, or T14 if you have ties to Colorado.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

If you get good enough grades to transfer from DU to CU, which is unlikely, you should just stay at DU.

Neither schools are good for competitive jobs like DOJ. I can't speak to CO Supreme Court clerkships but that is such a low chance of happening that it shouldn't really be a consideration.

Excellent thoughts. Thank you.

RE: CO Supreme Court clerkships. Low chance of happening because of the two schools or because so few people, regardless of school, get these positions?

Yeah there are only seven justices... They usually have one clerk.

So there are 7 of them.

10% of CU will get state appellate. No idea about DU.

[ccody]

Retake for CU w/ in-state next cycle. Also only a couple people a year get federal work or state Supreme Court clerkships...

Either go to DU now and readjust employment goals or retake LSAT for CU, or T14 if you have ties to Colorado.

What would be an appropriate readjustment for career goals as a DU graduate be?

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you get good enough grades to transfer from DU to CU, which is unlikely, you should just stay at DU.

Neither schools are good for competitive jobs like DOJ. I can't speak to CO Supreme Court clerkships but that is such a low chance of happening that it shouldn't really be a consideration.

Excellent thoughts. Thank you.

RE: CO Supreme Court clerkships. Low chance of happening because of the two schools or because so few people, regardless of school, get these positions?

Yeah there are only seven justices... They usually have one clerk.

So there are 7 of them.

10% of CU will get state appellate. No idea about DU.

The Colorado SSC justices have 2 clerks, actually. (So do most of the COA, although some of those are career clerks.) Still not a lot of positions, of course.

[LeDique]

Retake for CU w/ in-state next cycle. Also only a couple people a year get federal work or state Supreme Court clerkships...

Either go to DU now and readjust employment goals or retake LSAT for CU, or T14 if you have ties to Colorado.

What would be an appropriate readjustment for career goals as a DU graduate be?

Same as a CU graduate—expect to work at a firm having 2–10 attorneys making 50k/yr or in a state gov't office (mainly PD/DA)


I would actually do this transfer just for cheaper tuition. That's literally the only reason to do it.

[ccody]

Anyone else have any thoughts or contributions to this issue? I feel like there are a lot of folks in this boat.

[Trig]

.

[WheatThins]

Why don't you just retake the lsat and go to CU then? That will be much easier than trying to transfer.

[shock259]

How much are you going to be paying at DU? It's a really expensive school with sub par employment outcomes. CU will give you improved employment outcomes and cost less (in-state tuition). Retake.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/CO/

The TLS mantra is "don't go to a school with the intent to transfer." And there's good reason for that. Effort alone won't get you top grades. And a lot of your success is based on things that are out of your control. It's a big gamble. No reason to go all-in this early in the game.

[ccody]

It is never a good idea to go a school with the plan of transferring to another. For what it is worth, somebody who I know that just graduated this past May said he saw an obvious difference in working with/the work product of CU students versus DU students. The difference did not favor the DU students. Another person, who works in the Denver market, said he would not go to DU even for free. If you are certain you want to go to one of the Colorado schools, then I would make it CU over DU.

Thanks for this insight. The advice to not go to a school with the intention to transfer is certainly good advice and something I hear often. I implemented this by only applying to schools that I was comfortable attending long-term, and that is still true for DU. But, given the opportunity to transfer to CU, I'm wondering if it would be worth it. It seems like, from employment prospects and general cohort standards, it might be--depending on the financial implications.

Why don't you just retake the lsat and go to CU then? That will be much easier than trying to transfer.

Unfortunately, time is my biggest concern here. I've already taken a few years off after undergrad and don't want to wait too much longer. Moving to the area has already been set in motion as well, so I'm afraid it might be a bit too late for that.

How much are you going to be paying at DU? It's a really expensive school with sub par employment outcomes. CU will give you improved employment outcomes and cost less (in-state tuition). Retake.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/CO/

The TLS mantra is "don't go to a school with the intent to transfer." And there's good reason for that. Effort alone won't get you top grades. And a lot of your success is based on things that are out of your control. It's a big gamble. No reason to go all-in this early in the game.

I'll be paying $21k/year at DU thanks to a scholarship. I'll also be able to claim in-state tuition after a year, which would make CU $31/year if I transferred. All things considered, it would be a total increase of $20k to attend CU.

Though all of this might change once I'm attending classes, my intention is to clerk for the first year at the highest level possible (probably CO COA, but preferably CO SC). After that, I'm hoping to work for the federal government within environmental law. I realize both of these are difficult to achieve, which leads me to want to be as unhindered by my school as possible. Because schools are still a bit vague about where their graduates end up, I've been scouring LinkedIn, which has far and away suggested CU is better on both fronts. Both are still rare and would take a bit of luck, but CU graduates seem to have a bit of a leg up, if I'm not mistaken.

[WheatThins]

What is the total COA at DU?

You should get ready to focus on doing well your first year, and put transfering out of your mind once law school begins.

Good luck

[mountaintime]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

Yeah. Everybody who doesn't get big law is fucked. Solid post.

[ccody]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

You seem to assume that the only desirable outcome from attending law school is Big Law. If that were true, I'd see the wisdom in your post. Seeing as how it isn't, however...

[mountaintime]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

Yeah. Everybody who doesn't get big law is fucked. Solid post.

I know that biglaw is not the end all be all. I know that there is more out there--fed, state, PD, DA, small law. I also know that only about 10% of each of these classes gets desirable jobs. The rest fight over the scraps. The chances of getting bigfed or a non-biglaw job that pays more than $50k is even worse than your chance at getting biglaw. Denver is toast. It is so fucking saturated. Everyone wants to be in Denver. All the CU and du people as well as a good amount of t14 and other OOS competiton.

90% of each class is financially fucked unless they can live off their parents, and I'm not just talking about during school. Seriously, 90% of each of these schools made a terrible financial decision. Only consider these schools if you are okay with poverty or your parents can and will pay for everything.

With all of that said, I think CPD is a sweet gig if you get the right office and don't mind being poor.

[mountaintime]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

You seem to assume that the only desirable outcome from attending law school is Big Law. If that were true, I'd see the wisdom in your post. Seeing as how it isn't, however...

Thanks for the insight, 0L. How about this... You tell me what type of job you want. If it is a good job, I will tell you how unlikely you are to get it coming from either of these schools. I know there is more than biglaw. I also know du and CU and the Denver and CO legal market fairly well. It's crazy competitive. Good luck to you.

[LeDique]

holy shit lol

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

Yeah. Everybody who doesn't get big law is fucked. Solid post.

I know that biglaw is not the end all be all. I know that there is more out there--fed, state, PD, DA, small law. I also know that only about 10% of each of these classes gets desirable jobs. The rest fight over the scraps. The chances of getting bigfed or a non-biglaw job that pays more than $50k is even worse than your chance at getting biglaw. Denver is toast. It is so fucking saturated. Everyone wants to be in Denver. All the CU and du people as well as a good amount of t14 and other OOS competiton.

90% of each class is financially fucked unless they can live off their parents, and I'm not just talking about during school. Seriously, 90% of each of these schools made a terrible financial decision. Only consider these schools if you are okay with poverty or your parents can and will pay for everything.

With all of that said, I think CPD is a sweet gig if you get the right office and don't mind being poor.

I see you go to WUSTL. By your standards, 75% of WUSTL is also fucked.

Just reading your post again I can't help but think your trolling..

[mountaintime]

Think long and hard before attending either DU or CU. 90% of students at each school are basically fucked. There are like 20 biglaw job in Denver each year. They go to the tippy top students from DU/CU plus the hometown t14ers.

The job prospects from each of these schools is terrible, and there is so little difference between the terrible job prospects that the only reason to transfer would be for the lower tuition at CU.

Yeah. Everybody who doesn't get big law is fucked. Solid post.

I know that biglaw is not the end all be all. I know that there is more out there--fed, state, PD, DA, small law. I also know that only about 10% of each of these classes gets desirable jobs. The rest fight over the scraps. The chances of getting bigfed or a non-biglaw job that pays more than $50k is even worse than your chance at getting biglaw. Denver is toast. It is so fucking saturated. Everyone wants to be in Denver. All the CU and du people as well as a good amount of t14 and other OOS competiton.

90% of each class is financially fucked unless they can live off their parents, and I'm not just talking about during school. Seriously, 90% of each of these schools made a terrible financial decision. Only consider these schools if you are okay with poverty or your parents can and will pay for everything.

With all of that said, I think CPD is a sweet gig if you get the right office and don't mind being poor.

I see you go to WUSTL. By your standards, 75% of WUSTL is also fucked.

Just reading your post again I can't help but think your trolling..

Yes, I went to wustl. And yes, probably 75% of wustl made a financially disastrous decision. I'm really not trying to be a jerk to you or OP. I'm trying to help OP. I have been fortunate enough to get a good job, but so many of my smart, talented, hardworking classmates have not. I'm just trying to warn OP. Like so many others, I didn't realize just how bad things were when I made the decision to go to law school. Don't let my mistake detract from my message--do your homework by talking to recent grads. 1Ls don't know shit, they haven't yet tried to get paid jobs. The students picked by the school also cannot be trusted (for obvious reasons) . OP should talk to 3Ls and the class of 11, 12, and 13 so that s/he knows what s/he's getting into. I'm really just trying to help. I know I was blunt, but I know smart people at CU and du who are fucked. I'm just trying to spread the truth. The fact that op would even ask about transferring to CU for better job prospects shows how little s/he knows about these two schools and the CO market.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I see you go to WUSTL. By your standards, 75% of WUSTL is also fucked.

Just reading your post again I can't help but think your trolling..

Yes, I went to wustl. And yes, probably 75% of wustl made a financially disastrous decision. I'm really not trying to be a jerk to you or OP. I'm trying to help OP. I have been fortunate enough to get a good job, but so many of my smart, talented, hardworking classmates have not. I'm just trying to warn OP. Like so many others, I didn't realize just how bad things were when I made the decision to go to law school. Don't let my mistake detract from my message--do your homework by talking to recent grads. 1Ls don't know shit, they haven't yet tried to get paid jobs. The students picked by the school also cannot be trusted (for obvious reasons) . OP should talk to 3Ls and the class of 11, 12, and 13 so that s/he knows what s/he's getting into. I'm really just trying to help. I know I was blunt, but I know smart people at CU and du who are fucked. I'm just trying to spread the truth. The fact that op would even ask about transferring to CU for better job prospects shows how little s/he knows about these two schools and the CO market.

You're an alarmist. 23% of students who graduate from CU Law have zero debt. So that knocks your 90% down a tad… Then you have 10% big law, 7-10% appellate clerks, which is a great outcome in CO and pays more than 50k, 25% PI score which includes PDs and DAs, nearly all of whom make more than 50k (DAs in all of the metro counties make 60 or very close to 60, even Greeley had an ad the other day for a county person for 58k). We haven't even gotten to normal people law firms, which employ about 30% of the class. The vast majority pay more than 50k. I think the bottom 25th percentile for CU firms was 60k… And fuck man all of these are STARTING salaries. Financial ruin? I know people that are four years out and have taken standard raises at DA, they are 90k now, still LRAP'n it.

So, you need to calm the fuck down. 75% of your classmates from WUSTL are not fucked. Please exit your bunker and enjoy the day. Its 70 degrees on this beautiful Colorado evening and I'm going outside.

[mountaintime]

I see you go to WUSTL. By your standards, 75% of WUSTL is also fucked.

Just reading your post again I can't help but think your trolling..

Yes, I went to wustl. And yes, probably 75% of wustl made a financially disastrous decision. I'm really not trying to be a jerk to you or OP. I'm trying to help OP. I have been fortunate enough to get a good job, but so many of my smart, talented, hardworking classmates have not. I'm just trying to warn OP. Like so many others, I didn't realize just how bad things were when I made the decision to go to law school. Don't let my mistake detract from my message--do your homework by talking to recent grads. 1Ls don't know shit, they haven't yet tried to get paid jobs. The students picked by the school also cannot be trusted (for obvious reasons) . OP should talk to 3Ls and the class of 11, 12, and 13 so that s/he knows what s/he's getting into. I'm really just trying to help. I know I was blunt, but I know smart people at CU and du who are fucked. I'm just trying to spread the truth. The fact that op would even ask about transferring to CU for better job prospects shows how little s/he knows about these two schools and the CO market.

You're an alarmist. 23% of students who graduate from CU Law have zero debt. So that knocks your 90% down a tad… Then you have 10% big law, 7-10% appellate clerks, which is a great outcome in CO and pays more than 50k, 25% PI score which includes PDs and DAs, nearly all of whom make more than 50k (DAs in all of the metro counties make 60 or very close to 60, even Greeley had an ad the other day for a county person for 58k). We haven't even gotten to normal people law firms, which employ about 30% of the class. The vast majority pay more than 50k. I think the bottom 25th percentile for CU firms was 60k… And fuck man all of these are STARTING salaries. Financial ruin? I know people that are four years out and have taken standard raises at DA, they are 90k now, still LRAP'n it.

So, you need to calm the fuck down. 75% of your classmates from WUSTL are not fucked. Please exit your bunker and enjoy the day. Its 70 degrees on this beautiful Colorado evening and I'm going outside.

Ok, so 10% of the class makes $100k+ and the rest make $50k-$60k and are on repayment plans? Wow, how could I have mistaken those as bad outcomes?