Paths to Fewer Hours Forum

[Ehrler]

Soliciting opinions from lawyers working 50hrs/wk or less: If pay isn't an issue (provided >= 50k), what are good career options for keeping the hours down and what steps would you take (would have/did take) before, during, and after law school to set yourself up for being a lawyer with a life?

To get a few obvious things out of the way:

Very Low/No Debt.

government lawyer (specify/review?)

Terminal Clerkships

Thanks!

[twenty]

Not an attorney, but there's a couple reasons why your question isn't getting answered. Being as that I'm not an attorney, I'm not going to answer your question -- plus, I think you answered it yourself.

I picked UPenn as an example. Right off the bat, you can see:

- 59.8% are in large law firms. Those people are not working <50 hours/week.
- 15.9% are in clerkships. Depending on the judge, these people are probably working at least 50 hours a week, but this is an irrelevant number because 1) these jobs are temporary, and as soon as they're done, these people will go back to working more than 50 hours a week, and 2) a lot of clerks work long hours regardless.
- 5.4% are in public interest. These people are likely working long hours.
- 5.8% of these people are in JD advantage jobs. These people are probably working lower hours, but they're not practicing law.
- 3.1% are unemployed. No explanation needed.

When you combine all these together, you have 90% of the graduating class.

Now, suppose you took the strong regional with a full ride instead:

At Boston College you have

- 29.6% in large firms.
- 9.4% in clerkships
- 12.3% unemployed.
- Add a separate 18.1% from JD Advantage and "Professional" because 1) these aren't attorneys, and 2) they don't fall under any of the above categories because they're neither unemployed not in JD-required positions.

The numbers here get a little fuzzier because of the rollover from underemployment (which I excluded), but you have a roughly 70% of the class that's unquestioningly doing serious hours.

tl;dr, If data alone presents that the significant majority of attorneys won't be in the hypothetical situation you're suggesting (where you can work 45ish hours and make 50k+), you may be waiting a while before someone who's in this situation can answer your question. (hint hint -- which should tell you something.)

[unc0mm0n1]

In my experience JAG attorneys normally work less than 50 hours (esp. if you aren't in military justice) and if you add in benefits you get paid quite a bit more than 50K.

[TheGreatFish]

I work in smaller firm with roughly 20 attorneys. Starting salary here is usually between 60k-80k with benefits. Typical work week is between 40 and 50 hrs, but it can go as high as 60 depending on what's going on with your cases.

Apart from the hours, one of the benefits that people don't mention much is the quality of the work you receive. I very rarely get anything that I would call grunt work. My first month in I was doing a lot of law and motion practice. Within the first three months I was taking depositions. Within the first 6 months I was making appearances in court and arguing my motions and opps. My understanding of Big Law is that they won't let you near anything remotely important until you've spent a few years rummaging through boxes of discovery production.

If you're looking to trade the enormous salary for an opportunity to have a career and live a life outside of work, you might want to start looking into small law.

[papercut]

I work in smaller firm with roughly 20 attorneys. Starting salary here is usually between 60k-80k with benefits. Typical work week is between 40 and 50 hrs, but it can go as high as 60 depending on what's going on with your cases.

Apart from the hours, one of the benefits that people don't mention much is the quality of the work you receive. I very rarely get anything that I would call grunt work. My first month in I was doing a lot of law and motion practice. Within the first three months I was taking depositions. Within the first 6 months I was making appearances in court and arguing my motions and opps. My understanding of Big Law is that they won't let you near anything remotely important until you've spent a few years rummaging through boxes of discovery production.

If you're looking to trade the enormous salary for an opportunity to have a career and live a life outside of work, you might want to start looking into small law.

Thanks for posting.

What are your partnership prospects?

How long do new hires stay at your firm before moving on?

Do you know what they end up moving on to?

[paul554]

Realistically, if you want complete control over your hours the only option is to open your own firm. While most solo attorneys work long hours, it is done on your own schedule with no one else controlling your actions. The downsides are of course huge. You have no gurantee of income, all expenses are paid by you, and even the best lawyer can fail if they don't market themselves right. So what is the low hour, good pay job with benefits that everyone wants? Honestly, if we knew it we probably wouldn't share simply because we'd all be going after it!
The few that do pop up, such as JAG, are hyper competitive and have their downsides as well. In the end it's all very subjective and no one can give you a one size fits all answer.

[JusticeHarlan]

Realistically, if you want complete control over your hours the only option is to open your own firm. While most solo attorneys work long hours, it is done on your own schedule with no one else controlling your actions.

Except for clients, court schedules, filing deadlines and other such nuisances. Some practice areas are more regular than others (T&E has that reputation), but even if you go solo, it's still a service industry. That's why many government jobs are the best thing going for hours, no real client.

[Ehrler]

Yeah I definitely could have foreseen the drawbacks to solo practice. Mid-small law was something I was curious about, but I wonder how much they emulate the rest of the entry level job market in that having a personal connection means much more than credentials from a good school.

Legal academia was another point of interest. Would it be absurd to think any Law professors are in the house?

[UnicornHunter]

*never mind, 0L*

[El Principe]

.... In-House?

Or are we just suggesting entry level positions...?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah I definitely could have foreseen the drawbacks to solo practice. Mid-small law was something I was curious about, but I wonder how much they emulate the rest of the entry level job market in that having a personal connection means much more than credentials from a good school.

Legal academia was another point of interest. Would it be absurd to think any Law professors are in the house?

It would be absurd to think you'll get a job in legal academia, generally speaking. The hours are certainly going to be better than biglaw and you'd have a lot more autonomy, but not everyone is going to enjoy how legal academics spend their time. (Disclaimer: former academic, not a legal academic. They get paid way more than I ever was.)

[TheGreatFish]

I work in smaller firm with roughly 20 attorneys. Starting salary here is usually between 60k-80k with benefits. Typical work week is between 40 and 50 hrs, but it can go as high as 60 depending on what's going on with your cases.

Apart from the hours, one of the benefits that people don't mention much is the quality of the work you receive. I very rarely get anything that I would call grunt work. My first month in I was doing a lot of law and motion practice. Within the first three months I was taking depositions. Within the first 6 months I was making appearances in court and arguing my motions and opps. My understanding of Big Law is that they won't let you near anything remotely important until you've spent a few years rummaging through boxes of discovery production.

If you're looking to trade the enormous salary for an opportunity to have a career and live a life outside of work, you might want to start looking into small law.

Thanks for posting.

What are your partnership prospects?

How long do new hires stay at your firm before moving on?

Do you know what they end up moving on to?

Partnership prospects are low. Smaller size firms don't add a lot of new partners. They also don't drop attorneys who have been there for a while the way Big Law will. My firm has a few attorneys who have been there for 10+ years who will never make partner.

New hires stick around for about 2-3 years. They move on to various places. Some go to other firms, some start their own practice. A surprising number actually go in-house, especially at insurance companies. I'm not sure if being in-house at an insurance company is different than being in-house anywhere else. I've heard it's a lot of work, but I'm pretty sure that being in-house anywhere is probably a lot more work than most people on this forum realize.