Paying sticker + PI…is it even possible? Forum

[TheRealJoshuaLyman]

During the current cycle, NYU was always a top choice for me. My SO of many years just got a new job in the city, I love NYC, and I have some ties to the area. I was waitlisted and thought it was all over, but this past week was taken off the waitlist and accepted. After the initial shock of acceptance wore off, the fear of paying 300+ thousands in loans in the future set in. From looking at past cycles, it seems that coming off of the waitlist at NYU most likely means paying sticker, especially because I have below median numbers. I know that NYU boasts great outcomes in PI and great resources for it as well, but is it even a possibility to do PI coming right out of school there after taking out full loans? I have always been very PI driven and have a lot of background/WE in it, and want to continue that in law school. The thought of taking out loans in the amount of 300+ is just terrifying to me, especially for my goals, so I was wondering if anyone had any anecdotal evidence or knew anyone who had done so and was still able to go PI.

Thanks in advance.

[Nebby]

Check into their loan repayment forgiveness program. Also, did GULC not give you any money? Or is it NYU or bust? Also, if you're doing PI did you not get into any other school offering you money?

[tomwatts]

Yes, it is possible. Be sure to read all the fine print, but it looks like any other top school's LRAP (which means that low-paying PI results in all of your loans being forgiven).

[Theopliske8711]

I mean, do you want people to tell you that it can be done? There are anecdotes a-plenty. For anything. It's different living it out, however. Other people telling you that they do it won't really tell you much about how you can fare. You really are just looking for an excuse to do it. I don't blame you, we all do it and its an unfortunate part of the law school process. However, I can't in anyway recommend it personally.

[koalacity]

Disclaimer: 0L, but one who has researched LRAPs and PI placement extensively and has family members and friends doing PI with large amounts of debt.

Fortunately for you, NYU's LRAP is arguably the most generous program there is-it has full coverage up to $80,000, and some coverage even above that. Most PI (excluding fedgov and a handful of others) will be below that income cap. NYU's PI placement is also very strong, so the chances of you being able to find a PI job out of NYU are significantly better than out of GULC.

VERY IMPORTANT CAVEAT: if you are married to your SO and your SO makes more than you expect to make, it will negatively impact your ability to qualify for LRAP coverage. There are only a few LRAPs that don't factor in spousal income (Chicago and Michigan are two that I can remember off the top of my head), so you should discuss with your SO how this will impact your ability to get married, if you aren't already. If you are already married and your SO makes more than your projected future income, this changes the calculus.

The reality with (almost all) PI is that it doesn't especially matter whether you take out $100K or $300K in loans-you'll be stuck in LRAP eligible jobs for 10 years either way (at which point-assuming PSLF doesn't go away or NYU modifies their LRAP to not be dependent on PSLF and PAYE-the debt will be forgiven). If you were looking at $300K at NYU vs. $30K elsewhere, it'd be a different story, because $30K is a reasonable enough amount that you'd be able to pay it off and not be locked into LRAP-eligible jobs for a decade. But again, whether you take out $300K or $100K, you're going to have a huge amount of debt hanging over your head for a decade and will be giving up job flexibility during that time.

Note that this is assuming you're 100% committed to PI. You mention having prior PI-related WE, which is very important. If you go to NYU and change your mind and hop on the biglaw boat, you'll be stuck paying back that nearly-insurmountable amount of debt.

Also, will your SO be able to help with COL if you attend NYU?

[Nebby]

NYU being significantly better at placement from GULC is misleading. Lots of PI placement has just as much to do with demonstrable commitment to PI as law school grades. Some froyo broyo with a perfect GPA at NYU who can't prove a commitment to nor show experience in PI won't get a PI job. That's why BigFed is so competitive. Everyone has the grades (those that make it to the final round), so who actually wins is who can actually articulate a PI commitment.

[worldtraveler]

What kind of PI do you want to do?

[lecsa]

Holy crap - do not pay sticker for PI. Do not pay sticker for biglaw. Do not pay sticker period.

[FlanAl]

NYU has a great reputation on here because their lrap plugs into the fed system and you don't have to pay anything. The issue with lraps like these are that you're totally screwed if you aren't able to do 10 years of PI for whatever reason. I'd ask them what sort of support they have for people who get laid off from PI etc..

I've seen a few NYU kids at public interest events and my internships but way less than I would have expected. I don't think they necessarily have the presence TLS thinks they do but people in the PI world will mention that they are good for PI often (they also say that about CUNY). They do give you a $5k grant for every summer that you do PI which is solid, other schools give you $ but plug you into work study which stinks. They have a lot of very reputable clinics and professors that could be influential in landing you a job.

Did you get into any lower ranked t14s with money? I'm not sure NYU gives you a distinct advantage for PI over Duke or Northwestern. Also some of the lower ranked schools have lraps that make you contribute more but allow you to leave PI way earlier while still making a dent in your loans.

[midwest17]

FlanAl - what lower ranked schools have the sort of LRAPs you're describing? I haven't seen a school with a better LRAP than NYU (other than Chicago, for those who will be married to partners with high income, and Yale, for its incredible flexibility).

[sd5289]

No, no, no. Even though PSLF survived this first strike, I have no doubt it will come under fire again and again when the cost of the program becomes more fully realized. That leaves the LRAP's of individual schools, and while I've heard good things about both NYU and Harvard's, most other schools LRAP's will be "nice to have" but not enough to pay off a sticker-worth of debt.

Since taking a PI track limits your options in terms of making money, if for some reason the assistance just stops (say, continually dropping people attending law school + more schools having to pay more in scholarships just to get people to attend = fewer people paying tuition, which = less money available to funnel into school LRAP programs), you're 100% screwed. I'll admit that from this vantage point, taking out substantial loans for PI seems entirely doable with the combination of PSLF, PAYE, LRAP, etc., but predictions about all of those are short-term. Going to any school at sticker is an incredibly long-term debt.

[FlanAl]

FlanAl - what lower ranked schools have the sort of LRAPs you're describing? I haven't seen a school with a better LRAP than NYU (other than Chicago, for those who will be married to partners with high income, and Yale, for its incredible flexibility).

I guess its a debate between what is better. I think that the one's that don't make you enroll in PSLF are better. Yes, you have to pay more BUT you get the security of being able to leave PI before 10 years with some of the debt actually paid. The schools didn't switch to these combo PSLF things because its necessarily better for the student, they switched because its way cheaper for them to service your PSLF payments than it is for them to actually pay your loans. I know that Cornell and Columbia don't force your to plug into PSLF and I don't think Penn does either but I'm not sure and will let the prospective students do their own research into this.

The main complaint is that you pay more and you have to contribute kind of a lot once you get to 70k or whatever, but the first few years are where you have the highest risk of being canned, after that switch to PSLF and stay in for another 10 years and get everything forgiven.

[midwest17]

The risk of retroactive capping of PSLF has been overhyped here, IMO. But it is a risk to consider, however small it is.

[FlanAl]

i'm talking more about the risk of people being forced into private practice because of budget cuts etc. before being able to complete the 10 years.

[midwest17]

i'm talking more about the risk of people being forced into private practice because of budget cuts etc. before being able to complete the 10 years.

Sorry, your post snuck in and I didn't see it; I was responding to sd.

I wasn't aware that Cornell and Penn still had non-PSLF programs, that's interesting. Columbia, of course, isn't lower-ranked.

Personally I'd go with the programs like NYU's that give you greater benefits rather than flexibility, but of course it depends on the degree of your commitment.

[NYSprague]

How much debt will you really have? Can your SO support you through school?

[FlanAl]

i'm talking more about the risk of people being forced into private practice because of budget cuts etc. before being able to complete the 10 years.

Sorry, your post snuck in and I didn't see it; I was responding to sd.

I wasn't aware that Cornell and Penn still had non-PSLF programs, that's interesting. Columbia, of course, isn't lower-ranked.

Personally I'd go with the programs like NYU's that give you greater benefits rather than flexibility, but of course it depends on the degree of your commitment.

See thats my worry, I don't think its so much about personal commitment as it is about the risk involved in taking these jobs funding can disappear and you can get canned before you finish your ten years. A lot of people use the PSLF thats debt over your head for 10 years what if you lose your job argument, well at a few schools you will have at least made a dent in that debt.

[midwest17]

i'm talking more about the risk of people being forced into private practice because of budget cuts etc. before being able to complete the 10 years.

Sorry, your post snuck in and I didn't see it; I was responding to sd.

I wasn't aware that Cornell and Penn still had non-PSLF programs, that's interesting. Columbia, of course, isn't lower-ranked.

Personally I'd go with the programs like NYU's that give you greater benefits rather than flexibility, but of course it depends on the degree of your commitment.

See thats my worry, I don't think its so much about personal commitment as it is about the risk involved in taking these jobs funding can disappear and you can get canned before you finish your ten years. A lot of people use the PSLF thats debt over your head for 10 years what if you lose your job argument, well at a few schools you will have at least made a dent in that debt.

The first PI job is the hardest to get. If you have the PI commitment in law school, and land a PI job after graduation and then get fired, a new PI job is going to be far, far easier to get than any other option that gives you a chance at paying off your loans, IMO. Even at the schools with non-PSLF LRAPs, you're not going to pay down your debt enough in 1-2 years (or even 5 years, probably) to have a good shot at paying it off without LRAP with anything but BigLaw.

[Elston Gunn]

The risk of retroactive capping of PSLF has been overhyped here, IMO. But it is a risk to consider, however small it is.

This person won't make a payment for close to 4 years. It wouldn't have to be retrospective.

[midwest17]

The risk of retroactive capping of PSLF has been overhyped here, IMO. But it is a risk to consider, however small it is.

This person won't make a payment for close to 4 years. It wouldn't have to be retrospective.

It's not going to be legally retroactive for anyone. But it would appear retroactive for anyone who took out loans under certain expectations. There's a reason that eligibility for these sorts of programs is always framed in terms of date of original loan.

[Elston Gunn]

The risk of retroactive capping of PSLF has been overhyped here, IMO. But it is a risk to consider, however small it is.

This person won't make a payment for close to 4 years. It wouldn't have to be retrospective.

It's not going to be legally retroactive for anyone. But it would appear retroactive for anyone who took out loans under certain expectations. There's a reason that eligibility for these sorts of programs is always framed in terms of date of original loan.

I agree it probably won't happen, but the chances of that happening are at least higher than something truly retroactive.

[FlanAl]

I think you're definitely right about that except that I feel like having the safety net to go private if you get pushed out is pretty huge. I mean there's commitment and then there's uprooting your family, taking another bar and pounding pavement for a while commitment. That said you can always leave PI and come back to it to finish up the 10 years for forgiveness right?

If they get rid of PSLF the top schools will just go back to their pre PSLF lraps. Public interest gives schools prestige and they don't want to lose it. I think PSLF is a minor risk for people going full freight at a school that never had an lrap program but at schools with established ones prior to PSLF I really don't see the government getting rid of it as a risk.

[sd5289]

The risk of retroactive capping of PSLF has been overhyped here, IMO. But it is a risk to consider, however small it is.

This I agree with, but my impression is OP is a 0L. The risk of retroactive capping is low, but people who are 0L's when (not if) it gets capped will be SOL.

[midwest17]

The risk of retroactive capping of PSLF has been overhyped here, IMO. But it is a risk to consider, however small it is.

This I agree with, but my impression is OP is a 0L. The risk of retroactive capping is low, but people who are 0L's when (not if) it gets capped will be SOL.

OP is going next fall. I don't think it's going to get capped in the next 4 months.

I would be incredibly surprised if full PSLF isn't around at least through c/o 2018.

Flan: do you really think that PI layoff -> private is a more realistic backup plan than PI layoff -> PI? Especially if you're at the kind of PI place where you're at high risk for layoff, and given that "private" really means "BigLaw"? I have no interest in that lateral market so I'm really not sure, but it just doesn't seem plausible to me. The flexibility is worth something, of course, but you end up paying so much more over the lifetime of the loan...

[lecsa]

Retroactive capping is a real risk, as is losing grant funding for PI jobs. A lot of PI jobs are funded year to year depending on how your organization's fundraising is doing. Plus a lot of PI jobs pay less than regular office jobs that don't require grad degrees. It's going to be tough paying your bills in a city unless you have a significant other to help you bear a lot of the costs.

If you want PI, have your parents pay or get a full ride somewhere. Most PI isn't even that prestige-oriented. At least in NYC, a lot of PI orgs have attorneys from TTTs like the CUNYs, etc. As an example, I know someone who works at a NYC org and half the grads are NYU, Michigan, GULC grads and the other half are CUNY, etc. grads. Your dedication to PI is a lot more important to many of these orgs than your law school.