Are we entering a rat race? Forum

[1Lin2015]

I'm currently a 0L studying for the LSAT and applying to Law School next cycle. I have done a lot of research on legal practices, biglaw, PI, government work, legal academia, and law school itself. And the more I find out the more risky, for lack of a better word, attending law school becomes. I wanted to ask law students and graduates if you ever get the sentiment that you are in one really big rat race?

By this, I mean we study hard, as undergraduates, in order to get into a good law school. Then, we are graded on a curve against our peers in law school. Assuming we succeed in law school and biglaw employment (as is the goal of many of us coming in), we work in an environment that necessitates the firing of a significant portion of the incoming associate class (not all of us can make partner) after 4-7 years. What then? We either take a paycut (government work, in house counsel) or dabble in other risky endeavors (switch industries, start your own firm, lateral).

I guess I'm rehashing a lot of the research I have been exposed to on TLS, and through other sources. While I might just be looking for confirmation, I'm also interested if anyone has any informative or telling experiences of how the demanding and competitive design of legal education and employment has affected them.

TL;DR: Is a biglaw legal career sustainable if you don't make partner? Are there exit options that don't involve significant paycuts or risk? Help a 0L out and tell me about your experiences.

[retaking23]

+1, I too am interested in what happens, employment-wise, to the droves of associates who do not make partner. Are they usually kicked out? If they leave on their own, where to?

[kalvano]

You guys realize there are easily a billion and a half threads on this, right? The general career track of a Biglaw associate is perhaps the most well-documented thing on TLS aside from the benefits of retaking the LSAT.

[rad lulz]

/

[sighsigh]

You guys realize there are easily a billion and a half threads on this, right? The general career track of a Biglaw associate is perhaps the most well-documented thing on TLS aside from the benefits of retaking the LSAT.

Are you kidding me? No it isn't.

Yes, there may be a billion threads on it, but there is hardly any substantive info in any of them. All you'll find is just a 0L echo chamber and the limited musings of a few very junior biglaw associates.

That's not to say TLS is completely worthless on this matter, but I remember trying to do research about this subject a few years ago and more or less striking out here. I found the best option was to do a thorough search of AutoAdmit. It isn't the most pleasant place to browse for info, but that forum does have quite a few senior biglaw associates who discuss topics like exit options from time to time.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Bump this question intrigues me as well

[84651846190]

It's a knife fight. Bring your best knife.

[84651846190]

You guys realize there are easily a billion and a half threads on this, right? The general career track of a Biglaw associate is perhaps the most well-documented thing on TLS aside from the benefits of retaking the LSAT.

Are you kidding me? No it isn't.

Yes, there may be a billion threads on it, but there is hardly any substantive info in any of them. All you'll find is just a 0L echo chamber and the limited musings of a few very junior biglaw associates.

That's not to say TLS is completely worthless on this matter, but I remember trying to do research about this subject a few years ago and more or less striking out here. I found the best option was to do a thorough search of AutoAdmit. It isn't the most pleasant place to browse for info, but that forum does have quite a few senior biglaw associates who discuss topics like exit options from time to time.

Look, dickhead, the experience of any given associate will have absolutely ZERO relevance to your career. Even assuming you're in the exact same practice area, there are so many random twists and turns that happen during a biglaw career that it's completely useless to formulate any kind of expectation for how your career will turn out based on some random guy's experiences, as portray on the Internet.

[kalvano]

You guys realize there are easily a billion and a half threads on this, right? The general career track of a Biglaw associate is perhaps the most well-documented thing on TLS aside from the benefits of retaking the LSAT.

Are you kidding me? No it isn't.

Yes, there may be a billion threads on it, but there is hardly any substantive info in any of them. All you'll find is just a 0L echo chamber and the limited musings of a few very junior biglaw associates.

That's not to say TLS is completely worthless on this matter, but I remember trying to do research about this subject a few years ago and more or less striking out here. I found the best option was to do a thorough search of AutoAdmit. It isn't the most pleasant place to browse for info, but that forum does have quite a few senior biglaw associates who discuss topics like exit options from time to time.

Look, dickhead, the experience of any given associate will have absolutely ZERO relevance to your career. Even assuming you're in the exact same practice area as one of the biglaw associates who post on this board, there are so many random twists and turns that happen during a biglaw career that it's completely useless to formulate any kind of expectations for how your career will turn out based on some random guy's experiences, as portray on the Internet.

Also, most of the threads on here discuss exit options and possible outcomes. A quick search of TLS will bring up probably 300 relevant threads, all within the past couple years.

[Abbie Doobie]

I'm currently a 0L studying for the LSAT and applying to Law School next cycle. I have done a lot of research on legal practices, biglaw, PI, government work, legal academia, and law school itself. And the more I find out the more risky, for lack of a better word, attending law school becomes. I wanted to ask law students and graduates if you ever get the sentiment that you are in one really big rat race?

By this, I mean we study hard, as undergraduates, in order to get into a good law school. Then, we are graded on a curve against our peers in law school. Assuming we succeed in law school and biglaw employment (as is the goal of many of us coming in), we work in an environment that necessitates the firing of a significant portion of the incoming associate class (not all of us can make partner) after 4-7 years. What then? We either take a paycut (government work, in house counsel) or dabble in other risky endeavors (switch industries, start your own firm, lateral).

I guess I'm rehashing a lot of the research I have been exposed to on TLS, and through other sources. While I might just be looking for confirmation, I'm also interested if anyone has any informative or telling experiences of how the demanding and competitive design of legal education and employment has affected them.

TL;DR: Is a biglaw legal career sustainable if you don't make partner? Are there exit options that don't involve significant paycuts or risk? Help a 0L out and tell me about your experiences.

This is, essentially, the progression of almost any career. No one really gets to stay in the same job for more than a few years anymore. That whole deal was a boomer thing. You either excel and keep climbing up the food chain (maybe get lucky enough to move into one of the fewer and fewer management positions available or move into a higher value-added position) or you get replaced by someone who can do your job for cheaper.

[1Lin2015]

To the early posters: I have done my research and I have read many of those threads. As such, I know what the exit options are. Its just hard to comprehend that most/all of the exit options involve a paycut (going in house, government work, consulting, some business work). Alternatively, seeking a salary comparable to a 4th year associate involves significant risk and capital (starting a firm or business, moving to another, smaller firm with the hope of doing something differently and making partner).

I agree with most of what you're saying, Abbie. I think the law firm track is a little unique though in that for the vast majority of people (except for those who make partner), the average 10-year after graduation salary is far below your average 5-year salary. For many people, your 10-year salary can even be below your first-year associate salary. Simply put, you can't always be an associate. Moreover, if you don't make partner (equity or non-equity) 6 years down the road in biglaw, you can't return to being a first year at another firm. This is in contrast to the base salary that practicing doctors, engineers, investment bankers (not sure about that third one) can always expect.

It just seems odd that many people weigh the cost of attending law school against biglaw, when that track is not sustainable for most people.

[sighsigh]

Here's the 2014 Robert Half salary survey for law firm associates and in-house lawyers. http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 2518,d.b2I (from http://www.roberthalf.com/salary-guides) No idea on how accurate it is.

[1Lin2015]

That's interesting sighsigh, thanks for sharing. It seems to indicate that in house salaries are higher from what I've gathered thus far, making transitioning in house a more viable exit option than I had anticipated.

[kalvano]

Think of Biglaw this way: someone offers to pay you $160,000 plus bonus for doing work and for the privilege of randomly and without notice coming up and repeatedly pummeling you in the face and body. For a while, it seems like a good deal, because what's a few bruises in exchange for paying off loans quickly and making good money? But then, once the loan balance dwindles and you've been repeatedly kicked and punched at random for a few years, someone comes along and says "hey, I'll pay you $120,000 a year to do something similar to what you've been doing, but without being randomly pummeled." At this point, your body is broken and sore from being repeatedly kicked and beaten, and you can't get up in the morning without pain. Suddenly, less money seems perfectly fine with you.

That's why people are willing to take a pay cut to go in-house or do other things. It's not always about making the most money.

[Otunga]

Think of Biglaw this way: someone offers to pay you $160,000 plus bonus for doing work and for the privilege of randomly and without notice coming up and repeatedly pummeling you in the face and body. For a while, it seems like a good deal, because what's a few bruises in exchange for paying off loans quickly and making good money? But then, once the loan balance dwindles and you've been repeatedly kicked and punched at random for a few years, someone comes along and says "hey, I'll pay you $120,000 a year to do something similar to what you've been doing, but without being randomly pummeled." At this point, your body is broken and sore from being repeatedly kicked and beaten, and you can't get up in the morning without pain. Suddenly, less money seems perfectly fine with you.

That's why people are willing to take a pay cut to go in-house or do other things. It's not always about making the most money.

Awesome post!

[retaking23]

Think of Biglaw this way: someone offers to pay you $160,000 plus bonus for doing work and for the privilege of randomly and without notice coming up and repeatedly pummeling you in the face and body. For a while, it seems like a good deal, because what's a few bruises in exchange for paying off loans quickly and making good money? But then, once the loan balance dwindles and you've been repeatedly kicked and punched at random for a few years, someone comes along and says "hey, I'll pay you $120,000 a year to do something similar to what you've been doing, but without being randomly pummeled." At this point, your body is broken and sore from being repeatedly kicked and beaten, and you can't get up in the morning without pain. Suddenly, less money seems perfectly fine with you.

That's why people are willing to take a pay cut to go in-house or do other things. It's not always about making the most money.

All of a sudden biglaw doesn't sound so bad if the exit opportunities generally improve quality of life. What concerns me is that these opportunities may not be as sure fire a thing as biglaw (assuming, of course, median grades or higher at t14 or something similar that usually all but guarantees nyc biglaw).

But, after researching this on my own, I've come to the conclusion that the Internet has more negative stuff on biglaw and its exit options than I think is warranted. And, from what I can gauge, most of this stuff is coming from people who thought they could tame biglaw and make partner without really understanding what kind of grind it entails.

Also, it apparently helps if you are resilient when it comes to getting punched and kicked in the face by partners and senior associates.

Old stone building over McMansion any day bitches.

[guano]

you ever get the sentiment that you are in one really big rat race?

NYC is one big rat race, and it's one you can never win

[Nomo]

Yes. You are entering a rat race. At least in the sense that the competition will continue to get more fierce at each level. There will be more work and more pressure at each level. Nothing will get easier.

Maybe 30 years ago law school was harder and had more pressure than practice. That's changed. In part because nobody fails out of law school and in part because the market just became so fierce.

The only way to avoid rat races in life that I know of are to find a way to be more talented than those around you. This could mean moving to a less educated town or working in a field where you have an advantage. It probably won't mean becoming a lawyer.

[sighsigh]

But, after researching this on my own, I've come to the conclusion that the Internet has more negative stuff on biglaw and its exit options than I think is warranted. And, from what I can gauge, most of this stuff is coming from people who thought they could tame biglaw and make partner without really understanding what kind of grind it entails.

Yeah, this is basically the conclusion I came to as well. I think a portion of the negativity also comes from those who were shell-shocked during the 2008 meltdown. When people talk about exit ops in general, the atmosphere is usually negative. But when people talk about specific anecdotes, things look significantly more positive (and the salary surveys [e.g. the Robert Half one I posted] seem to look bright).

Of course, it could all be wishful thinking on my part. I don't know... I guess it blows my mind thinking that after all the immense striving, stress, time invested, and risk, all that's waiting for you at the end of the rainbow is 0 net worth and - if you're lucky - 100k.

This is just my point of view as a detached but interested outside observer... I'll be staying the hell out of the US myself.

[84651846190]

But, after researching this on my own, I've come to the conclusion that the Internet has more negative stuff on biglaw and its exit options than I think is warranted. And, from what I can gauge, most of this stuff is coming from people who thought they could tame biglaw and make partner without really understanding what kind of grind it entails.

Yeah, this is basically the conclusion I came to as well. I think a portion of the negativity also comes from those who were shell-shocked during the 2008 meltdown. When people talk about exit ops in general, the atmosphere is usually negative. But when people talk about specific anecdotes, things look significantly more positive (and the salary surveys [e.g. the Robert Half one I posted] seem to look bright).

Of course, it could all be wishful thinking on my part. I don't know... I guess it blows my mind thinking that after all the immense striving, stress, time invested, and risk, all that's waiting for you at the end of the rainbow is 0 net worth and - if you're lucky - 100k.

This is just my point of view as a detached but interested outside observer... I'll be staying the hell out of the US myself.

It's a rat race. I don't know why you think it's "negative" for us to say that. It's just objective reality. The practice of law is not like the practice of medicine, at least not in the US. Doctors can do whatever the fuck they want, for the most part, and still have tons of patients clamoring to give them money (usually via their insurance companies). That's decidedly NOT the case in law. The competition for business at any level in law is almost unimaginable for someone like you. (I'm talking about people who will actually PAY you to give them legal services. There are, of course, a shitload of people who will let you work for them for free.)

The ABA (run by greedy Boomer law professors) has sold us down the river. I wish they'd take care of their own like the AMA takes care of doctors.

[Mal Reynolds]

I found the best option was to do a thorough search of AutoAdmit.

LOL

[thesealocust]

My friends that left biglaw literally work 9 to 5 at hedge funds, or 9 to 5 in the federal government, or other awesome things.

What you have to realize about the legal profession is that biglaw refuges are very well trained and very pain tolerant, so a ton of cool jobs just hire them instead of law school grads.

It doesn't mean everyone lands on their feet and it doesn't mean your career will be handed to you on a platter, but biglaw attrition != associates getting taken out back and shot.

[sparty99]

(yawn) at the 0L who offered this question.