How is Criminal Law different? Forum

[whereskyle]

As opposed to the biglaw path. Truth be told, I'm thinking that success in the criminal law path may require some of the same qualifications that success in PI seems to require (demonstrated interest, litigation skills). Also, I'm wondering about job placement and firm selection. Are firms/orgs at OCI looking for criminal lawyers, or is this a non-OCI path?

[Otunga]

I'm interested in this well. PD jobs do appear to require similar things as other PI jobs, like demonstrated and sustained interest, and trial skills. But private defense seems to be either aligned with "shitlaw" firms in small communities or white collar defense.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It's generally a non-OCI path. Some big firms that come to OCI may have a white collar criminal defense practice group (or maybe whatever group would defend against something like SEC prosecution?), but I think don't think it's incredibly common (biglaw people should correct me on this though). Most private criminal defense firms are small/local and not interested in recruiting through OCI, though they might advertise on symplicity throughout the year. They may share some qualities with shitlaw in that if they're doing a lot of appointments, volume may be a big part of the business plan, but I don't think they're quite the same as shitlaw in that criminal work is just different. (But work conditions/pay may also be similar; I don't know of a lot of junior people starting out this way, it's often someone who has state/federal criminal experience who goes out in their own.)

PD's offices generally hire either through direct mail or the Equal Justice Works job fair rather than OCI. (DA offices also, except I think not so much at EJW?)

And yes, in hiring it generally requires the same kind of qualifications as PI work (I lump PD/DA in with PI work, personally. Private criminal defense is a little different, although I think experience/litigation skills are still key).

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

This is absolutely a non-OCI path. I can't think of a single firm that did on campus interviewing at any law school I know of that was actually there to pick up a criminal lawyer. Big firms might have some small criminal defense practice, maybe, but those attorneys are very senior and were seasoned litigators when they were hired. The path would be, public defender/DA, USAO/Fed Pub Defender, jump in with a criminal law firm or mid/big firm with criminal law practice.

Most firms that do criminal law are between 1-20 lawyers. Probably 98% of criminal law firms… So yeah definitely non OCI.

Do all the mock/moot stuff and most importantly decide to be an unpaid intern in a local PD or DA office. Just show interest and you can get the job. It's unpaid, for fucks sake. Shoot for entry level county court gig when you graduate, or new hire at crime defense shop where you can get good training, not just do the paperwork. Best of luck.

[whereskyle]

Does anyone think it is stupid to pursue these options for someone expecting 60k of debt at time of graduation?

[Nova]

Does anyone think it is stupid to pursue these options for someone expecting 60k of debt at time of graduation?

No, that's reasonable.

[whereskyle]

This is absolutely a non-OCI path. I can't think of a single firm that did on campus interviewing at any law school I know of that was actually there to pick up a criminal lawyer. Big firms might have some small criminal defense practice, maybe, but those attorneys are very senior and were seasoned litigators when they were hired. The path would be, public defender/DA, USAO/Fed Pub Defender, jump in with a criminal law firm or mid/big firm with criminal law practice.

Most firms that do criminal law are between 1-20 lawyers. Probably 98% of criminal law firms… So yeah definitely non OCI.

Do all the mock/moot stuff and most importantly decide to be an unpaid intern in a local PD or DA office. Just show interest and you can get the job. It's unpaid, for fucks sake. Shoot for entry level county court gig when you graduate, or new hire at crime defense shop where you can get good training, not just do the paperwork. Best of luck.

Thanks for the insights and for the well wishes.

[Nelson]

criminal defense jobs really only exist in significant numbers at the extremes. You have public defenders/DAs who get paid directly by the government. They hire new lawyers, but the jobs are fiercely competitive. Private criminal defense is pretty much nonexistent as an entry level option. Then you have white collar criminal defense, which is a large biglaw practice, but requires good grades, top school, etc. just like any other biglaw job. It's not like you've come up with some magical alternate path to legal employment.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Criminal defense jobs really only exist in significant numbers at the extremes. You have public defenders/DAs who get paid directly by the government. They hire new lawyers, but the jobs are fiercely competitive. Private criminal defense is pretty much nonexistent as an entry level option. Then you have white collar criminal defense, which is a large biglaw practice, but requires good grades, top school, etc. just like any other biglaw job. It's not like you've come up with some magical alternate path to legal employment.

Not to mention there is a ton of luck involved, and you have to be geographically flexible. Also, you have to have interned or know someone inside or they just throw your resume away. This is true even if you went to Harvard and were on law review. The local TTT dudes that usually run these offices don't give a shit.

[Otunga]

Suppose for 1L year I were to exhibit interest in crim defense while at the same time exhibiting interest in biglaw for OCI. Would it be right to say that biglaw wouldn't give a shit about me showing interest in crim defense, but PD people would care a lot about me showing interest in biglaw? Obviously if you aren't hellbent on a PD job heading to LS, you want to keep certain options accessible. If it turns out you strike out at OCI, you still have 2L and 3L to do crim defense clinics, take the relevant coursework and whatever, but perhaps PD offices would hold it against an applicant to ever have shown an engagement with biglaw practice.

[deadpanic]

Criminal defense jobs really only exist in significant numbers at the extremes. You have public defenders/DAs who get paid directly by the government. They hire new lawyers, but the jobs are fiercely competitive. Private criminal defense is pretty much nonexistent as an entry level option. Then you have white collar criminal defense, which is a large biglaw practice, but requires good grades, top school, etc. just like any other biglaw job. It's not like you've come up with some magical alternate path to legal employment.

Not to mention there is a ton of luck involved, and you have to be geographically flexible. Also, you have to have interned or know someone inside or they just throw your resume away. This is true even if you went to Harvard and were on law review. The local TTT dudes that usually run these offices don't give a shit.

Yeah, it takes an incredible amount of luck and good timing. You may be gunning for an ADA gig and have all the right credentials, including interning there for awhile, and they simply can't hire you because of funds. A lot don't hire or even think about hiring you until after you have passed the bar, which is another timing issue.

Basically, I would never bank on getting a job as a prosecutor or a PD unless you have a written offer 3L year. You can do all the right things to maximize your chances of getting hired and still not make the cut. A ton of people are scrapping for these jobs and there are just not many openings.

[Otunga]

Criminal defense jobs really only exist in significant numbers at the extremes. You have public defenders/DAs who get paid directly by the government. They hire new lawyers, but the jobs are fiercely competitive. Private criminal defense is pretty much nonexistent as an entry level option. Then you have white collar criminal defense, which is a large biglaw practice, but requires good grades, top school, etc. just like any other biglaw job. It's not like you've come up with some magical alternate path to legal employment.

Not to mention there is a ton of luck involved, and you have to be geographically flexible. Also, you have to have interned or know someone inside or they just throw your resume away. This is true even if you went to Harvard and were on law review. The local TTT dudes that usually run these offices don't give a shit.

Yeah, it takes an incredible amount of luck and good timing. You may be gunning for an ADA gig and have all the right credentials, including interning there for awhile, and they simply can't hire you because of funds. A lot don't hire or even think about hiring you until after you have passed the bar, which is another timing issue.

Basically, I would never bank on getting a job as a prosecutor or a PD unless you have a written offer 3L year. You can do all the right things to maximize your chances of getting hired and still not make the cut. A ton of people are scrapping for these jobs and there are just not many openings.

I heard a similar story when I was deliberating about grad school in the humanities. You can do everything right, have all the credentials and connections, but if there's one element that doesn't come together for you, due to internal funding or whatever else, you're not getting the tenured position.

[whereskyle]

Criminal defense jobs really only exist in significant numbers at the extremes. You have public defenders/DAs who get paid directly by the government. They hire new lawyers, but the jobs are fiercely competitive. Private criminal defense is pretty much nonexistent as an entry level option. Then you have white collar criminal defense, which is a large biglaw practice, but requires good grades, top school, etc. just like any other biglaw job. It's not like you've come up with some magical alternate path to legal employment.

I know that this is anecdotal, but I know personally of only 2 people who went straight into criminal defense right out of LS. Both were post crash. One went to Duke and one went to a TTT (Southwestern). The person from Duke went to a private firm with which s/he had summered, and the other did what I think epitomizes the small law fear that we propagate on TLS. S/he rents an office from an established attorney and takes cases that established attorney doesn't want/can't fit into attorney's schedule. S/he is looking at a quarter million $ of debt, and she is happy as a clam. S/he literally loves the job. I think this comes from this person's being satisfied with the role in society that s/he now plays. Feel free to tear this apart. I know it's an anecdote, but why not post something different, right?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I heard a similar story when I was deliberating about grad school in the humanities. You can do everything right, have all the credentials and connections, but if there's one element that doesn't come together for you, due to internal funding or whatever else, you're not getting the tenured position.

Criminal law is tough, but it's really not as bad as getting a tenure-track academic position in the humanities. But I say that just because the only fields I can think of that are harder to get than a tenure-track academic gig in the humanities are things like NFL player or professional opera singer. I'm certainly not saying that it's easy or anything.

[Otunga]

I heard a similar story when I was deliberating about grad school in the humanities. You can do everything right, have all the credentials and connections, but if there's one element that doesn't come together for you, due to internal funding or whatever else, you're not getting the tenured position.

Criminal law is tough, but it's really not as bad as getting a tenure-track academic position in the humanities. But I say that just because the only fields I can think of that are harder to get than a tenure-track academic gig in the humanities are things like NFL player or professional opera singer. I'm certainly not saying that it's easy or anything.

Once professors told me only a minor portion of the class at an elite program attains a tenured job, it ultimately turned me against pursuing it. And so a large amount of students at elite programs are not getting any positions even though they put in 6-10 years of investment. But yes, I understand your point.