Minnesota Law 1L taking questions Forum

[minnbills]

These threads were usually a big help for me, so if anyone has any questions about life here at UMN, law school in general or anything else related to the school ask away.

Nova, Life, and 3riv if you guys want to join in feel free. There is also the MinnesotaLegalMarket thread which is great.

[cahwc12]

Honestly, how do you like it there? I've been looking more into Minn lately and it seems nice. Do you find the weather/atmosphere/surrounding area to be particularly good or bad? How about your 1L class? I'm from down south and won't have a chance to visit Minn.

Granted you've only been in classes for a month or so, do you know anything about the actual employment prospects from the law school? Do you feel confident you'll be able to land a job? Are you attending on any sort of scholarship?

[Br3v]

What's law school like? What you thought it would be like?

[minnbills]

Honestly, how do you like it there? I've been looking more into Minn lately and it seems nice. Do you find the weather/atmosphere/surrounding area to be particularly good or bad? How about your 1L class? I'm from down south and won't have a chance to visit Minn.

Granted you've only been in classes for a month or so, do you know anything about the actual employment prospects from the law school? Do you feel confident you'll be able to land a job? Are you attending on any sort of scholarship?

I really like it. I'm from MN and went to the U for undergrad so it was already home to me before I started law school. Everyone at the school makes a conscious effort not to be outwardly competitive, and the faculty/administration are very friendly and receptive. Overall I feel like the school makes a big effort to make 1Ls feel welcome.

MN has pretty rough winters, though the twin cities and the southern part of the state in general don't get it as bad as the north. A typical winter's day here is probably 15-20 or so and sunny. There are really cold patches where it will get below zero, though. The U has an underground tunnel system that allows you to stay out of the weather for the most part. We do have awesome springs and falls though, but the summer can get really hot.

Minneapolis is a great place to live and I would recommend it to anyone. The U of M twin cities campus is subdivided into three campuses (it's a big university.) There is the main campus that straddles the Mississippi, divided into the east and west banks of the river. Then there is the St. Paul campus about 15 minutes east. The law school is on the west bank, and is probably the furthest northwest building of the university. It's sort of out there on its own, actually. The neighborhood itself is alright, there are some good bars and plenty of places to eat. Most students live either in uptown or dinkytown (which is the undergrad neighborhood.)

Everyone in my section gets along well, and I think that's the case with all the sections, though some are more social than others. I would strongly encourage you to visit a law school before you commit to it, though. You'll be spending a lot of time and may end up spending your life in the area, so it's worth it.

There are a bunch of southerners here, and they've survived so far . I do know a couple of 3Ls from the south who are heading back there to work.

I'm not quite sure how to characterize employment prospects. The most common thing I've heard is that if you devote time to finding a job and take the employment search seriously, you'll get something decent. Outside of the prestigious jobs like biglaw or certain clerkships grades become less important. There are people with poor grades who land good jobs because they searched well. I was just talking to a guy last night who is below median and landed a sweet job- one no one on this board would have thought within his reach given his grades.

Alternatively, there are people with great grades who are jobless for whatever reason. So my point is that you can't really boil it down to some kind of equation. Which, I think, most of us would be more comfortable with.

It's important for people to realize that this is a school that just doesn't have much reach into biglaw. Minneapolis has a few big firms and a lot of midsize and small firms, so there isn't much of a market for jobs starting in the 6 figures. Chicago, NY, etc. don't really need to recruit out here in a buyer's market.

I feel confident I'll get something, but we'll see if I'm singing the same tune in three years, I guess. I am on a scholarship, but it's kind of an unwritten rule here that we don't talk about it openly so if you want more info on that note feel free to PM me.

What's law school like? What you thought it would be like?

It's pretty much exactly like I thought it would be. Hanging around TLS for a couple of years will give you a pretty good impression of how the whole thing works.

It's a lot of work, but if you were only going to do the bare minimum it wouldn't be much more than undergrad. Law school is packed with overachievers which is why people make it out to be so much. The biggest difference is that the work is more engaging than what I did in undergrad.

[ThreeRivers]

Good idea Minn!

I'll preface my responses by stating that I have very little to offer outside of what Minn has just stated. I pretty much agree with everything he has wrote so far, but I guess hearing a slightly different perspective (from nowhere near the Midwest) may be helpful. I also apologize for the many spelling and / or grammar errors I'll probably have as I am too lazy to proofread.

Honestly, how do you like it there? I've been looking more into Minn lately and it seems nice. Do you find the weather/atmosphere/surrounding area to be particularly good or bad? How about your 1L class? I'm from down south and won't have a chance to visit Minn.

Granted you've only been in classes for a month or so, do you know anything about the actual employment prospects from the law school? Do you feel confident you'll be able to land a job? Are you attending on any sort of scholarship?

I find Minnesota to be a great place to live so far. I'm from Pittsburgh and it reminds me of Minneapolis tbh, so I guess I don't have much of an adjustment. They're both mid-sized cities that pride themselves on friendly people, lower-COL, and both seem to have a chip on their shoulder and believe they're diamond-in-the-rough type of cities. It’s not particularly glamorous, but both have a lot to do and you won't find very many snobby individuals.

To be completely honest though, I haven't gone exploring much. My life has consisted of- law school, library, bars, hanging over friends, maybe occasionally hitting up a cheaper restaurant. I did go to Target Field, which was nice but highly overrated imo. I can't really say I know much at all about the city tbh, but I do feel very comfortable here. I don't have a car so maybe that's why I haven't experience much of Minneapolis, but I'm guessing even those with cars really don't either... maybe over the course of three years I'll be able to answer that better.

I actually really like my 1L class. Everyone has pre-conceived notions of a typical law student, but for the most part I don't see it at all. My section is really friendly, helpful to each other (so far), and I genuinely like the people here. It’s kind of weird since I've been here only a month, but there's a group of people I already consider my friends. I guess that's not that uncommon because you're constantly around the same people / have more interactions with them than you would most people you've know for a long time. There are obviously a few people I haven't clicked with as well as others, but I can't say there is anyone I really dislike or have a major problem with. So far, I'm happy here

I will say the rumor of law school that I heard that is very much true is it is very much like high school. Cliques form fast, you're around the same people 24/7, and rumors / gossip spread like wildfire.

The weather has been fine for me so far, it’s slowly turning into nice fall weather. I'm not from a warm environment (although it is warmer than MN), but I'd guess I can't relate to you being from the South. So far my classmates from the South appear to enjoy the Twin Cities, but they do bundle up a little more.

The only item I disagree with minnbills on is visiting. I kind of think its pointless. I recognize some people from ASW, but haven't really even talked to any of them. I did introduce myself to someone who stated "I know, we talked for awhile during ASW)... so I guess that was kind of embarrassing because I couldn't recall him at all lol. Tbh, most schools give the exact same presentation and I really don't feel you get much of a sense of what law school is like. Sitting in on some random class that you don't understand what's going on doesn't give you a view of what law school is like either imo. Maybe if you explore the city some it would be more meaningful, but I'm not sure what you could really discover in a day or two that would be representative. I will say that the law building is not very aesthetically pleasing, so I guess that can be a negative if that is important to you (it isn't to me at all). Disregard this opinion if you have a significant other or children that will be moving with you. That obviously makes the environment you will be living in much more important for a variety of reasons. I'd also recommend coming up here to search for housing rather than just doing it online. I almost just did it online and would have ended up in a dump if I had.

I feel like I know nothing about employment chances since coming here that I didn't research online. We currently can't even talk to CSO or search for employment because of ABA regulations. I really haven't spoken to many 2L's or 3L's about how they feel on this matter. Just based on "feel," I agree with minnbills. The current economy means not many are walking away with dream jobs, but I also feel the UMN-brand is very well respected in Minnesota and gives you an advantage over the other law schools here. I think one should be able to find something legal after school here, but I really am just speculating. Not sure how I'll do in the job search, but the curve is a little bit in the back of my mind. Everyone appears to be intelligent, hard-working, and used to achieving academically. It’s obvious not all of us will be able to be at the top of our class.

I'll also pass on the scholarship question, but I guess you can PM me if you want.

[ThreeRivers]

What's law school like? What you thought it would be like?

See the novel I wrote above, but I guess I'll add that it is very manageable so far. A lot of work, but one can definitely have a life for the first half of the semester. Once I start combining all my reading with preparing for exams though I think it will be really hectic

[TheThriller]

Being from Not-Minnesota, are you at all worried about the portability of the UMN degree or is your attention to stay and practice in Minnesota?

[ThreeRivers]

Being from Not-Minnesota, are you at all worried about the portability of the UMN degree or is your attention to stay and practice in Minnesota?

I spoke to a couple of lawyers from Pittsburgh who told me they would take a born-and-raised Pittsburgh kid who just went to school at UMN over a Pitt student. This wasn't unanimous, but was one of the main reasons I ended up attending UMN.

I can picture myself being completely happy in the Twin-Cities too though. Idk which place I'd rather live right now, and my main concern is I've heard where I do my 1L summer internship will signal to employers where I want to work long-term.. and I'm not sure right now. My guess is I'll look for employment in twin cities.

If where you live and / or want to work has a semi-comparable school though I'd recommend that school.

[procrastinator]

crosspost from 2015 forum...

I'm going to be a visiting student at UMN this spring and was wondering if you have any recommendations for housing. Just looking for a one-bedroom place, undecided on whether proximity or price is more important. It'll be me and the SO, who is actually from the Twin Cities (but hasn't lived there in a couple years). We're down in Florida until December so physically looking around isn't much of an option. Specific places or general areas would be great!

[minnbills]

crosspost from 2015 forum...

I'm going to be a visiting student at UMN this spring and was wondering if you have any recommendations for housing. Just looking for a one-bedroom place, undecided on whether proximity or price is more important. It'll be me and the SO, who is actually from the Twin Cities (but hasn't lived there in a couple years). We're down in Florida until December so physically looking around isn't much of an option. Specific places or general areas would be great!

I'd strongly recommend South Minneapolis (particularly uptown/Lake Calhoun) and West St. Paul (near Macalester/St. Thomas.) Neither area is home to much large commercial type housing so I can't give a specific recommendation.

Dinkytown, which is north of the U of M, is popular too, but it's a mostly undergrad neighborhood, it's packed with large apartment buildings though. I'd avoid Marcy Holmes. I've heard bad things about Grandmarc Seven corners as well (which is right next to the law school.)

[ThreeRivers]

All I can say is don't do GrandMarc.. Its right by the law school and seems so convenient, but I think the majority of their business is just out of town 1L's who don't know any better. I hear horrible things

Other than that, Idk... I lucked out.. I'm in dinkytown and its heavily an undergrad area, but for some odd reason (I don't even know why).. my apartment building is insanely quiet. I have never really heard my neighbors once. I think some people don’t have the same experience in Dinkytown

In general, Uptown seems to be the most talked about area.. but people live everywhere. Isn't really 1 area that houses the majority of students

[procrastinator]

Thanks guys. I like uptown. But I also like the idea of selling my car and walking/biking/mass transit-ing to school (and yes, I say this with full knowledge of Minnesota winters. I'm not a Floridian.). Is it easy to park at school?

[bags716]

Thanks guys. I like uptown. But I also like the idea of selling my car and walking/biking/mass transit-ing to school (and yes, I say this with full knowledge of Minnesota winters. I'm not a Floridian.). Is it easy to park at school?

Parking is relatively easy but also kind of expensive. I live in Uptown and I either bike or take public transit to school. I don't have a car and it's never been a problem for me. As long as it's above freezing, biking is an easy way to get to school. When the winter comes, there are express buses that run from Uptown and go straight to the law school. The University offers a discounted bus pass that makes it even easier. While the buses are warm, expect to be cold at the bus stop.

[skaddenbound]

I feel like I know nothing about employment chances since coming here that I didn't research online. We currently can't even talk to CSO or search for employment because of ABA regulations. I really haven't spoken to many 2L's or 3L's about how they feel on this matter. Just based on "feel," I agree with minnbills. The current economy means not many are walking away with dream jobs, but I also feel the UMN-brand is very well respected in Minnesota and gives you an advantage over the other law schools here. I think one should be able to find something legal after school here, but I really am just speculating. Not sure how I'll do in the job search, but the curve is a little bit in the back of my mind. Everyone appears to be intelligent, hard-working, and used to achieving academically. It’s obvious not all of us will be able to be at the top of our class.

In fact, 24 law schools bankrolled jobs for at least 10% of their graduating class in 2010, a FindLaw analysis of the data shows. The Top 10 schools that hired the greatest proportion of their own graduates were:

1. The City University of New York School of Law, which funded 19.0% of their own graduates' post-law school jobs;
2. University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law, 17.5%;
3. University of San Francisco School of Law, 16.8%;
4. Yeshiva University's Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, 15.4%;
5. Fordham University School of Law, 14.9%;
6. University of Notre Dame Law School, 14.5%;
7. University of Minnesota Law School, 14.1%;
8. Temple University Beasley School of Law, 13.9%;
9. University of California, Hastings College of the Law, 13.8%; and
10. Florida Coastal School of Law, 13.6%.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/greedy_associa ... uates.html

Also this:

Still, the school’s web site seems to assure prospective students that it will all be worth it. The “Career Facts and Statistics” page has the figure “98.8%” in emboldened in large print at the very top. This represents the average percentage of Minnesota students employed nine months after graduation over the past five years (the average for the class of 2010 was 98.9%). And the page informs viewers that the “average salary” of 2010 graduates was more than $88,000, and more than $109,000 among those graduates in private practice.

The problem, from a practical point of view, is that this web page needs to be read not like a report of facts and statistics issued by a prestigious institution of higher learning, but like a credit card agreement disclosure statement. In other words, you have to read the footnotes and the fine print.

If you do, and if you happen to already be a sophisticated reader of the kinds of “facts and statistics” reported by law school Career Services Offices, you’ll notice that that these numbers are, to use the technical academic phrase for the methodological techniques deployed to collect them, a pile of crap. The 98.9% employment figure for the Class of 2010 includes part-time work, temporary work, and non-legal work (and indeed part-time, temporary, non-legal work). How many of the class's 284 graduates are in these categories? It’s impossible to tell.

The “average salary” numbers are even more preposterous, given that they’re based on the “approximately one-third” [!] of the class’s graduates for whom the school managed to gather salary information. What jobs does this subset of graduates have? Again, it’s impossible to tell.

But it’s quite possible to guess. Note that only 34 of the 284 graduates (11.97%) in the 2010 class got jobs with AM Law 250 firms. My guess is that the CSO recorded approximately 34 salaries in that particular cohort. Meanwhile, 35 2010 grads were “employed” by firms of two to ten attorneys. How many salaries were recorded within that group? My guess would be “very few.” How many of those 35 “jobs” were temporary contract positions, or law clerk gigs, or eat what you kill arrangements (in which a new lawyer is given office space in return for a percentage cut of whatever business he or she can manage to actually bill and collect)?

What percentage of this class of 284 with a 99% employment rate and the advertised “average” salary of $88,000 is making anything remotely close to that “average? “ Does even half the class have a real legal job today? What’s the real median salary for the University of Minnesota Law School class of 2010? I would love to hear from more members of this particular 99%. For what it’s worth (which is a lot more than what the pack of not-quite lies on the school’s web page are worth) my unemployed correspondent tells me she “knows some people in the top 25% of the 2010 class who are [as of January 3, 2012!] having trouble finding work.”

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... e-now.html

[ThreeRivers]

Yea, I think everyone on TLS knows that LST or other similar sources is how you should evaluate a school.

That being said, as I posted in the applicant thread, UMN looks pretty good compared to their peers... until 2011. Hoping 2011 was an outlier

That being said those last 2 paragraphs were pure speculation, a bit much tbh

According to LST, that 2010 class had:

72.9% of that class in bar required, long-term jobs, not counting those who went solo.-

[minnbills]

Is Daniel Pi making a comeback?


School-funded jobs serve a dual purpose. Obviously, they help out the school by boosting employment stats. But they also serve to help out students who a) need to pass the bar before they can get a job and b) need experience before they can compete. Biglaw is pretty much the only employer (other than clerkships I guess) that isn't going to want experience before you walk in the door.

Anyways, threerivers is right. Look at LST (particularly the ABA and NALP report sheets) and look at the stats on UMN's website. The school is pretty straightforward about employment. I also encourage people to contact the Career Center directly. And of course, talk to recent graduates.

[minnbills]

72.9% of that class in bar required, long-term jobs, not counting those who went solo.-

People also end up in good non legal jobs. My contracts prof was just telling us about one of his students who landed a "contract specialist" job with a corporation paying 100k.

The big problem with business job stats is there is little information to go by. But people should keep it in mind.

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

I'll be starting next Fall (deferred) and was wondering how your professors are.

Are there any that you find difficult? I heard Okediji can be very difficult to have a dialogue with, for example. (not that you have to name them...) I guess I am basically asking for a run-down of how you feel about them as part of your success or failure, for lack of a better explanation. Also, are their office hours actually kept? Do you have a professor now that you'd will avoid in 2L and 3L?

Thanks.

[ThreeRivers]

I'll be starting next Fall (deferred) and was wondering how your professors are.

Are there any that you find difficult? I heard Okediji can be very difficult to have a dialogue with, for example. (not that you have to name them...) I guess I am basically asking for a run-down of how you feel about them as part of your success or failure, for lack of a better explanation. Also, are their office hours actually kept? Do you have a professor now that you'd will avoid in 2L and 3L?

Thanks.

I really think its pretty transparent to a lot of people who I am on this site, so I have to be careful... but

My opinion of my professors thus far:

1 is AMAZING.. might be the best teacher I've had in all of my education
1 is really good, definitely above average.
1 I'd say is slightly below average of normal professors I've had
And there's 1 who I would is pretty atrocious / a disaster

I also like both my legal writing instructors (the attorney and the 3L are both really good)

I haven't gone to office hours yet (probably will soon, but I've heard they're all avaliable when they say they will be).

[minnbills]

I heard Okediji is . . . .rough.

I have Matheson for contracts and Carpenter for Conlaw. Both are fantastic. Really, they're awesome. I feel like I have a strong grasp of the material because of their abilities as educators.

My Torts and Civ Pro profs are both good as well, but are new so I think they are still figuring out how best to run their classes. I would still recommend either, though.

All my profs are accessible, some more than others. But I haven't had a problem contacting any of them if I need something or for office hours. They all keep office hours regularly as far as I know.

My legal writing instructors are very good as well.

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

Cool. Thanks for the reply, guys. I guess if I have any trouble understanding a particular prof I'll just ask some 2/3Ls whom had success with said prof for tips?

AFA living goes, do you guys know anything about the Stevens Square area just south of Loring Park? I have a family friend who lived in the area a loooonnngggg time ago and said it was close enough to the law school (about 2 miles) and rec'd it to me.

[Nova]

I'll be starting next Fall (deferred) and was wondering how your professors are.

Are there any that you find difficult? I heard Okediji can be very difficult to have a dialogue with, for example. (not that you have to name them...) I guess I am basically asking for a run-down of how you feel about them as part of your success or failure, for lack of a better explanation. Also, are their office hours actually kept? Do you have a professor now that you'd will avoid in 2L and 3L?

Thanks.

wont name names, but Im sure some of these descriptions will give them away...

My torts prof is my favorite, even though I HATE how he cold calls. I like to read ahead, but never do for that class because he is so particular about details. He will also keep asking you questions until he stumps you. And if its obvious you dont know what you are talking about, he will just keep stumping you over and over and over. No mercy. But he is seriously a great prof. Very straightforward, no surprises. Structurally, I know exactly what to expect every class. Exam is one crazy hypo. Sue everyone.

Con law is chill. Not much cold calling. Its basically story time, so I just sit back and listen. The prof gives great reviews that sum everything up every so often. They really put everything into perspective. The reviews also help a lot with outlining. I can tell hes really smart and loves being a professor.

My K prof is a really nice and helpful lady, but is sometimes all over the place. By the end of class the chalk board has been filled and erased several times. We joke about hiding the chalk from her. Its hard to figure out whats going on if you ever zone out. K is more quality than quantity. We've covered the least amount of cases in her class so far(maybe 40?). She changes the fact pattern hypothetically a lot, so the class can analyze how slight differences could completely change the outcome.

Civ Pro is my only class without a traditional final exam. 4 tests worth 60%, a group project worth about 25%, and a paper worth 15%. It kind of sucks having to deal with it through out the semester, but in the end, it will be nice to only have to study for 3 traditional finals. The prof is a quite the character. Most students love him. He makes very dry subject matter tolerable. Its very easy to do impressions of him. "Well...". *leans hard on wall*

They are all very accessible and open to helping out side of class.

I would take a class with any of them again.

[Nova]

Cool. Thanks for the reply, guys. I guess if I have any trouble understanding a particular prof I'll just ask some 2/3Ls whom had success with said prof for tips?

Yeah thats a good strategy. I actually spammed the TLS UMN C/O 2014 with PMs, and got a lot of helpful feedback about my specific profs, and how to handle 1L in general.

[ignatiusr]

Can anyone at UMN tell me a little about Prof. Fionnuala Ni Aolain? She's visiting at HLS this year and may or may not be one of my professors next semester, depending on how I rank her on my preference list. I'd like to know more about her (personality/style/workload) before I proceed.

[timeandspace11]

This has been great a help so far. I have recently considered University of Minnesota and plan on sending in my application next week.

My question was already touched on but i was hoping someone may be able to go into more detail. I wont have a car during law school and I was hoping someone could describe the ease of getting around without one.

Also are there good employment prospects outside of Minnesota?