Can CCN students strikeout and miss out on a legal career? Forum

[180asBreath]

Can a HYSCCN student not get a job in their first year and then miss out on future jobs, as their JD has "expired"?

[dailygrind]

Moved, per this post http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=170600.

[Detrox]

A. As a technical point, most legal jobs are really acquired at the start of your second year (via your 2L summer job which is expected to lead to a full time offer after law school), and a handful of students pick up jobs during 3L as well if they're lucky/improve enough.

B. The general consensus I've seen from this board and anecdotally is yes, you can strike out even at the top schools. At least for CCN, being in the bottom 10-30% can be rough for the job search, even when keeping your aims low. I would find it useful if someone who has been in that situation commented on how they proceeded, because although a lot of posters tend to be like "Oh if you strike out enjoy finding a new career/shitlaw for 40k and same hours etc etc." It would be nice to have some first hand experience details.

[wiscohopeful]

Yes, will someone who was in the bottom 10% of their class identify themselves and tell us how shitty a road it has been since graduating without a job?

[The Gentleman]

I've heard anecdotal evidence of HLS people striking out at EIW, but I haven't heard anything about people being unable to find any legal job.

[180asBreath]

Moved, per this post http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=170600.

I didn't want advice from current law students, but okay.

[dailygrind]

Moved, per this post http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=170600.

I didn't want advice from current law students, but okay.

Nonetheless, that's probably who you're going to be getting it from. The employment forum's pretty much being concentrated on employment advice for current law students.

So that I'm being somewhat helpful in a substantive way:

A. As a technical point, most legal jobs are really acquired at the start of your second year (via your 2L summer job which is expected to lead to a full time offer after law school), and a handful of students pick up jobs during 3L as well if they're lucky/improve enough.

B. The general consensus I've seen from this board and anecdotally is yes, you can strike out even at the top schools. At least for CCN, being in the bottom 10-30% can be rough for the job search, even when keeping your aims low. I would find it useful if someone who has been in that situation commented on how they proceeded, because although a lot of posters tend to be like "Oh if you strike out enjoy finding a new career/shitlaw for 40k and same hours etc etc." It would be nice to have some first hand experience details.

I agree with this for the most part, with the obvious caveat that it applies mostly to big law. A) is pretty spot on, except that at HYSCCN you are probably able to consider thinking about a 1L summer internship if you have the grades and some sort of connections, or grades, ties to a secondary market, and luck. B) is pretty spot on too, except that I think that getting a big law job is a function of a lot more than just grades, and the strikeouts are probably not at all limited to people at the bottom of the class. After striking out, there is probably a route to proceed that involves applying for smaller law firms, but I have no idea what it is.

[Strange]

Since we're talking about this, how much does work experience play a factor? And minority status (being Hispanic, not necessarily MA/PR, or being black)?

[keg411]

Since we're talking about this, how much does work experience play a factor? And minority status (being Hispanic, not necessarily MA/PR, or being black)?

Work experience can play a factor, but it also depends on the type of WE. If you have prestigious WE, it will likely help. A five-year office job in a non-law field that isn't prestigious isn't going to give you much of a boost.

Can't help in terms of the minority question.

[180asBreath]

I guess my real question is this:

While I think nothing of TTT students who owe 150k and are working at Starbucks (as I feel that they should have done their research before going to law school), I am curious about students from HYSCCN: can they strike out, end up in a non-legal career, with no hope of ever entering the legal market?

[TaipeiMort]

I can't speak for HYS and Columbia, but at Chicago last year somewhere between 80-90% of people ended up with firm jobs that participated in OCI: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=163264.

I think you are more likely to fall through the cracks at Columbia, Harvard, and NYU than Yale, Chicago, and Stanford.

Students who get no offered are sometimes in trouble at Chicago, but I know a couple who just hustled a District Court Clerkship and then got Biglaw again.

Also, I disagree with the "bottom 15%" of the class thing. I think those that strike out are usually two of 1) Bad Personality, or 2) Bad Market Choice, 3) Bad Grades.

I think that URM status helps you a lot after you hit the margain (around median), but if you don't get there it helps little. Employers want smart/accomplished people first, and race second.

Work experience can carry you far if you can tie it to the type of law the firm is practicing. It is all about selling what you did, unless you did Military, Goldman, or Mckinsey/Bain/BCG, or Science/Engineering if IP, which helps you without selling it.

[dailygrind]

I think that URM status helps you a lot after you hit the margain (around median), but if you don't get there it helps little. Employers want smart/accomplished people first, and race second.

There was some commentary about this earlier, and I think the best argument I saw was that minority status helps the most not because of a boost, but because of the increased access to interviews that it grants. There's the Vault Diversity Fair, SEMJF, DuPont Minority job fair, and a bunch of other opportunities for you to get interviews that simply aren't on the table if you're a white male.

[Detrox]

Yes, will someone who was in the bottom 10% of their class identify themselves and tell us how shitty a road it has been since graduating without a job?

Can post anonymously obviously. Also doesn't need to be a "oh my life is so horrible etc." post either. In fact my suspicion is that these people do just fine, and that people who aren't in their position fear the extra effort/unknown so much that they rant about the dangers of attending law school to 0Ls on this board.

Additionally, what Dailygrind said is true as well. My post was primarily about biglaw, as that is the general obsession with people on these boards seeking legal career advice. Options such as small law, non-prestigious government work, and rather grueling PI options exist as well, which in connection with LRAP and savings surely make up some of the options for those who strike out. But for any of these things it is extremely hard to generalize and there will likely be a wave of posts about how these options are just myths (see any post about International Law).

Summing up what most people have said to answer the original question, if you're capable enough to get the GPA and LSAT and any other factors that can get you into HYSCCN, you'll generally be capable enough to find decent employment even with bad grades a large setback. Sure there will be a few scattered exceptions where people, through no fault of their own, end up in shitty situations, but I don't think this is should be a big enough fear to influence your decision to attend a T6 school unless you have additional reason to believe that you'll be bottom 10%. The advice on the boards is repeatedly given that you should never assume you will end up in the top 10% without any experience in law school to aid that belief, and I figure it applies decently to projecting yourself into the bottom 10% as well.

[TaipeiMort]

Yes, will someone who was in the bottom 10% of their class identify themselves and tell us how shitty a road it has been since graduating without a job?

Can post anonymously obviously. Also doesn't need to be a "oh my life is so horrible etc." post either. In fact my suspicion is that these people do just fine, and that people who aren't in their position fear the extra effort/unknown so much that they rant about the dangers of attending law school to 0Ls on this board.

Additionally, what Dailygrind said is true as well. My post was primarily about biglaw, as that is the general obsession with people on these boards seeking legal career advice. Options such as small law, non-prestigious government work, and rather grueling PI options exist as well, which in connection with LRAP and savings surely make up some of the options for those who strike out. But for any of these things it is extremely hard to generalize and there will likely be a wave of posts about how these options are just myths (see any post about International Law).

Summing up what most people have said to answer the original question, if you're capable enough to get the GPA and LSAT and any other factors that can get you into HYSCCN, you'll generally be capable enough to find decent employment even with bad grades a large setback. Sure there will be a few scattered exceptions where people, through no fault of their own, end up in shitty situations, but I don't think this is should be a big enough fear to influence your decision to attend a T6 school unless you have additional reason to believe that you'll be bottom 10%. The advice on the boards is repeatedly given that you should never assume you will end up in the top 10% without any experience in law school to aid that belief, and I figure it applies decently to projecting yourself into the bottom 10% as well.

I would say that in my experience, which is totally anecdotal and only based on several of acquaintances, those who do worst are those that either 1) never had the requisite skill sets to succeed but were admitted anyways (very few), and 2) those that had significant distractions (eg. divorce, illness) or were super unwilling to work (more).

[zanda]

CCN 3L here- being middle third is no gimme, and being "almost top third" doesn't seem much better than being "almost median."

[BaiAilian2013]

Also, I disagree with the "bottom 15%" of the class thing. I think those that strike out are usually two of 1) Bad Personality, or 2) Bad Market Choice, 3) Bad Grades.

Anecdotally, this seems to be true at N too. I know someone in the bottom 10% that got biglaw with no major rescue factors (no WE/diversity/IP etc.) through being a normal person and looking at the right markets. But being a total, irredeemable dick, or bidding like a moron, or just plain coming off as a moron in conversation, can sink you.

[180asBreath]

CCN 3L here- being middle third is no gimme, and being "almost top third" doesn't seem much better than being "almost median."

Do you think there are any 3L's who will have to do doc review/may not ever get to work as an attorney?

[boaltrising3l]

It's not that people cannot work as an attorney after graduating, it's that the options available involve working 60 hours+ a week to pull a 40k salary. While this is an option for me (even as a top 20% student at a T10), I'd rather try go into a field where if I can actually earn enough to support myself.

[NinerFan]

I know anecdotally of people at both NYU and CLS that graduated without jobs, so yes, it can happen.

[c3pO4]

I know anecdotally of people at both NYU and CLS that graduated without jobs, so yes, it can happen.

Same. In all cases I've seen it happen, it's due to uninformed bidding combined with a failure to mass mail early enough along with the kiss of death of not knowing how to interview and not practicing seriously. The problem with going to a school like CLS or NYU in this situation is that there's no sense of urgency, unlike in a T50 for example, so students who are starting to strike out don't do what they need to do to avoid it. It's a harsh and unfair world out there.

[NinerFan]

I know anecdotally of people at both NYU and CLS that graduated without jobs, so yes, it can happen.

Same. In all cases I've seen it happen, it's due to uninformed bidding combined with a failure to mass mail early enough along with the kiss of death of not knowing how to interview and not practicing seriously. The problem with going to a school like CLS or NYU in this situation is that there's no sense of urgency, unlike in a T50 for example, so students who are starting to strike out don't do what they need to do to avoid it. It's a harsh and unfair world out there.

I don't know if it's just uninformed bidding. I think sometimes it's having very specific interests in fields that are difficult to get into or not hiring and not wanting to sacrifice the desire to do XYZ thing just to be employed. The way the market seems right now, firms can afford to be pickier, so bad interviewing and lower grades makes it much more difficult than it would have been pre-recession.

And part of it is probably due to lower grades, although I don't know their grades so I can't be certain. They're not graduating with honors or anything, though.

[TaipeiMort]

I know anecdotally of people at both NYU and CLS that graduated without jobs, so yes, it can happen.

Same. In all cases I've seen it happen, it's due to uninformed bidding combined with a failure to mass mail early enough along with the kiss of death of not knowing how to interview and not practicing seriously. The problem with going to a school like CLS or NYU in this situation is that there's no sense of urgency, unlike in a T50 for example, so students who are starting to strike out don't do what they need to do to avoid it. It's a harsh and unfair world out there.

I don't know if it's just uninformed bidding. I think sometimes it's having very specific interests in fields that are difficult to get into or not hiring and not wanting to sacrifice the desire to do XYZ thing just to be employed. The way the market seems right now, firms can afford to be pickier, so bad interviewing and lower grades makes it much more difficult than it would have been pre-recession.

And part of it is probably due to lower grades, although I don't know their grades so I can't be certain. They're not graduating with honors or anything, though.

In my opinion, you guys are saying the same thing. I think those who hope to do X, when the market is requesting Y and don't adjust are stupidly bidding. No rational person would think that no job is better than a job which initially makes you do licensing instead of real estate and eventually would let you do real estate, and pays 160k.

I don't think bad grades matter on their own from the 3 smaller schools. They may bury you at Harvard or Columbia though.

[cattleprod]

CCN 3L here- being middle third is no gimme, and being "almost top third" doesn't seem much better than being "almost median."

Do you think there are any 3L's who will have to do doc review/may not ever get to work as an attorney?

There are plenty of T14 grads from the class of 2009 and 2010 that are doing doc review right now. There are even T6 grads (not as many though) in the same boat. They simply had no other choice. Once you miss that legal job in the first 12 months after graduation, there is not much else for you. And once you have doc review on your resume, you are done. It is just like any actor/actress in Hollywood. Once you do porn to make some quick money to pay the rent, going mainstream is not really an option. You have a shelf life measured in months and you are going to be spit out of the bottom of the porn industry. That is doc review.

That is why employment at 9 months is so critical. Once the next class is entering the job market, you can forget about it. There is too much fresh meat and the prior class has the stink of failure already attached to that 12 month hole in your resume.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

CCN 3L here- being middle third is no gimme, and being "almost top third" doesn't seem much better than being "almost median."

Do you think there are any 3L's who will have to do doc review/may not ever get to work as an attorney?

There are plenty of T14 grads from the class of 2009 and 2010 that are doing doc review right now. There are even T6 grads (not as many though) in the same boat. They simply had no other choice. Once you miss that legal job in the first 12 months after graduation, there is not much else for you. And once you have doc review on your resume, you are done. It is just like any actor/actress in Hollywood. Once you do porn to make some quick money to pay the rent, going mainstream is not really an option. You have a shelf life measured in months and you are going to be spit out of the bottom of the porn industry. That is doc review.

That is why employment at 9 months is so critical. Once the next class is entering the job market, you can forget about it. There is too much fresh meat and the prior class has the stink of failure already attached to that 12 month hole in your resume.

Awesome.

[cattleprod]

And once you have doc review on your resume, you are done.
It is just like any actor/actress in Hollywood. Once you do porn to make some quick money to pay the rent, going mainstream is not really an option.
You have a shelf life measured in months and you are going to be spit out of the bottom of the porn industry. That is doc review.

Awesome.

It is a 100% true. Doc review is the kiss of death on your resume. If you have to do it in order to pay the bills, you are better off leaving it off your resume entirely. Even shitlaw won't touch you after that.