Denver Sturm 3L Taking Questions Forum

[lawyerboy24]

Hello.

I believe a DU Sturm 1L was taking questions back in Jan-Mar. I just wanted to post this for anyone who-- having now decided to go to DU-- has more questions about what to expect in the Fall. (And even if you're still on the fence... ask me anyway!)

Obviously, I am about to be a 3L. I'm a day student. I am working for the Colorado Attorney General this summer and will be in the school's Civil Litigation Clinic this Fall. Not 100% sure yet, but looking at being a DA or going into employment law after I graduate.

I live in a Denver suburb called Aurora, though most students tend to live nearer the school. The law school has its own parking garage, though the yearly pass is somewhat expensive. That said, I am happy I paid for it and I think even those who live a little closer are happy to have it when the weather turns nasty. Also, having your car nearby helps with storage; you will find yourself with a mountain of books, papers, and computer equipment and not all of it fits into the school lockers (which you can rent for $20).

I love Denver and have no plans go live or work anywhere else. Sturm is a great school and its namesake, a very rich banker named Donald Sturm, is still alive and determined to spend whatever it takes to get Denver Law into the US News top-50, at the very least. The school continues to hire new professors and accept fewer students, of a higher caliber. The bar passage rate is now above the state average.

So that's some of the basics. Please pipe up if you have any questions!

[jacksonshirley76]

Thanks so much for posting! I am 99% sure I'll be going to DU-Sturm. What's your impression been of the professors? How many adjunct do they use versus full-time professors? Are there any I should stay away from (though I guess I don't have my choice my 1L year, right)?

[IamAskier]

I guess I'll ask the obvious question. How did OCI and the post-grad job hunt go for the graduating 3Ls this year?

[CinnamonRose]

Thanks for this:
I too am interested in your take on the professors but also the fellow students.
How strong is the DU alum network for externships?
what are the 2 best and 2 worst things about the school?
Older non-trad student - how will that impact fitting in with other students?

I will be in Denver this weekend looking for housing - any ideas or if you with to meet up?

[lawyerboy24]

IAmAskier: I don't know what the results of OCI were. I know that the job prospects for the 3Ls weren't fantastic, but then again, that's the same across all law schools. I do know several people who got summer jobs, as did I. The percentage of those OCI summer jobs that pay went down, I think. Just as the number of externships/internships went up. Lots of interest in free help due to the economy. One upside is the Career Center's renewed focus on helping students get judicial clerkships. That program had fallen by the wayside for some reason, but now they have a person solely dedicated to helping students get those plum positions.

jacksonshirley/cinnamonrose: Lot of great professors. Very few stinkers. I've been lucky/resourceful and haven't had any stinkers. Lucky my 1L year when the registrar chooses for you, and resourceful there on out by talking to other students and perusing the faculty evaluations. Fellow students are a grab-bag but very nice overall. People come from across the US, and foreign countries. Every section winds up with one or two oddballs, but I haven't heard of anything terrible. I think law school self-selects for driven, interesting people and I've had a great time getting to know my colleagues!

The DU alum network is strong. Half the lawyers are graduates from DU. The Career Center hosts various events and mixers and there are many Inns of Court that accept new student members every year (another great way to meet lawyers/judges). Because of the strong network, the Externship Office is able to offer a lot of opportunities both during the summer and school year. I got jobs with a DA and a judge after my 1L year because of them.

2 best: faculty and students
2 worst: price-tag and registrar (though I must admit I've never personally had a problem with the registrar's office, but many of my friends have)

CinnamonRose: I too am an older, non-trad student and had no problem fitting in. Yes, the majority of people here are either right out of undergrad, or only one or two years removed. But most everybody is serious about law school, and serious about having fun, and quickly realize that this isn't undergrad and if they're going to be an effective advocate they need to engage with, and enjoy, people from all walks of life and all age groups. Sorry I didn't see your post sooner or I would've been happy to meet up. Hope your trip went well!

[CinnamonRose]

Hi - Thanks for your response.

It seems to me that the networking opportunities and the hands on learning make DU unique not just as a comparison to CU but to many other law schools.
What tips or resources would help someone make the best of that and what - being a 3L - are you finding with your and your fellow classmates for job options on graduation?
How much is in Denver vs other places?
How much depends on specialties?

Thanks

[lawyerboy24]

Hi - Thanks for your response.

It seems to me that the networking opportunities and the hands on learning make DU unique not just as a comparison to CU but to many other law schools.
What tips or resources would help someone make the best of that and what - being a 3L - are you finding with your and your fellow classmates for job options on graduation?
How much is in Denver vs other places?
How much depends on specialties?

Thanks

Making the best of resources/networking--
Externships, internships (or whatever they're called these days) and keeping an eye on the job listings from the Career Center are the best ways to start compiling real life experience. That's what employers want to see-- that you've actually done something outside of law school. Additionally, it is at these jobs that you will begin to create your web of contacts. I'd hazard a guess that in this state it's probably, at most, only 2 degrees of separation between one lawyer and another.

I am finding this summer, more so than ever before, that word-of-mouth makes a world of difference. A lawyer where I'm working noticed that someone who he'd just interviewed went to DU. He asked me if I knew the guy. I said I'd seen him around but didn't know him. It was clear that had I said something good or something bad, it could very well have affected which direction they might go in terms of giving the guy a 2nd interview. Pretty wild stuff!

Denver is the legal epicenter for the state. That said-- and to address your question about specialties-- if you go into environmental or water law, you could find yourself in other parts of the state. Similarly, if you want to join the public defender's office, you will most likely wind up being posted (initially) in a smaller, more rural area.

[cherryblossom08]

Well everything is finalized. I am excited and VERY nervous to start this fall at DU. Ive been out of school for quite a while and it seems that Im heading in the lions den.

1) Is there anything that you wished you would have know before starting your 1L that you dont mind sharing? (I know that there are other boards that are meant specifically for this, but is there anything out there DU specific?)

2) Do you have any experience with Law Review there? Are the write-on competitions pretty fierce?

3) Is there anyway to save money books wise, or does everyone just purchase at the book store? I hear that the e-books are becoming a big thing (especially since the iPad came out), would it be easier to just get the e-books? Can you print from the e-books?

4) Im also kind of worried about the end of year exams. I haven't taken one in years (minus the LSAT, which was even a couple years ago). What did you find that worked for you?

5) Whats up with all the hype of supplements? Is that something only higher or lower ranked schools do? Do kids at DU use these things? Its just that it seems excessive.

6) What is a typical day for you? Do you have time to do much else? Or for that matter of fact, did you as a 1L have any extra time to do anything else or does it seem like everyone just studies 24/7 including weekends? Is it possible to treat it like an 8am-5pm job?

7) How are the libraries? I took a quick tour and the facilities were beautiful, however, are they pretty crammed around finals, or are they always full with students? What are the hours like?

What are the best places to get lunch? I dont really want to find myself eating with a bunch of undergrads, are the facilities pretty separated from one another?

9) Are you specializing in employment law? Did you participate in the certificate program?

Im sorry for all the incessant questions, its just that before I worry about jobs or anything else, I want to focus on how to approach the classes and the exams? Once again, I know that there are boards on here that address this issue specifically, however, I was wondering if there is any particular direction you can point me in that will be helpful at DU specifically? Its just that Im older than the average student and like I said, I haven't taken a college level exam in years (especially one that comes close to a law school exam). Once again, thank you for bearing with me. Im just a curious and have a lot of nightmares that Im gonna fail or just not have a clue of what is going on once I get there.

I appreciate you giving your time and advice. Congrads on the internship as well!

[Gatorbull84]

Thanks a lot for taking questions. Im moving to Denver from Tampa, FL and I am interested in Patent Law. I noticed that IP was not listed as a Speciality for Sturm Law students. I am curious about this and wondering about DU's IP program. Do you know of any students who concentrated on IP?

[lawyerboy24]

Cherryblossom: Don't worry about it too much. I was out of school for over 10 years before law school. You read. You re-read. You write. You re-write. Oh, and don't forget to think and re-think. That's essentially what law school is. To be honest, it ain't rocket science.

1) Is there anything that you wished you would have know before starting your 1L that you dont mind sharing? (I know that there are other boards that are meant specifically for this, but is there anything out there DU specific?)

No wishes. I researched it pretty thoroughly, about what the experience would be like. I TA'd for the legal writing program (Lawyering Process) last year and did find that many 1Ls weren't aware of the curve. So, if you didn't know, there's a curve. At DU it's a 3.0. Which is to say, the majority of students in every class will get a B. That concept can take some getting used to. Other than that, be prepared for the other curve: the significant learning curve of first semester (doesn't matter how old you are, everybody's in the same boat).

2) Do you have any experience with Law Review there? Are the write-on competitions pretty fierce?

I am on Law Review. The application happens at the end of the 1st year. It is rather intense. Typically, about 150 people download the application, but only 80-90 finish it. And approximately 30-35 are chosen. If you are interested in being on law review, there will be many info sessions about it, especially during the Spring semester. I am glad I am on it mostly for the friendships, the chance to meet some practitioners I wouldn't have otherwise, and the resume fodder.

3) Is there anyway to save money books wise, or does everyone just purchase at the book store? I hear that the e-books are becoming a big thing (especially since the iPad came out), would it be easier to just get the e-books? Can you print from the e-books?

I get my books mainly from Amazon (make sure you sign up for their Prime service as a student, once you get your student email!) and from the bookstore. Your biggest savings will be from ordering online. There is a used book deal that is run by the Student Bar Association, but I have never bought anything there, so I don't know what the quality is like. I'm sure the day is coming when law students will be able to annotate and highlight on an iPad, but that day is not yet here. Get the paper books and lots of 4-color pens and yellow highlighters (or your color of choice).

4) Im also kind of worried about the end of year exams. I haven't taken one in years (minus the LSAT, which was even a couple years ago). What did you find that worked for you?

Yes, the first semester of finals is daunting. But get your outline together, go through study problems if your prof offers any, or old exams, go thru them with friends, or use questions from the E&Es (Examples and Explanations series). Also, get used to IRAC. Issue, Rule, Analysis, Conclusion. It's the basic form for answering any test question.

5) Whats up with all the hype of supplements? Is that something only higher or lower ranked schools do? Do kids at DU use these things? Its just that it seems excessive.

I mentioned the E&Es. I have liked several of them, particularly for Civil Procedure (the Glannon book). Sometimes your profs will recommend ones. Or will even list them as optional for the course on their book list. Just ask around. Or look at some in the bookstore (they have all of them, all brands). Everyone learns differently, so it's hard to say if they are good or bad, or which ones are good or bad. You'll have to see what works for you and what works for that particular class (for example: my Crim Pro prof was very clear that he did not want to see answers that incorporated concepts from outside sources).

6) What is a typical day for you? Do you have time to do much else? Or for that matter of fact, did you as a 1L have any extra time to do anything else or does it seem like everyone just studies 24/7 including weekends? Is it possible to treat it like an 8am-5pm job?

It's exactly like a 9-5 job. I mean, like I said, everyone's different. Some people will be forever in the library. I found that I still had time to see the occasional movie, or hang out with friends. But other people struggled. Depending on where you're coming from, it can take a shorter or longer amount of time to learn how to read cases. Fortunately, for once, my English major came to the rescue. The only part of the LSAT that's worth a damn is the reading comprehension part.

7) How are the libraries? I took a quick tour and the facilities were beautiful, however, are they pretty crammed around finals, or are they always full with students? What are the hours like?

I'm not a library guy. I do like the study rooms, and yes, they can get booked early during finals. And the library gets crammed, too at that time. The library is fine. It has nice big tables with lamps and places to plug in your computer and jack into the internet (though there's WiFi too). It's not like you'll need access to the physical books. Everything is done on Lexis or Westlaw now. As for hours, I believe it's open until midnight.

What are the best places to get lunch? I dont really want to find myself eating with a bunch of undergrads, are the facilities pretty separated from one another?

DU is surrounded by various places to eat. I don't even know where the undergrad cafeteria is. We have a cafe in the forum of the law school. They have snacks and coffee and a sandwich/panini thing. Or you can walk across the street and hit Chipotle (the first one, in fact, the mothership as it were, though it is very tiny) or Subway, Bruegger's Bagles, Sbux, Noodles & Co is down the street, Tokyo Joe, and several local joints. Also, there are an unending series of lunchtime talks at the law school, M-Th, and they always have free food.

9) Are you specializing in employment law? Did you participate in the certificate program?

I am hoping to get the certificate. It's a new system, but basically you take 12 credits in one area, plus a "capstone" class and you get a notation on your transcript saying you completed the certificate program. As practicing employment law... we will see. As I understand it, you will pretty much wind up practicing the type of law of whoever hires you, given this market. But it's nice to point one's ship in a general direction and hope.

[lawyerboy24]

Thanks a lot for taking questions. Im moving to Denver from Tampa, FL and I am interested in Patent Law. I noticed that IP was not listed as a Speciality for Sturm Law students. I am curious about this and wondering about DU's IP program. Do you know of any students who concentrated on IP?

I don't know anyone doing Patent Law. Professors Moffat and Chao are IP teachers, and I do know that an IP survey class is offered (which I have heard is rather dry, but full disclosure: I'm not very scientifically oriented in the first place). It is not a specialty of the school, as far as I understand it.

[Aaron-j]

lb24- thanks for starting this thread- I've been accepted to DU-Sturm this fall and have a couple of questions for you.

I am also a "non-traditional" student- coming to law school as a second career after 20 years in policing (started young, so I am lucky to be able to try something new). Can you comment a bit about your experience at DU as an older student? From the limited info I have gathered from attending the open house and speaking with faculty when I sat in on a class in the spring, it seems like the school values students who are coming in with some experience beyond undergrad. But what is the dynamic like day-to-day in classes, etc.?

While I am good with computers, I am not a fast touch typist, so I plan to hand write my class notes and transcribe them into One Note later, though it isn't efficient. It seemed like the split among students in the class I observed was about 85/15% laptop notes vs handwritten. My thought is it will be more important to pay attention to the lecture/discussion than to be head-down on the keyboard. Any thoughts on either method?

You mentioned a professor who was clear they wanted no outside source information on their exams. Can you offer any other instructor pet peeves or other idiosyncracies to be aware of? Nothing worse than getting off on the wrong foot with an instructor without even trying.

Thanks for any info you can offer!

Aaron

[CanadianWolf]

Which first year classes, if any, are year long courses ?

[lawyerboy24]

lb24- thanks for starting this thread- I've been accepted to DU-Sturm this fall and have a couple of questions for you.

I am also a "non-traditional" student- coming to law school as a second career after 20 years in policing (started young, so I am lucky to be able to try something new). Can you comment a bit about your experience at DU as an older student? From the limited info I have gathered from attending the open house and speaking with faculty when I sat in on a class in the spring, it seems like the school values students who are coming in with some experience beyond undergrad. But what is the dynamic like day-to-day in classes, etc.?

While I am good with computers, I am not a fast touch typist, so I plan to hand write my class notes and transcribe them into One Note later, though it isn't efficient. It seemed like the split among students in the class I observed was about 85/15% laptop notes vs handwritten. My thought is it will be more important to pay attention to the lecture/discussion than to be head-down on the keyboard. Any thoughts on either method?

You mentioned a professor who was clear they wanted no outside source information on their exams. Can you offer any other instructor pet peeves or other idiosyncracies to be aware of? Nothing worse than getting off on the wrong foot with an instructor without even trying.

Thanks for any info you can offer!

Aaron

I had no problems fitting in. I'd say the average age is 26 or 27. But it varies. Many people have done something between undergrad and law school. Yes, there are a fair number of the "K-JD" set. I don't envy them not taking a break. I think those of us who've worked and had a life outside of school bring a lot to the table, both in terms of class participation, our thinking in general, and certainly when it comes time to apply for jobs/internships. I think a lot of employers like to see that an applicant has real-world experience. On the flipside... I didn't know how to do Powerpoint when I showed up, was generally worried about my ability to get back into the "studying" mindset, and it took me almost the full 1L year to realize nobody uses books any more, except for textbooks. (You will get a tour of the library at some point, but almost nobody uses the books there. Good or bad, that's just the way it is.)

I used OneNote all my 1L year. It was a nice way to keep track of everything. Then, the first semester of 2L year I did everything by hand, in notebooks, and found my notes were much more concise. You are correct... it can be easy to start transcribing everything you hear when you're on a computer (though if you don't type fast, perhaps you will escape that trap). When you take notes by hand, it can be a little frustrating keeping up sometimes, but then again you are predisposed to listen for the important nuggets and not just zone-out as you type, type, type.

My 2nd semester, 2L year, I went back to using the computer, but just used Word. My goal was to write my notes in outline format so as to save time when Finals came. It helped. But I don't know if that's something you can start out doing (that is: maintain a running outline when you still aren't sure what's important and what's not).

Most profs will let you know about their likes/dislikes. That one prof I mentioned was just saying that he didn't cover certain concepts or "vocab" that is sometimes covered in supplements, so warned us it was a waste of everyone's time to learn that stuff and write about it on his final.

I will tell you this-- the one thing all profs like is organization. They have to read so many pages of Finals essays, anything you can do to speed them through your writing will be rewarded. Many profs say this explicitly.

[lawyerboy24]

Which first year classes, if any, are year long courses ?

The only year-long course is the legal writing class, Lawyering Process (though it will technically be noted as Lawyering Process I and Lawyering Process II). Once upon a time-- before my time-- Civil Procedure and Con Law were a year but the trend was toward semester-long classes, so the second semesters of those classes are now called Advanced Civ Pro and Con Law II which you can take after 1L year if you so choose.

[Aaron-j]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Forgot to ask about the professional and peer mentoring programs. It seems like an easy decision to participate in both programs. Any thoughts on them? Have you been a mentor or mentee?

[lawyerboy24]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Forgot to ask about the professional and peer mentoring programs. It seems like an easy decision to participate in both programs. Any thoughts on them? Have you been a mentor or mentee?

Do both. Great way to start to get to know people in the community. Denver is, like, 3 degrees of separation. It's a big city... but it's also not. It's worth doing even if you wind up with someone who practices law in which you have no interest.

I was a mentee my 1L year and it helped to be able to speak with an upperclassman during the first week. We still keep in touch, he's a good guy. I passed it on last year by being a mentor to a 1L and I know she appreciated the little tidbits of advice I was able to pass along. And who knows, if you hit it off, your mentor might give you his or her outlines. At the very least, they can fill you in on what your profs will be like and, as time goes on, give you advice about what to take after 1L year.

[Aaron-j]

Ok, sounds good- I will be sure to get involved with those. Thanks again!

[RonPaulConservative]

Thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. Will be applying to law schools here this upcoming year and am very fascinated with the prospects of attending DU. Spent 7 years of my life in Colorado, 4 of which were in Denver. Love the city, the vibe, the recreations, the people, the weather and the social environment. My family is also very fond of the area. Would be an honor to attend DU or CU for that matter, although would prefer DU very much so. I have a few questions regarding prestige, scholarships and job oppurtunities. I know Denver is a tightly knit metropolitan area, with that being said does the DU degree carry significant weight when applying for jobs? Also how does DU do in terms of clerkships and the prestige of those clerkships compared to CU. Would one be at much of a disadvantage chosing DU over CU? Are the students who attend DU conscientious about the schools ranking? That same questions applies to employers as well. Also what is the vibe like at DU? Good oppurtunities for intern/externships? Study abroad oppurtunites and summer work oppurtunites? Any and all comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

[lawyerboy24]

Thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. Will be applying to law schools here this upcoming year and am very fascinated with the prospects of attending DU. Spent 7 years of my life in Colorado, 4 of which were in Denver. Love the city, the vibe, the recreations, the people, the weather and the social environment. My family is also very fond of the area. Would be an honor to attend DU or CU for that matter, although would prefer DU very much so. I have a few questions regarding prestige, scholarships and job oppurtunities. I know Denver is a tightly knit metropolitan area, with that being said does the DU degree carry significant weight when applying for jobs? Also how does DU do in terms of clerkships and the prestige of those clerkships compared to CU. Would one be at much of a disadvantage chosing DU over CU? Are the students who attend DU conscientious about the schools ranking? That same questions applies to employers as well. Also what is the vibe like at DU? Good oppurtunities for intern/externships? Study abroad oppurtunites and summer work oppurtunites? Any and all comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

If you want to practice in Denver (or Colorado in general) then it's a wash. CU being ranked higher, though, might give you a little more prestige for clerkships, or travel better to another state. But that's about all the advantage CU has over DU, imho. I got into both and ultimately chose DU because it was closer to the action, and DU made it cheaper for me to attend. CU gives little to no scholarship money. As for being aware of the rankings, yes, it's something that threads its way into conversations every year when US News & World Report comes out... but then it fades away again. I think there's a feeling that most of the professors are top-notch, there are innumerable opportunities for internships, and its not very hard to weave those practical experiences in with your classes (after 1L year) because most everything is within an easy light-rail trip of the school. This extends to summer work opportunities. The summer between my 1L and 2L year I did two part-time jobs-- one a paying job at a DA's office and another one an externship with a judge-- and it was a fantastic experience. The Externship Office can get a little overwhelmed from all the students wanting to utilize them, so my one piece of advice in that regard would be to familiarize yourself with their part of the website and go visit them in person. That's what I did and I received good advice and, ultimately, plenty of experience. I don't know about the study abroad experiences except I know plenty of them exist. One friend of mine spent a month at the Hague right when they captured Mladic, and she found that very interesting. Seems like a fair amount of people head to South America during breaks, too.

[RonPaulConservative]

Alright thanks for the advice. I would be really interested in getting a full ride to school and believe that could be obtainable. I'm tribe registered native american and plan on graduating with a 3.7-3.8 with a double major in philosophy and history. What schore on my lsat do you think ill have to get to be able to attract a full scholarship or significant amounts of money?

[CanadianWolf]

CU awards scholarships that primarily subsidize the first year of law school. A $40,000 scholarship from CU, for example, breaks down into $24,000 the first year and $8,000 scholarship per year for each of one's final two years. Judging by the postings on lawschoolnumbers.com, many receive scholarship offers at CU.

[lawyerboy24]

CU awards scholarships that primarily subsidize the first year of law school. A $40,000 scholarship from CU, for example, breaks down into $24,000 the first year and $8,000 scholarship per year for each of one's final two years. Judging by the postings on lawschoolnumbers.com, many receive scholarship offers at CU.

Cool. My info was only anecdotal, and is now almost 2 years old. Maybe CU picked up the pace after they got shellacked in the US News rankings (though, of course, they are still higher ranked than DU).

[RonPaulConservative]

The allure of attending a private law school is a dope city has romanticism about it for sure. I know personally from friends and family that everyone in the city regards DU with the highest respect. Does DU do well placing in clerkship and attractive government positions? Positions for instance with the Attorney general and handling legal issues on behalf of the state, not so much on the side of criminal litigation though.

[Gatorbull84]

Hey sorry to bother you again but I was wondering about working during law school. I know you cannot work during your first year but are able to work during your second and third year? And if so what is the average amount of hours students work