Northwestern 1L/2L/3L/Grads Taking Questions and Challenges Forum

[Micdiddy]

Handy-dandy GPA/class-rank break down, for after 1L:

4.00+ - top 3-5 people
3.85+ - top 10%
3.75+ - top 15%
3.65+ - top 25%
3.50+ - top 35%
3.30-3.40 - median
3.20 - 3.30 - slightly below median
3.00 - 3.20 - quite below median

This is very approximate, but it doesn't really matter because firms don't try to divine your exact class rank.

Nobody really knows what the bottom half of the curve looks like, because the curve is not symmetric.

this doesn't really make sense to me... if the median grade in a 1L class is a B-, shouldn't the median GPA be closer to a 2.7?

also, what gpa is a "you should just drop out now" gpa? asking for.... a friend

Good thing the median grade is a B+.

[idgaf37]

Handy-dandy GPA/class-rank break down, for after 1L:

4.00+ - top 3-5 people
3.85+ - top 10%
3.75+ - top 15%
3.65+ - top 25%
3.50+ - top 35%
3.30-3.40 - median
3.20 - 3.30 - slightly below median
3.00 - 3.20 - quite below median

This is very approximate, but it doesn't really matter because firms don't try to divine your exact class rank.

Nobody really knows what the bottom half of the curve looks like, because the curve is not symmetric.

this doesn't really make sense to me... if the median grade in a 1L class is a B-, shouldn't the median GPA be closer to a 2.7?

also, what gpa is a "you should just drop out now" gpa? asking for.... a friend

Good thing the median grade is a B+.

Well shit. Literally everyone lied to me then soooo... advice for a 1L with a 3.0?

[kcdc1]

Well shit. Literally everyone lied to me then soooo... advice for a 1L with a 3.0?

Pre-write your exams next semester like everyone else did? Gun for PI?

[bananasplit19]

soooo... advice for a 1L with a 3.0?

Do better in the spring? Shoot for an A- average (which is easier to do if you have an uncurved elective or two) for the spring, go into OCI with a presentable median-ish 3.3, and hammer your upward trend during interviews: tell 'em your spring GPA is the true indicator of your potential, that you figured out how to do law school, and that you overcame the initial challenge of adjusting to the arbitrary shitshow that is law school exams. A meh fall GPA isn't a death knell; if you learn from it, you can actually use it as a positive during OCI. HTH.

Source: had a mediocre fall GPA, then slept with Cliff did better in the spring, successfully used it as inspirational pandering during interviews

[cookiejar1]

You only have half of your 1L cumulative GPA. You can - and will - do better. You cannot make the same mistakes again. This will be tough but you have to go back and examine what you did wrong in your previous exams. You need to spend a lot of time doing this even though it's tough to revisit bad exams. You probably need to do something different and change around what obviously worked for you in the past (presumably your old strategy has failed you). Talk to professors and try to identify what tactical errors you made (not arguing in the alternative; too many conclusory statements; not identifying enough issues, etc.) and talk to a mentor about the strategical errors that you may have also made (have someone look over your outline, talk about your study habits, have someone look over your classnotes - are you focusing on the right thing? Are you preparing for exams in the right way?).

You have to - really have to - take a proactive approach and adapt to the law school game. These exams are very learnable. Worst thing you can do right now is make the same mistakes. You're not someone with "below-median" intelligence. Law school exams are a game and nothing more. Learn the rules and practice them!

[captainplanet]

You only have half of your 1L cumulative GPA. You can - and will - do better. You cannot make the same mistakes again. This will be tough but you have to go back and examine what you did wrong in your previous exams. You need to spend a lot of time doing this even though it's tough to revisit bad exams. You probably need to do something different and change around what obviously worked for you in the past (presumably your old strategy has failed you). Talk to professors and try to identify what tactical errors you made (not arguing in the alternative; too many conclusory statements; not identifying enough issues, etc.) and talk to a mentor about the strategical errors that you may have also made (have someone look over your outline, talk about your study habits, have someone look over your classnotes - are you focusing on the right thing? Are you preparing for exams in the right way?).

You have to - really have to - take a proactive approach and adapt to the law school game. These exams are very learnable. Worst thing you can do right now is make the same mistakes. You're not someone with "below-median" intelligence. Law school exams are a game and nothing more. Learn the rules and practice them!

I echo this and would also suggest asking a couple of your professors for permission to see an example of an exam that received an A grade (not an A+ because that's setting the bar really high and could be intimidating, just an A). You can compare your exam answer with the A exam and see what that student was doing that you were not. This is most helpful for a class where you felt like you knew the material more or less and it was more of an issue of exam writing. And definitely ask your professors to see copies of your exam and read the comments they wrote and talk to them about how you can do better. Or, if you feel intimidated talking to a professor, ask them for permission to go over your exam with a TA or with Susie Spies Roth (I'm not sure if permission is needed but there could be Honor Code issues with showing your exam answer to others if you don't have permission). Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more specifically about your situation and exam tips. Good luck this semester!

[peachielovesyou]

You only have half of your 1L cumulative GPA. You can - and will - do better. You cannot make the same mistakes again. This will be tough but you have to go back and examine what you did wrong in your previous exams. You need to spend a lot of time doing this even though it's tough to revisit bad exams. You probably need to do something different and change around what obviously worked for you in the past (presumably your old strategy has failed you). Talk to professors and try to identify what tactical errors you made (not arguing in the alternative; too many conclusory statements; not identifying enough issues, etc.) and talk to a mentor about the strategical errors that you may have also made (have someone look over your outline, talk about your study habits, have someone look over your classnotes - are you focusing on the right thing? Are you preparing for exams in the right way?).

You have to - really have to - take a proactive approach and adapt to the law school game. These exams are very learnable. Worst thing you can do right now is make the same mistakes. You're not someone with "below-median" intelligence. Law school exams are a game and nothing more. Learn the rules and practice them!

I echo this and would also suggest asking a couple of your professors for permission to see an example of an exam that received an A grade (not an A+ because that's setting the bar really high and could be intimidating, just an A). You can compare your exam answer with the A exam and see what that student was doing that you were not. This is most helpful for a class where you felt like you knew the material more or less and it was more of an issue of exam writing. And definitely ask your professors to see copies of your exam and read the comments they wrote and talk to them about how you can do better. Or, if you feel intimidated talking to a professor, ask them for permission to go over your exam with a TA or with Susie Spies Roth (I'm not sure if permission is needed but there could be Honor Code issues with showing your exam answer to others if you don't have permission). Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more specifically about your situation and exam tips. Good luck this semester!

As a note, 1L professors are particularly likely to sit down and talk to you about what to do better. Just reach out to them and ask if you can make an appointment to see your exam and speak to them about how to improve in the future (clarify in the email you're not looking for a grade change, but just looking to improve your exam-taking for the future, and they'll be exponentially more likely to respond positively). After 1L fall, I think all my professors proactively emailed our whole section offering this, but even if not, as long as it's clear that you're looking to improve your abilities, almost all professors would be willing to do so.

And 1L fall grades are by no means determinative of your law school grades. As all the others said before me, as long as you improve next semester, it can be a great talking point during OCI, and many firms would take the improvement into consideration.

[Micdiddy]

Both Above comments are good.
You should never feel initimitated going over a past exam with a prof. You pay them for this, they do this dozens of times after grades every year. Also, a large part of Susie's job second semester is going over exams with students. SET UP AN APPOINTMENT WITH HER NOW SHE GETS BOOKED FAST.
As everyone else has said, it's still perfectly doable to get a job at OCI. Though I usually tell people taking curved vs. uncurved second semester has marginal difference, this is one of the few cases I think you should definitely take uncurved classes. Less likely to get a B- or even B in uncurved classes.

[zugzwanger]

Both Above comments are good.
You should never feel initimitated going over a past exam with a prof. You pay them for this, they do this dozens of times after grades every year. Also, a large part of Susie's job second semester is going over exams with students. SET UP AN APPOINTMENT WITH HER NOW SHE GETS BOOKED FAST.
As everyone else has said, it's still perfectly doable to get a job at OCI. Though I usually tell people taking curved vs. uncurved second semester has marginal difference, this is one of the few cases I think you should definitely take uncurved classes. Less likely to get a B- or even B in uncurved classes.

I've had three professors thus far in uncurved classes tell the class they typically grade whereby lowest is usually B+ (maybe bottom third) and maybe just a couple Bs for those that really did nothing/showed no effort.

It's probably a marginal difference for those that are great at taking law school exams, but I would highly advise taking uncurved classes and not exposing yourself to any unnecessary risk.

[Cobretti]

Both Above comments are good.
You should never feel initimitated going over a past exam with a prof. You pay them for this, they do this dozens of times after grades every year. Also, a large part of Susie's job second semester is going over exams with students. SET UP AN APPOINTMENT WITH HER NOW SHE GETS BOOKED FAST.
As everyone else has said, it's still perfectly doable to get a job at OCI. Though I usually tell people taking curved vs. uncurved second semester has marginal difference, this is one of the few cases I think you should definitely take uncurved classes. Less likely to get a B- or even B in uncurved classes.

I've had three professors thus far in uncurved classes tell the class they typically grade whereby lowest is usually B+ (maybe bottom third) and maybe just a couple Bs for those that really did nothing/showed no effort.

It's probably a marginal difference for those that are great at taking law school exams, but I would highly advise taking uncurved classes and not exposing yourself to any unnecessary risk.

agreed

[Micdiddy]

Both Above comments are good.
You should never feel initimitated going over a past exam with a prof. You pay them for this, they do this dozens of times after grades every year. Also, a large part of Susie's job second semester is going over exams with students. SET UP AN APPOINTMENT WITH HER NOW SHE GETS BOOKED FAST.
As everyone else has said, it's still perfectly doable to get a job at OCI. Though I usually tell people taking curved vs. uncurved second semester has marginal difference, this is one of the few cases I think you should definitely take uncurved classes. Less likely to get a B- or even B in uncurved classes.

I've had three professors thus far in uncurved classes tell the class they typically grade whereby lowest is usually B+ (maybe bottom third) and maybe just a couple Bs for those that really did nothing/showed no effort.

It's probably a marginal difference for those that are great at taking law school exams, but I would highly advise taking uncurved classes and not exposing yourself to any unnecessary risk.

I'll just go ahead and backtrack because I don't really know the numbers and "marginal difference" might be an understatement. I've had a few profs tell me the difference is practically meaningless, but at the same time I know some profs that hand out As and A+s like candy in uncurved classes, and I can't fathom any prof handing out a B- (I'm sure it's happened, but that has to be rare, right?).
I do think the hype over uncurved classes is overblown and I think it is only very, very important for people in OPs situation. Also, I think people do better in classes they are interested in and I think 1Ls do better than 2Ls and 3Ls who don't care about grades (NOT like Civ Pro II), but I don't have raw numbers to back this up or anything so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

[crumpetsandtea]

The easiness of uncurved classes is totally dependent on the professor. Some professors give mostly As and some professors (cough D'Amato last year) will give out B+s and Bs for what seems like no reason. You have to know the class you're taking.

[d cooper]

.

[Flips88]

Any thoughts on Kleinfeld as a grader? (Not curved.)

i imagine he's a douche grader but I base that only on how much of a turd he was as a person for crim.

[ASCIIfly]

Anyone knows Len (law and social change) has any preference over essay or final exam?

[franklyscarlet]

Any thoughts on Kleinfeld as a grader? (Not curved.)

i imagine he's a douche grader but I base that only on how much of a turd he was as a person for crim.

no level of easy grading could make it worth sitting in a class with that man anyway.

[MT Cicero]

Any thoughts on Kleinfeld as a grader? (Not curved.)

i imagine he's a douche grader but I base that only on how much of a turd he was as a person for crim.

no level of easy grading could make it worth sitting in a class with that man anyway.

Damn, I'm second guessing myself now. I'm likely in the same class as d cooper, and he definitely seems a bit eccentric but not insufferable. Very little exposure thus far though having only gone to 2 classes.

[franklyscarlet]

Any thoughts on Kleinfeld as a grader? (Not curved.)

i imagine he's a douche grader but I base that only on how much of a turd he was as a person for crim.

no level of easy grading could make it worth sitting in a class with that man anyway.

Damn, I'm second guessing myself now. I'm likely in the same class as d cooper, and he definitely seems a bit eccentric but not insufferable. Very little exposure thus far though having only gone to 2 classes.

I know there are people who like him, so YMMV. he just makes my skin crawl.

[idgaf37]

Both Above comments are good.
You should never feel initimitated going over a past exam with a prof. You pay them for this, they do this dozens of times after grades every year. Also, a large part of Susie's job second semester is going over exams with students. SET UP AN APPOINTMENT WITH HER NOW SHE GETS BOOKED FAST.
As everyone else has said, it's still perfectly doable to get a job at OCI. Though I usually tell people taking curved vs. uncurved second semester has marginal difference, this is one of the few cases I think you should definitely take uncurved classes. Less likely to get a B- or even B in uncurved classes.

I've had three professors thus far in uncurved classes tell the class they typically grade whereby lowest is usually B+ (maybe bottom third) and maybe just a couple Bs for those that really did nothing/showed no effort.

It's probably a marginal difference for those that are great at taking law school exams, but I would highly advise taking uncurved classes and not exposing yourself to any unnecessary risk.

I'll just go ahead and backtrack because I don't really know the numbers and "marginal difference" might be an understatement. I've had a few profs tell me the difference is practically meaningless, but at the same time I know some profs that hand out As and A+s like candy in uncurved classes, and I can't fathom any prof handing out a B- (I'm sure it's happened, but that has to be rare, right?).
I do think the hype over uncurved classes is overblown and I think it is only very, very important for people in OPs situation. Also, I think people do better in classes they are interested in and I think 1Ls do better than 2Ls and 3Ls who don't care about grades (NOT like Civ Pro II), but I don't have raw numbers to back this up or anything so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

thank you to everyone who wrote back with advice! I so appreciative of the NU community that i didn't even realize was on TLS. I am going to take all of your advice to heart and do better next semester!

on the question of classes: does anyone have any go-to easy class suggestions? I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on labor law w/Jules Crystal. It looks like it will be uncurved but does he have a reputation as an easy grader?

[lemons]

on the question of classes: does anyone have any go-to easy class suggestions? I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on labor law w/Jules Crystal. It looks like it will be uncurved but does he have a reputation as an easy grader?

also curious about this class! from what i gather, there is no final exam, just a written assignment but still curious about the professor/grading

[star fox]

Does anyone have an outline for that same class? (Crystal Labor Law)

[d cooper]

Does anyone have an outline for that same class? (Crystal Labor Law)

Also interested.

[norkanite]

.

[lhanvt13]

had employment law on my schedule cuz it seemed interesting. did I make a bad decision? heard it's hard as balls

[lemons]

had employment law on my schedule cuz it seemed interesting. did I make a bad decision? heard it's hard as balls

is that with Provenzano? I haven't had the class but I had civ pro with her last semester and I adore her. She expects students to engage with the material and be able to discuss in class, so it probably won't be an easy class, but she is amazing and her exams are straightforward. i'm planning on taking whatever classes she teaches in the future, which goes to show how much i like her