UVA Law Students Taking Questions Forum

[sundance95]

The fact that you seemingly made a profile - or an alt - to complain about a staff member doesn't reflect well on you.

And yet he is 100% correct. There are numerous--numerous--anecdotes of Ruth Payne actually being counter-productive to UVA students' clerkship efforts, including discouraging individuals from applying to clerkships that they actually received. In another instance, she failed to simply talk to a federal judge alum at a law school event who had made overtures indicating that he wanted to start a pipeline. The judge was understandably confused and offended. I am not aware of a single member of the clerkship-competitive segment of the class that has a positive view of her. They feel they got clerkships despite her, not because of her.

These are the reasons that the law school should move on from her--not this unfortunate mistake. But as has been said, if this is the catalyst, then so be it. The major profs can continue to serve as the CoA/scotus pipelines, but we need a vague-add at that position for district judges and the like, not just someone who is good at spreadsheets.

[Yardbird]

So you can't just like, tell us what it is?

rising 2L here, but my guess would be the school immediately sent out an email saying not to disseminate what happened on the students' honor or something.

Can the school please fire Ruth Payne now? Not just for this, but for everything else.

I may be wrong about this, but Ruth Payne single handedly increased the amount of UVA students clerking, thereby increasing the value of everyone's degree somewhat. I doubt she'll get fired over this.

This is one of the more egregiously stupid statements I've ever seen posted on TLS.

1. What's your basis for such a statement? Do you know when she was hired? Do you know what UVA's clerkship numbers looked then?
2. Even if so, how do you know that Ruth Payne was responsible? Attending such a fine institution as UVA surely you are aware that correlation does NOT equal CAUSATION, right? There are a lot of other forces at work here, namely some absolutely fantastic professors.
3. Have you ever spoken with Ruth Payne? Worked with her on clerkship matters? If you had, I suspect the thought of even uttering the bolded statement would make your stomach turn.

Just because your personal experience was bad doesn't mean others didn't find her helpful. I'm not saying she's the best (I've heard stories of her discouraging people from applying to clerkship that they were competitive for). But the clerkship office didn't exist before she got here. Yes professors and the economy have something to do with it, but an increase in clerkships in one year by almost 30% can be attributed a lot to her. You're also on a forum that provides a lot of guidance on clerkship applications. The majority of applicants probably relied on her. Even small things like explaining the application procedure and timeline had helped students. Also, anecdotally, I'm sure career services tells some people not to waste bids on certain firms - they are honestly just trying to maximize our chances given what they know about us. To an extent that's the same with her, though sending out an extra application for a clerkship wouldn't really be all that difficult.

And yes, I have spoken to her a number of times about certain things, and she was helpful each time.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... kships.htm

[olive16]

Just because your personal experience was bad doesn't mean others didn't find her helpful. I'm not saying she's the best (I've heard stories of her discouraging people from applying to clerkship that they were competitive for). But the clerkship office didn't exist before she got here. Yes professors and the economy have something to do with it, but an increase in clerkships in one year by almost 30% can be attributed a lot to her. You're also on a forum that provides a lot of guidance on clerkship applications. The majority of applicants probably relied on her. Even small things like explaining the application procedure and timeline had helped students. Also, anecdotally, I'm sure career services tells some people not to waste bids on certain firms - they are honestly just trying to maximize our chances given what they know about us. To an extent that's the same with her, though sending out an extra application for a clerkship wouldn't really be all that difficult.

And yes, I have spoken to her a number of times about certain things, and she was helpful each time.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... kships.htm

rising 2L here...

Your argument is invalid, but thanks for playing!

[Yardbird]

Just because your personal experience was bad doesn't mean others didn't find her helpful. I'm not saying she's the best (I've heard stories of her discouraging people from applying to clerkship that they were competitive for). But the clerkship office didn't exist before she got here. Yes professors and the economy have something to do with it, but an increase in clerkships in one year by almost 30% can be attributed a lot to her. You're also on a forum that provides a lot of guidance on clerkship applications. The majority of applicants probably relied on her. Even small things like explaining the application procedure and timeline had helped students. Also, anecdotally, I'm sure career services tells some people not to waste bids on certain firms - they are honestly just trying to maximize our chances given what they know about us. To an extent that's the same with her, though sending out an extra application for a clerkship wouldn't really be all that difficult.

And yes, I have spoken to her a number of times about certain things, and she was helpful each time.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... kships.htm

rising 2L here...

Your argument is invalid, but thanks for playing!

Not quite, her job isn't just about helping get clerkships. Also, you're argument is an ad hominem.

[daleearnhardt123]

Just because your personal experience was bad doesn't mean others didn't find her helpful. I'm not saying she's the best (I've heard stories of her discouraging people from applying to clerkship that they were competitive for). But the clerkship office didn't exist before she got here. Yes professors and the economy have something to do with it, but an increase in clerkships in one year by almost 30% can be attributed a lot to her. You're also on a forum that provides a lot of guidance on clerkship applications. The majority of applicants probably relied on her. Even small things like explaining the application procedure and timeline had helped students. Also, anecdotally, I'm sure career services tells some people not to waste bids on certain firms - they are honestly just trying to maximize our chances given what they know about us. To an extent that's the same with her, though sending out an extra application for a clerkship wouldn't really be all that difficult.

And yes, I have spoken to her a number of times about certain things, and she was helpful each time.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... kships.htm

rising 2L here...

Your argument is invalid, but thanks for playing!

Not quite, her job isn't just about helping get clerkships. Also, you're argument is an ad hominem.

Hahaha her job isn't about helping people get clerkships? Isn't that what you JUST said we should be praising her for?
Tell me, rising 2L, what then is her job about? Helping you decide where to get lunch in cville? Giving directions to get to the wineries? Helping students NOT to get clerkships? You really just don't know what you're talking about do you. When every rising 3L with a clerkship tells you she was at best worthless, and more likely a net negative, you should listen.

[pertristis]

Not quite, her job isn't just about helping get clerkships. Also, you're argument is an ad hominem.

Whilst her position entails more than just clerkships, her title is "Director of Judicial Clerkships."

Also, his or her argument is not an ad hominem argument: Because you're a rising 2L, and because only 2Ls and 3Ls actively seek clerkships (yes, there are very rare judges who will hire after 1L, but that's by far the exception and not the norm), your current law school status is not an irrelevant fact and does impact the weight of your statement.

Here's an actual ad hominem: You can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're," so what makes you think you can comment on Ms. Payne's effectiveness?

[pertristis]

Hahaha her job isn't about helping people get clerkships? Isn't that what you JUST said we should be praising her for?
Tell me, rising 2L, what then is her job about? Helping you decide where to get lunch in cville? Giving directions to get to the wineries? Helping students NOT to get clerkships? You really just don't know what you're talking about do you. When every rising 3L with a clerkship tells you she was at best worthless, and more likely a net negative, you should listen.

She met with me my 1L year regarding post-1L summer jobs, including plenty of non-judicial jobs.

[BruceWayne]

Not quite, her job isn't just about helping get clerkships. Also, you're argument is an ad hominem.

Whilst it's her position entails more than just clerkships, her title is "Director of Judicial Clerkships."

Also, his or her argument is not an ad hominem argument: Because you're a rising 2L, and because only 2Ls and 3Ls actively seek clerkships (yes, there are very rare judges who will hire after 1L, but that's by far the exception and not the norm), your current law school status is not an irrelevant fact and does impact the weight of your statement.

Here's an actual ad hominem: You can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're," so what makes you think you can comment on Ms. Payne's effectiveness?

Lol it's amazing how many people don't understand what an ad hominem is. I got into an argument with some very uneducated people the other day about that and they just had no idea. The example you gave is perfect but it's incredible how many people can't differentiate between that and something like, "Africa is a continent not a country; you're ignorant."

Anyway sorry for sidetracking you guys!

[olive16]

What exactly is your point? That Ruth Payne might have helped a few people during her career?

Unlike you, my friends and I have been through the clerkship application process. I haven't surveyed the entire 3L class, but I haven't encountered a single person who thought Ruth Payne was helpful. What's more, her advice has actually harmed several people (told them they weren't competitive for clerkships they eventually got, told them a particular judge wasn't hiring when she was, etc.).

Feel free to respond with more delightful generalities like, "Just because your personal experience was bad doesn't mean others didn't find her helpful." But until you and your friends have been through the CS application process, stfu.

[Yardbird]

Not quite, her job isn't just about helping get clerkships. Also, you're argument is an ad hominem.

Whilst her position entails more than just clerkships, her title is "Director of Judicial Clerkships."

Also, his or her argument is not an ad hominem argument: Because you're a rising 2L, and because only 2Ls and 3Ls actively seek clerkships (yes, there are very rare judges who will hire after 1L, but that's by far the exception and not the norm), your current law school status is not an irrelevant fact and does impact the weight of your statement.

Here's an actual ad hominem: You can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're," so what makes you think you can comment on Ms. Payne's effectiveness?

Just because I'm a rising 2L doesn't mean I don't know people who have gone through the clerkship process and found her helpful. Attacking someone's argument because he or she is a rising 2L and insinuating he or she doesn't know what he or she is talking about because of that is 100% an ad hominem argument - just like your little hypothetical argument above (and for the record, my phone autocorrected to "you're"). Yes her title is "Director of Judicial Clerkships," but I know many 1Ls who received good advice for intern applications for this summer and since the clerkship timeline has moved up significantly, she has also given us advice on the clerkship application process and timeline moving forward. Also very helpful. My rising 3L friends and friends who graduated who are clerking also found her helpful.

I'm not attacking your position that she is unhelpful at times, I'm just providing another view of her and what she's done that gives a better picture than the one sided arguments being made so far.

[daleearnhardt123]

Not quite, her job isn't just about helping get clerkships. Also, you're argument is an ad hominem.

Whilst her position entails more than just clerkships, her title is "Director of Judicial Clerkships."

Also, his or her argument is not an ad hominem argument: Because you're a rising 2L, and because only 2Ls and 3Ls actively seek clerkships (yes, there are very rare judges who will hire after 1L, but that's by far the exception and not the norm), your current law school status is not an irrelevant fact and does impact the weight of your statement.

Here's an actual ad hominem: You can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're," so what makes you think you can comment on Ms. Payne's effectiveness?

Just because I'm a rising 2L doesn't mean I don't know people who have gone through the clerkship process and found her helpful. Attacking someone's argument because he or she is a rising 2L and insinuating he or she doesn't know what he or she is talking about because of that is 100% an ad hominem argument - just like your little hypothetical argument above (and for the record, my phone autocorrected to "you're"). Yes her title is "Director of Judicial Clerkships," but I know many 1Ls who received good advice for intern applications for this summer and since the clerkship timeline has moved up significantly, she has also given us advice on the clerkship application process and timeline moving forward. Also very helpful. My rising 3L friends and friends who graduated who are clerking also found her helpful.

I'm not attacking your position that she is unhelpful at times, I'm just providing another view of her and what she's done that gives a better picture than the one sided arguments being made so far.

While there's something to be said for presenting both sides of an argument I can't help but conclude that you're just concocting nonsense in order to maintain the illusion that there's two sides here. If there are any such rising 3Ls as you've described, I've yet to meet them. Nor have I heard stories of their existence third-hand.

So she gave you the timeline of applying to judicial internships for 1L summer. WOW, big deal ! One of your PAs surely could've done this. Or simpler yet, a 2 page manual.

[Yardbird]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

[Gooner91]

I think shadow is taking about an ad hominem circumstantial (similar to a genetic fallacy) and the rest of you are talking about an hominem abusive. I don't necessarily think it was either type but there seemed to be some confusion.

[North]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

Looks like our median is actually like a 3.4. Great.

[First Offense]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

Looks like our median is actually like a 3.4. Great.

Those are rising 3Ls - 1L Median probably is smack dab at 3.3.

How do you get over a 4.0?

[pertristis]

I think shadow is taking about an ad hominem circumstantial (similar to a genetic fallacy) and the rest of you are talking about an hominem abusive. I don't necessarily think it was either type but there seemed to be some confusion.

[strike]I was referring to[/strike] My example was definitely ad hominem abusive. Thanks for clearing that up.

[pertristis]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

Looks like our median is actually like a 3.4. Great.

Those are rising 3Ls - 1L Median probably is smack dab at 3.3.

How do you get over a 4.0?

The A+ grade does exist.

[First Offense]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

Looks like our median is actually like a 3.4. Great.

Those are rising 3Ls - 1L Median probably is smack dab at 3.3.

How do you get over a 4.0?

The A+ grade does exist.

Dayum. I want me one of those.

[albanach]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

I wonder if whoever forwarded confidential information to ATL was smart enough to not use their UVA email account? From the IT policy:

"[O]fficials overseeing the University’s disciplinary processes may rule that electronic communications and files are evidence that may be reviewed as part of investigations. Under these circumstances, the privacy of your email and other files is not guaranteed."

[First Offense]

Uh oh. http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... pplicants/

I wonder if whoever forwarded confidential information to ATL was smart enough to not use their UVA email account? From the IT policy:

"[O]fficials overseeing the University’s disciplinary processes may rule that electronic communications and files are evidence that may be reviewed as part of investigations. Under these circumstances, the privacy of your email and other files is not guaranteed."

If they went after the leaker, it would be a fucking nightmare. UVA would be back on ATL in a second.

[albanach]

If they went after the leaker, it would be a fucking nightmare. UVA would be back on ATL in a second.

In what way would it be bad for the school to be seen to attempt to protect confidential information?

Edited to add, whoever forwarded that email is either very confident that they won't be caught, or has never seen a Bar Association's Character and Fitness Questionnaire. As an aspiring attorney, I wouldn't want to be explaining to the Bar that I have difficulty keeping confidences.

[albanach]

The A+ grade does exist.

Dayum. I want me one of those.

Where A+ exists, C grades are rarely far away.

[DMXdawg]

Did UVa change their grading policies? I'm assuming ATL marked the GPAs based on class rank. 3.6 at 25% is a marked difference from 3.48 when I was a 1L.

[turkeysub]

Did UVa change their grading policies? I'm assuming ATL marked the GPAs based on class rank. 3.6 at 25% is a marked difference from 3.48 when I was a 1L.

Speaking of which, anyone have a hunch of whether it's like this for c/o 2014?

[pertristis]

The A+ grade does exist.

Dayum. I want me one of those.

Where A+ exists, C grades are rarely far away.

In one of my 1L classes, there were 3 A+s. I forgot what the other side looked like.