WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[deebs]

Kind of ridiculous that KE Skadden and Sidley will all be there but not Mayer Brown and the rest that a tier down. That probably tells you all you need to know abou how they're doing vs the rest of the market... though I thought Skadden had cut its class and wasn't racing out of the ITE gate like Kirkland and the other V10s. Odd that they'd make the trip if that's the case.

It sucks.

Mayer is going to every T14 + UofI. I'd like to see Illinois' OCI list to compare. Anyhow, from a 2L (3L I guess now) I know that was top 10%, you better be in the single digits of the class to snag an interview with Kirkland Ellis. They took one kid from wustl last year, and he was in the top 5 (numerical) overall.

[thebigdog]

@ romo: from a kid transferring to ucla:

uclaguy: 237 listed (some duplicates and some resume collect)
uclaguy: 24 of them are resume collection
uclaguy: everyone else are interviewing
uclaguy: jones day is interviewing for 15 different offices

so maybe he's counting offices, i'm not sure. Anyhow, blows ours out of the water with 70 listed

[0LNOOB]

Delete

[romothesavior]

Living up to my name, I have a question about OCI. I see a lot of differentiation between unique employers and offices in this forum, but I'm not sure how they differ with regards to OCI. If different offices of the same firm are all hiring at Wash U, aren't they each looking for a separate position?

It's hard to tell, but typically yes. Some employers list "Interviewing For" every office they have, when they really only have openings for a few. But yes, a firm is typically looking to fill slots at multiple offices if it says they are hiring for multiple offices. But depending on the firm, they may not take more than a few people total for each office.

[0LNOOB]

Delete

[TatteredDignity]

The commiserating is eye-opening and welcomed. Any insight into the world we're about to plunge into is helpful. Thanks!

[TatteredDignity]

I know this has been discussed several times in this thread, but if anyone happens to hear word on the street of what cutoffs the KC firms are looking for, could you share? That'd be great. (As I understand it, having ties doesn't have anything to do with getting the interview, more with getting a callback...right?)

[fl0w]

I know this has been discussed several times in this thread, but if anyone happens to hear word on the street of what cutoffs the KC firms are looking for, could you share? That'd be great. (As I understand it, having ties doesn't have anything to do with getting the interview, more with getting a callback...right?)

well ties can get you an interview outside of OCI. or at least a meet up. Which is what you want; to talk to someone in person, give them a feel for you, get them to like you and remember you. Then in your cover letter you can reference them and they can say "oh yeah Joey is awesome, let's bring him in!"

ties help everything.

As for KC specific cutoffs.. psh i dunno. Shook is a large player there and they have some expectations. haven't seen a hard cutoff for them, but others may know. And i've seen them in several fairs recruiting for KC.

[camstant]

I know this has been discussed several times in this thread, but if anyone happens to hear word on the street of what cutoffs the KC firms are looking for, could you share? That'd be great. (As I understand it, having ties doesn't have anything to do with getting the interview, more with getting a callback...right?)

KC firms, just like most other big firms, are still looking toward the top of the class. They are willing to go a little deeper into the class at wustl compared to KU or UMKC, but grades are just as important to them as they are in any other city. Ties will definitely be important for getting you an interview, and I think that KC, being a smaller market, will be looking for something on your resume or your cover letter that indicates that you actually have in interest in KC. The screening interview ill determine if they believe you will stay in KC, probably not the callback.

Firms in KC that are coming to OCI: Shook (top 20%), Bryan Cave (top 1/3), Husch Blackwell (top 30%), Stinson Morrison (top 25%), Polsinelli (top 1/3), Lathrop (top 20%)...I might be forgetting one, but there you go. Don't mean that to be daunting, you'll be in a good spot being from KC and having a wustl degree, but that doesn't mean your grades matter less.

[camstant]

I should hope that no incoming 0Ls expect law school to be a breeze or a guarantee at a good job. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that. Every day be WUSTLin. <__<

You would be surprised, actually...

[stratocophic]

I should hope that no incoming 0Ls expect law school to be a breeze or a guarantee at a good job. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that. Every day be WUSTLin. <__<

You would be surprised, actually...

Especially about the second. You'll always have people who come in that are hilariously wrong about how smart they are and how hard they'll need to work, but there are some who think WashU's a magic carpet to $$$. It makes me feel like I'm telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist, because dammit I wanna believe too.

[TatteredDignity]

Kind of ridiculous that KE Skadden and Sidley will all be there but not Mayer Brown and the rest that a tier down. That probably tells you all you need to know abou how they're doing vs the rest of the market... though I thought Skadden had cut its class and wasn't racing out of the ITE gate like Kirkland and the other V10s. Odd that they'd make the trip if that's the case.

This post got me to thinking about something related to transferring. I had wondered why people would want to transfer up from Wash U... it seemed like if you had been fortunate enough to finish high enough to transfer anywhere meaningful (T6, I guess) then you would also be high enough to have all the options you cared for at Wash U (excluding feeder COA and like, V5). So, is that not necessarily true? And have you all heard of anyone in your class transferring out yet?

And, in case you were inclined, save the lecture about planning to transfer. I'm not even "planning" to get above median. This is just curiosity.

[stratocophic]

Kind of ridiculous that KE Skadden and Sidley will all be there but not Mayer Brown and the rest that a tier down. That probably tells you all you need to know abou how they're doing vs the rest of the market... though I thought Skadden had cut its class and wasn't racing out of the ITE gate like Kirkland and the other V10s. Odd that they'd make the trip if that's the case.

This post got me to thinking about something related to transferring. I had wondered why people would want to transfer up from Wash U... it seemed like if you had been fortunate enough to finish high enough to transfer anywhere meaningful (T6, I guess) then you would also be high enough to have all the options you cared for at Wash U (excluding feeder COA and like, V5). So, is that not necessarily true? And have you all heard of anyone in your class transferring out yet?

And, in case you were inclined, save the lecture about planning to transfer. I'm not even "planning" to get above median. This is just curiosity.

Yeah, top grades from WUSTL will get you an interview pretty much anywhere. I dunno by the time you transfer before 2L, unless you're top 15-20% and got CCN or something, I can't see the utility of transferring unless you want academia or something. Can't save yourself from being a bad interviewer, and top 10% shouldn't have any trouble if they aren't terrible. At the very least you ought to be able to pick up a solid clerkship, though maybe "just" an appellate/supreme state court.

[Hannibal]

I should hope that no incoming 0Ls expect law school to be a breeze or a guarantee at a good job. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that. Every day be WUSTLin. <__<

You would be surprised, actually...

Especially about the second. You'll always have people who come in that are hilariously wrong about how smart they are and how hard they'll need to work, but there are some who think WashU's a magic carpet to $$$. It makes me feel like I'm telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist, because dammit I wanna believe too.

I should rephrase, because I have a lot of sympathy for people that think it'll be a guarantee at a good job with enough hard work. I'm more talking about the people that think the hard part is over and the jobs will be handed to them just for going to WUSTL.

[Oban]

I'm trying to be proactive and search jobs outside of lolci. I'm focusing on job fairs and contacting firms in my home market. Thinking about jobs and oci is most definitely scary. But as romo said, we all knew this going in. I personally have a kind of a back of plan(or maybe that's what i keep telling myself), but i'm still skerd.

Also about grades: I wouldn't call them random as in "spin the wheel" or "roll of the dice" random, but there seems to be little to no correlation to preparation, intelligence, hours spent working(except for uber gunners)

My best grade came in the class I spent very little time working on/preparing for. My second best grade came in a class I spent hours on and read every frigging supplement for. My lowest grade came in a class i totally understood, and the professor even looked at a practice answer and said it was great.

At the end of the day, i just think some kids are going to be at the top no matter what methods, lsat, or whatever they do. Some kids will be at the bottom because they are just lazy/dumb and some will be there because they got fucked by the curve. The rest of us are just spinning our wheels, scratching our heads and grasping at straws.

I'm in that juicy middle third band of the gpa and i figure what ever happens at Oci happens, no point in worrying about that shit anymore. I probably should have simply tuned out a bit spring semester but it was just so buisy. Next two years i'm going to spend chilling the fuck out and enjoying a healthy mix of serious classes(corporations, evidence) and luzly pass fail classes to boost the ole gpa.

[stratocophic]

I should hope that no incoming 0Ls expect law school to be a breeze or a guarantee at a good job. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that. Every day be WUSTLin. <__<

You would be surprised, actually...

Especially about the second. You'll always have people who come in that are hilariously wrong about how smart they are and how hard they'll need to work, but there are some who think WashU's a magic carpet to $$$. It makes me feel like I'm telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist, because dammit I wanna believe too.

I should rephrase, because I have a lot of sympathy for people that think it'll be a guarantee at a good job with enough hard work. I'm more talking about the people that think the hard part is over and the jobs will be handed to them just for going to WUSTL.

Oh no that's exactly who I was talking about. I feel bad for them because they don't even know what's coming. Whether that's better or worse than knowing is debatable I guess. I won't comment on the other demographic because people know who I am and that's basically grade outing to people who I haven't talked to about them. I think I've done a good job of not divulging them in other threads too but I can be absentminded so who knows.

Edit: earlier comment was laughing at the cocky people and feeling bad for the people who legitimately can't figure out why all of the water on the beach is disappearing and as a faint roaring sound gets closer and closer. Though maybe I shouldn't feel so bad about them not even knowing when I shake my head at TTT kids who don't research. I dunno. Also Oban's post is very credited. Gotta just let go and enjoy the last 2 years, especially since they're fairly meaningless.

[fl0w]

I personally have a kind of a back of plan(or maybe that's what i keep telling myself), but i'm still skerd.

My backup plan is the only thing I'm confident about. If I really don't get a law job, I'll just pick where I want to live, move there and make 6figures doing what I was doing before law school...

But I came here because I want a law job!

[JCougar]

My lowest grade came in a class i totally understood, and the professor even looked at a practice answer and said it was great.

Both my second and third lowest grades came in classes where this exact same thing happened. My LP professor told me my draft memo was the best one he'd seen so far. I ended up getting a median grade on it. Then my open brief, he looked it over and flat out said "you're going to get a good grade on this." I ended up getting below median.

The one class I was sure I was acing, I took about 8 practice tests, read through two hornbooks, the E&E, etc. Basically studied 15 hours a day Spring semester after spring break, mostly on this class. I had my professor look over one of his old exams I took, and he told me I should be "VERY happy" with where I was so far. I got a median grade.

That's what frustrates me. I go to the professors and ask them how to improve, and they have no advice, except for "you're doing great."

It means nothing. When the "legal analysis" part of the exam is easy enough for 80% of the class to get, then the test ceases to test legal analysis. Because as long as you're in the top 80% of the class, you got the legal analysis right, and the rest of your grade turns on non-legal, non-analysis factors, such as number of words typed, simply saying stuff that's unnecessary but strokes the professor's ego, etc. I've compared my median exams to the model answers, and I've gotten basically all the issues that the model answers have, and sometimes even more. The only difference is that the model answers are twice as many words.

[Hannibal]

I don't understand how all of it can be that stuff and luck, but still have people who CALI 3 or 4 classes a year.

[nyyankees]

I don't understand how all of it can be that stuff and luck, but still have people who CALI 3 or 4 classes a year.

Apply law to fact. People interpret that sentence in different ways.

[JCougar]

I don't understand how all of it can be that stuff and luck, but still have people who CALI 3 or 4 classes a year.

I don't think it's all luck. There are people who figure out how to overcome the luck factor.

For me, it's basically randomness, though. I'll never be able to type enough words to overcome the luck factor, so my grades are scattered all over the place. Level of preparation had nothing to do with it.

In fact, my highest grade was a class where I got called on in the second week of the semester, and then didn't even read any of the cases until spring break because I knew I wouldn't get called on again...I read about 300 pages in the casebook over spring break. Then I pretty much ignored the class until the week before finals, and I gunned hard the three study days before the test. I ended up with a top 10% grade.

I sacrificed my reading in that class because I wanted to kill another class, and spent most of my time being an absolute silent gunner for that class. All the extra studying and preparation did me no good. I could have cited basically all the little 3-paragraph note cases by heart. I had the black letter law memorized.

But the legal "issues" on the final exam turned out to be less complex than I expected, so I imagine basically everyone in the class got them right. And since I probably typed half as many words as the model answer (yet still arrived at the same conclusions), I probably lost "analysis" points or something weird like that.

[flexityflex86]

this seems to just demonstrate the importance of going to a very good school. if all you control is not being at the bottom, and the rest is luck, you shouldn't rely on luck.

[Oban]

I don't understand how all of it can be that stuff and luck, but still have people who CALI 3 or 4 classes a year.

I think the people who cali everything are a "cut above" They have several things going for them: Can type insanely fast, can split hairs into a thousand pieces, known how to artfully say everything + kitchen sink.

Some people just get lucky first semester, have no idea how they did so good, and keep doing it. Some people just brute force their way. I heard stories of top people just absolutely grinding it out, going to office hours weekly, etc


I never wen't into law school expecting top 10 percent, I was prepared for median. However ultimately i am perplexed and amused by grades. In undergrad, 90 percent of my grades were the same, and there were a few outliers, in law school, i didn't get the same number twice.

The only classes that had a correlation to effort for me were LP (Above median) and LRM (Below median lol)

After that, it's like a thew darts at a board and ended up with a bit of everything, even two grades separated by 15 points lol. Should be fun talking about it in interviews.

Anyway, but i do think somethings are learnable. In classes where i spent more time trying to psychoanalyze the professors grading style, i did better, but sometimes they lied to me(such as the prof who said my answer and writing style were excellent) or had perpetual poker faces.

[seatown12]

The only difference is that the model answers are twice as many words.

Seems like the easy answer then is to take some typing classes so you can get your word count up, right?

[0LNOOB]

Do any of you regret going to Wash U or law school in general?