Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions Forum

[Bankhead]

Barring a connection, biglaw in Indy or Louisville (possibly Cincinnati, Dayton, etc.) is all that is currently available. Top 20% and ties to the market is a must.

Totally wrong. We had a large international firm based in Louisville doing OCI for 1L's, and they were asking for top 1/3rd. Not sure why they would see top 1/3rd when they only take top 20%. I know those spots filled up FAST.

Not sure where you get your numbers Bankhead...

just because a firm will select you for a screening interview doesn't mean they'll hire you. yeah, you might be able to get a job like that at top third if you interview well and provide other factors that they are interested in (work experience, good social skills, etc.)

hey, i'm sure people have gotten these firms from the median, but it's the exception, not the rule.

chances are, that firm will take from the top 5-10% this year...

[Spoonmanners]

Top 5-10% aren't going to be going to Louisville if they don't want to.

It doesn't make sense to interview a whole extra group if you have zero intention of hiring them. They filled up very quickly, so they could have had increased their selectivity. That's just a foolish statement to make. Firms will waste their own time to interview people because... they like losing money or wasting their own time? They were here all day long. Why under any circumstance would a firm say they are even interviewing lower than what they hire? Firms are just like law schools, and they love their prestige. I am confident they would rather say they only interview or accept top 10% of students. Why include top third? Probably because they are actually hiring, and not wasting their own time, the students time, the schools time, in some non-nonsensical effort to tell everyone they interview a level of students that are below than what they actually hire.

I think that says a lot more than Bankhead saying "chances are..." without any sort of facts, reasoning, or even general theory to support it.

It's much more reasonable to assume that top 1/3rd has a chance at large firms in secondary markets in the region, because large firms in secondary markets in the region come to campus to interview the top 1/3rd.

[Bankhead]

top 5-10% don't exactly have their pick of 1L big firm jobs... if you want biglaw as a 1L you'll damn well take Louisville. this is the only biglaw firm that came to interview on campus this spring.

what do you mean by "they filled up very quickly so they could have increased selectivity". do you know how a preselect works?

how do you know they wanted top third? i didn't see that qualification anywhere.

[RMstratosphere]

top 5-10% don't exactly have their pick of 1L big firm jobs... if you want biglaw as a 1L you'll damn well take Louisville. this is the only biglaw firm that came to interview on campus this spring.

what do you mean by "they filled up very quickly so they could have increased selectivity". do you know how a preselect works?

how do you know they wanted top third? i didn't see that qualification anywhere.

I appreciate that you two are having this conversation so that I can get some insight. I'm wondering- does biglaw in Indy not really exist? I would think that IU-B should dominate what ever market might be present there. Similarly, I would think that top IU-B grads would have their pick of Louisville firms. If those two statements are correct then it seems that more than %15 of a 200 person class (30 students) would be eligible? Is it the case that biglaw jobs are very scarce in these cities, that the jobs exist but firms are hiring from elsewhere, or what?

As a disclaimer, I don't have any real interest in biglaw but I am obviously interested as to the options I might have.

[kings84_wr]

Indy isn't a huge big law market but there are about 10-15 very large firms. I would assume that IU is the top feeder into the Indy market, but Im really not sure what the stats are.

I think self selection may also come into play. There are a lot of people here who are not big-law or nothing types in the top 10%. I would take a clerkship and a job with the US Attorney's office or something similar over big law any day.

I know Professor Steele (former hiring partner at Fenwick & West) has said that we should only expect around 20% of students to get jobs at OCI in the coming years at all similar schools to IU.

[Spoonmanners]

top 5-10% don't exactly have their pick of 1L big firm jobs... if you want biglaw as a 1L you'll damn well take Louisville. this is the only biglaw firm that came to interview on campus this spring.

what do you mean by "they filled up very quickly so they could have increased selectivity". do you know how a preselect works?

how do you know they wanted top third? i didn't see that qualification anywhere.

Sorry, obviously I should have been clearer. I would hate to come off as some sort of ignorant asshole who has no idea what they are talking about but stand by their vague and unsubstantiated claims.

We have a firm coming from Indy as well. Not sure if it is "Biglaw" but they do start you out at 6 figures. No firms are killing themselves to pay 1L's to do what they could just as easily get 2L's to do, but the showing isn't bad for 1st year OCI.

They filled up quickly because by the time the job opened and the time I went to check it out, there were no more spots. They could have still filled up even if they were more selective.

I know they wanted top third because that is what was on their OCI listing. It wasn't on their email, it was on a job description. I know this because I checked it out. I guess you could still interview if not in the top third, but that is what they asked for. That is where I got my numbers, as I would find it foolish to simply pull them out of my ass.

[Spoonmanners]

Indy isn't a huge big law market but there are about 10-15 very large firms. I would assume that IU is the top feeder into the Indy market, but Im really not sure what the stats are.

I think self selection may also come into play. There are a lot of people here who are not big-law or nothing types in the top 10%. I would take a clerkship and a job with the US Attorney's office or something similar over big law any day.

I agree with that. Indy is certainly not New York, but there are a good handful of firms that start out new recruits above $100K.

And I know a handful in the top 10% who have no interest in biglaw, or even practicing with the degree. It's funny, I thought 90% of the school would have been looking for the best paying job, but there are a good number who want to teach, go immediately into litigation, or a number of other things.

[kings84_wr]

In my legal professions class our prof asked how many of us were gunning for Big-law and like 5 people raised their hands, and literally 1/4 of the class had no idea what big-law even really was. Steele was kind of in shock at the response haha.

I only know 1 or 2 other guys that are in the top 5 percent range, and neither of them are interested in big law either. I do have a few friends in the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the class that want big law.

I really think self selection comes into play a lot, I really think quite a few us weren't gunning for big law to begin with, and thats why we came to IU.

[RMstratosphere]

Indy isn't a huge big law market but there are about 10-15 very large firms. I would assume that IU is the top feeder into the Indy market, but Im really not sure what the stats are.

I think self selection may also come into play. There are a lot of people here who are not big-law or nothing types in the top 10%. I would take a clerkship and a job with the US Attorney's office or something similar over big law any day.

I know Professor Steele (former hiring partner at Fenwick & West) has said that we should only expect around 20% of students to get jobs at OCI in the coming years at all similar schools to IU.

Thanks to you and Spoon for the further explanation. That makes a lot of sense.

[kings84_wr]

If you wanna see the big firms in the different cities around IU, you can check out the Nalp Directory. It will say how many students they hired last year, the size of the firm, practice areas etc.

[RMstratosphere]

If you wanna see the big firms in the different cities around IU, you can check out the Nalp Directory. It will say how many students they hired last year, the size of the firm, practice areas etc.

I had no idea this tool existed. Thank you for sharing. I wish I would have known about this for months!

[Bankhead]

The problem with Indianapolis isn't that there are no biglaw firms, it's that there are about 7-10 firms that only take about 5 summer associates each summer. Louisville, I believe, is even smaller.

You just don't have the 30+ size summer classes that you do in larger markets. IU Indy (and to a lesser extend Notre Dame) unfortunately does take away some jobs as well.

It also appears that there is some confusion about how a preselect OCI system works: With a preselect system, you submit your materials to the firm and they decide who they want to interview based on that pool of candidates. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if they ask for top 10%, top 50%, or let the entire class submit. They are still free to choose the best grades or whatever other factors they want. It does not matter if you submit faster than other people, etc. The employer looks at the pool, and selects from there.

Example: 30 people bid at IU bid on a Louisville firm. The firm preselects 15 to do screening interviews at IU. Same thing at Vandy and ND. Firm takes 2 callbacks from here, 3 from Notre Dame, 4 from Vandy.

[RMstratosphere]

If you wanna see the big firms in the different cities around IU, you can check out the Nalp Directory. It will say how many students they hired last year, the size of the firm, practice areas etc.

I had no idea this tool existed. Thank you for sharing. I wish I would have known about this for months!

Perhaps I'm the only NALP-ignorant 0L on the Board but if not, I found the following helpful:

--LinkRemoved--

[kings84_wr]

So did all you non-awesome leg profession classes enjoy the greatness that is John Steele today?

I really wish law schools and IU for that matter, would hire more former attorneys and partners, they really bring a more practical perspective to lecture. I guess Shreve in CivPro is another example, I think he was a plaintiffs lawyer though.

[RMstratosphere]

I realize that this topic has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, however, I would like to know what IU-B students' intuitions are.

I'm trying to make plans for what I'll be doing (professionally) during the summer before 1L ('10). It seems to me that several options are available:

1) Non-paid legal job
1a) Something that would be considered PI work
1b) Intern with a judge/court or other government entities
1c) Something I've not considered (I doubt firms would even be an option)
2) Volunteer work of another nature
3) Whatever will pay me the most
4) Xbox 24/7

The specific reason for my post is that I think I have strong enough connections, in my area, that I could swing an internship with the local Public Defender's Office (city of ~200,000+) or a local judge. Would either of these be beneficial to me in any meaningful sense? Perhaps I'd get nothing more than a better handle on legal jargon even if legal employers wont care about the experience?

I realize that the predominant theme on TLS seems to be that I should do nothing, or close to nothing, and just enjoy a summer off. I understand that sentiment and haven't ruled it out. On the other hand, I'm not looking to get an uber-gunner start on school.

Thank you all in advance for your replies- this thread has been a great help to me already.

[kings84_wr]

While I do agree with the general TLS view, after seeing a lot of friends struggle with 1l job search it may be nice to have some type of legal experience on a resume before law school (assuming that you don't have any before). Of course if you have strong connections you would be able to get a job your 1l year regardless, but it could help in looking for a firm that wants some experience. (and now that i think about it even those with previous legal work have struggled to find jobs)

I personally didn't really do anything. I hung out with my friends and family, worked out (i miss the days of being in shape now lol), and enjoyed the summer. I ended up moving to bloomington in August and just hung around the week or two before classes.

I doubt it will help you that much. I know various times in interviews and even mock interviews at school I felt a bit incompetent having no real experience on my resume, but to be honest I don't think it hurt me.

At the very least it will give you connections for this dumb leg professions paper if you end up at IUB

[Unjust Enrichment]

I realize that this topic has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, however, I would like to know what IU-B students' intuitions are.

I'm trying to make plans for what I'll be doing (professionally) during the summer before 1L ('10). It seems to me that several options are available:

1) Non-paid legal job
1a) Something that would be considered PI work
1b) Intern with a judge/court or other government entities
1c) Something I've not considered (I doubt firms would even be an option)
2) Volunteer work of another nature
3) Whatever will pay me the most
4) Xbox 24/7

The specific reason for my post is that I think I have strong enough connections, in my area, that I could swing an internship with the local Public Defender's Office (city of ~200,000+) or a local judge. Would either of these be beneficial to me in any meaningful sense? Perhaps I'd get nothing more than a better handle on legal jargon even if legal employers wont care about the experience?

I realize that the predominant theme on TLS seems to be that I should do nothing, or close to nothing, and just enjoy a summer off. I understand that sentiment and haven't ruled it out. On the other hand, I'm not looking to get an uber-gunner start on school.

Thank you all in advance for your replies- this thread has been a great help to me already.

If you come to IU, I'd recommend summer start since you're obviously open to spending at least part of your summer getting a running start.

Failing that, I'd just say relax as much as possible.

[Unjust Enrichment]

So did all you non-awesome leg profession classes enjoy the greatness that is John Steele today?

I really wish law schools and IU for that matter, would hire more former attorneys and partners, they really bring a more practical perspective to lecture. I guess Shreve in CivPro is another example, I think he was a plaintiffs lawyer though.

Yes, I officially really really wish I had drawn Steele. I mean, it was early and I didn't want to be up, but he made a very good impression on me in any case.

[Spoonmanners]

I realize that the predominant theme on TLS seems to be that I should do nothing, or close to nothing, and just enjoy a summer off.

Good call. Nothing is great. Any internship they will give to a 0L will be making copies. It would only be good for making connections. If you want to get gunner-ish read through some E&E's I guess. I would vote traveling or sitting on your ass. Catch up on TV, because your ability to watch reduces dramatically come the start of the semester.

OH! Read Getting to Maybe. I read part of it last summer before Torts. It was assigned, but it was pretty helpful while laying out at the pool.

[Vincent Vega]

Get a fun job. I am working at a summer camp.

[Spoonmanners]

Get a fun job. I am working at a summer camp.

That should give you plenty of time to finish up your outlines.

[Vincent Vega]

Get a fun job. I am working at a summer camp.

That should give you plenty of time to finish up your outlines.

?

[RMstratosphere]

I realize that this topic has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, however, I would like to know what IU-B students' intuitions are.

I'm trying to make plans for what I'll be doing (professionally) during the summer before 1L ('10). It seems to me that several options are available:

1) Non-paid legal job
1a) Something that would be considered PI work
1b) Intern with a judge/court or other government entities
1c) Something I've not considered (I doubt firms would even be an option)
2) Volunteer work of another nature
3) Whatever will pay me the most
4) Xbox 24/7

The specific reason for my post is that I think I have strong enough connections, in my area, that I could swing an internship with the local Public Defender's Office (city of ~200,000+) or a local judge. Would either of these be beneficial to me in any meaningful sense? Perhaps I'd get nothing more than a better handle on legal jargon even if legal employers wont care about the experience?

I realize that the predominant theme on TLS seems to be that I should do nothing, or close to nothing, and just enjoy a summer off. I understand that sentiment and haven't ruled it out. On the other hand, I'm not looking to get an uber-gunner start on school.

Thank you all in advance for your replies- this thread has been a great help to me already.

If you come to IU, I'd recommend summer start since you're obviously open to spending at least part of your summer getting a running start.

Failing that, I'd just say relax as much as possible.

Thank you all for the advice.

As for summer start- it seemed to me that I would be putting myself at a slight disadvantage. I would be worried about taking a class as a 1L with predominantly 2Ls. That seems like fish in a barrel to me. Is this not the case?

[Spoonmanners]

Get a fun job. I am working at a summer camp.

That should give you plenty of time to finish up your outlines.

?

Oh. I guess not everyone comes in the first day with a full outline. NBD I guess.

[Spoonmanners]

Sorry. Total joke I remember having a mini-freak out or two, and maybe I just gave you one.

That would be funny if someone had a full outline though.