UC Hastings Students Taking Questions Forum

[kapital98]

@OneMoreLawHopeful:

I think this is all mere speculation and taking things too far. There is no evidence that LEOP has lower bar passage rates. The supplemental course is there for the same reason that LEOP has a week long, LEOP only, introduction to law school. It's to help the students succeed.

From my tiny 1L LEOP section (~20 people) I came away with the impression that they did better than average. I would think these people will do the same on the bar exam. However, I'm sure almost all of these students will also take the supplemental course even though they really don't need it.

The only area where I can see you being correct is incoming LSAT/GPA numbers. If they have any correlation then I can see there being reason for concern. However, I don't believe there is a strong correlation. There is a very strong correlation between law school performance and bar passage. However, we all know that incoming stats have little to do with law school performance.

I think this is all just speculation (myself included). There is no hard data.

[Lasers]

i just want to say that i have seen some of the materials LEOP students receive, and there is no doubt in my mind those materials and the accompanying tutoring provided were advantages during 1L year. LEOP provided great outlines (rarely circulated if at all), unreleased practice tests, and worksheets that provided guidance on essay structure, etc. for specific topics/exams.

even if we were to agree upon affirmative action in the admission process, the materials LEOP provides is unfair within the context of 1L competition. i don't think that being in LEOP/economically disadvantaged automatically justifies the receipt of privileged material or guidance in law school. i knew several LEOP students, and i never once questioned their capacity to succeed without exclusive assistance. i wish the school didn't either.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I think this is all just speculation (myself included). There is no hard data.

I think this is the real problem.

I don't actually begrudge anyone "extra" outlines or practice tests; I just wish Hastings would open the damn books up and let us see once and for all what the LEOP program looks like. At ~80 students per class, it's not like the LEOP kids would lose anonymity if their median LSAT scores and bar pass rates were published.

But I might also be biased: I've always made my own outlines and I haven't voluntarily taken a practice test since 1L year. I understand that everyone has a different "learning style" but my style wouldn't have benefited from extra outlines/extra practice tests, so it's hard for me to get in a huff over it.

I think the real problem is that Hastings has previously not been the most forthcoming institution: they claimed 1L year that they had "all kinds of international alumni contacts" but the ABA 509 reports suggest that only 3 students a year actually get jobs abroad. The NALP report Hastings releases every year is heavily redacted (for "privacy" reasons, even though smaller schools release the same data without the same concerns). Going into graduation I've been required to report a TON of information to Hastings (the REQUIRED graduation survey was invasive and ridiculous), and yet as a student I don't get to see any of that information in a way that might have been helpful (e.g. "What GPA has this firm historically used as a cut-off?").

As a result, I tend to think "If Hastings isn't releasing the info, it must be for a bad reason."

To be honest, it really was refreshing to hear that LEOP students were very successful in at least one section, and I honestly hope that is representative of the "LEOP experience." I really don't want to believe the negative speculation; I just also don't have faith in Hastings' other decisions to withhold data.

[Cal Trask]

I hate to derail this discussion, and I asked the question once before, but how's the gym at the tower? Number of squat racks? Olympic lifting area? Racquetball courts and such?

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I hate to derail this discussion, and I asked the question once before, but how's the gym at the tower? Number of squat racks? Olympic lifting area? Racquetball courts and such?

I don't recall seeing racquetball courts, and I've never counted the squat racks, but it' pretty good. I've never had to stand around and wait to use equipment. Some of the stuff is a little dated, but not to the point that if should affect your workout.

The only major complication is that professors use the gym during the day A LOT. I never found this really awkward but some people don't want to hop on a treadmill right next to their civ pro professor.

The other thing to know, which I actually didn't know about until 3L year (and would have used a TON if I knew about it earlier) is that you can join the UCSF gym as a Hastings student for $20/month (http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/fitn ... rship_fees ). They have AMAZING facilities including multiple swimming pools. I live out in the Inner Sunset, so it's been particularly good for me because it's much closer to my apartment than the Tower.

[Cal Trask]

I hate to derail this discussion, and I asked the question once before, but how's the gym at the tower? Number of squat racks? Olympic lifting area? Racquetball courts and such?

I don't recall seeing racquetball courts, and I've never counted the squat racks, but it' pretty good. I've never had to stand around and wait to use equipment. Some of the stuff is a little dated, but not to the point that if should affect your workout.

The only major complication is that professors use the gym during the day A LOT. I never found this really awkward but some people don't want to hop on a treadmill right next to their civ pro professor.

The other thing to know, which I actually didn't know about until 3L year (and would have used a TON if I knew about it earlier) is that you can join the UCSF gym as a Hastings student for $20/month (http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/fitn ... rship_fees ). They have AMAZING facilities including multiple swimming pools. I live out in the Inner Sunset, so it's been particularly good for me because it's much closer to my apartment than the Tower.

oh that's great to know. I was going to ask if there was an affordable pool nearby too, but figured I could check for a ymca or whatever. thanks for that. now i just need to find a reasonably-priced place to live.

[hiima3L]

It's kind of funny to me thinking that people truly believe it matters in that it affects the rankings. The rankings do not matter at all. Hastings has some of the worst employment rates in the nation, way worse than plenty of lower-ranked schools. Whether UCH is #25 or #55 it's still a gigantic uphill battle to getting a good job. This has been more true than ever for the past 5 or so years.

I don't think you understand the complaints about LEOP.

I do. I just don't think that, even assuming LEOP affects the rankings, it could do so in any meaningful way.

But I had no idea LEOP was so huge. Frankly, that's ridiculous. Is there any way to figure out how LEOP students do in terms of class rank? That is a very, very strong indicator of the likelihood of passing the bar. I think schools, especially public schools, need to stop handholding people who can't pass the bar. If you can't pass the bar on your own or with minimal assistance (i.e., prep materials), you should not be a lawyer period. But I digress.

Even if LEOP has a disproportionate impact on employment stats, I still maintain that school ranking will hardly affect overall employment. You have next to a 0% shot of getting a job through OCI unless you're top 15%, maybe 20% if you're URM or IP. And if you don't get a job out of OCI, you're essentially in the same boat as everyone else. I highly doubt whether UCH is in the top 30 or the top 60 will change OCI employment prospects much, but of course none of us knows because UCH is treating into uncharted territory with its almost 30-place drop in the past few years. Regardless, whether you have a 12% shot of landing big law vs. a 5% shot is meaningless to me. Both are horrible odds and do not justify going $100k into debt.

[hiima3L]

I hate to derail this discussion, and I asked the question once before, but how's the gym at the tower? Number of squat racks? Olympic lifting area? Racquetball courts and such?

The only major complication is that professors use the gym during the day A LOT. I never found this really awkward but some people don't want to hop on a treadmill right next to their civ pro professor.

Bahahaha. I only saw said treadmill-using civ pro professor in the gym. Never any others. But I almost only went late at night, so.

[Dingo Starr]

The other thing to know, which I actually didn't know about until 3L year (and would have used a TON if I knew about it earlier) is that you can join the UCSF gym as a Hastings student for $20/month (http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/fitn ... rship_fees ). They have AMAZING facilities including multiple swimming pools. I live out in the Inner Sunset, so it's been particularly good for me because it's much closer to my apartment than the Tower.

Followup note: they also have a gym in Mission Bay that may be more accessible for Hastings students who do not live out by Parnassus.

Trask, you locked in for Hastings now?

[Cal Trask]

[quote="Dingo Starr"][/quote]

Deposited a couple weeks ago.

[Dingo Starr]

Deposited a couple weeks ago.

Sweet. I'll be seeing you around, along with Moonlight.

[Moonlight]

Deposited a couple weeks ago.

Sweet. I'll be seeing you around, along with Moonlight.

Yup yup!

[lisavj]

I definitely appreciated the showers at the gym, as a commuter student it was great to not have to show up for class sweaty and gross. I also was generally surprised that there were machines open when I wanted them (I would often go either before class in the morning or after class but before dinner).

[Lasers]

i never saw many people at the gym, but that's probably because i worked out around 10pm-1am.

the weight room really needs to be renovated, and they need new weights and benches. the ballroom/cardio area isn't bad, though. i appreciated having towels available, too.

[kapital98]

I liked the gym. I used it 3-4 times a week. I grew with a hole-in-wall gym so I didn't mind the old equipment.

Biggest con: Terrible leg equipment. I'm not a fan of their leg press or lack of other leg machines. You have to get inventive if you plan on having high intensity leg workout. Not impossible.

Surprising Perk: I really liked having the heavy bag in there. It's where I first learned how to throw punches.

Biggest Plus: It's open 24/7 (unofficially) and is within the same building where you live. There were points in the semester when I felt like going to workout at 1am in the morning. No one else would be in the gym. I had it all to myself.

Even during peak hours the gym is still not too busy.

[lisavj]

Almost forgot, the towels are nice, but nowhere near large enough for showering, so bring your own if you don't live in the tower.

[Dingo Starr]

Almost forgot, the towels are nice, but nowhere near large enough for showering, so bring your own if you don't live in the tower.

Also an important tip for galactic hitchhiking.

[lisavj]

Almost forgot, the towels are nice, but nowhere near large enough for showering, so bring your own if you don't live in the tower.

Also an important tip for galactic hitchhiking.

I believe 180 is the response to this on these forums?

[Moonlight]

These forums are just on their own level lol

[kapital98]

Almost forgot, the towels are nice, but nowhere near large enough for showering, so bring your own if you don't live in the tower.

Also an important tip for galactic hitchhiking.

I believe 180 is the response to this on these forums?

TCR

[caligirl8]

Just got my housing offer for an efficiency apartment in the Tower. I thought I would be fine living in a 250 sq ft room, but am starting to freak out about how cramped it may be. A friend of mine brought up a good point to me saying that this it the place where I will come back to to rest and recharge myself and it's important that I find it comfortable. Anyone ever lived in an efficiency room or have a friend who has? Did you find it manageable? Thanks!

[Lasers]

Just got my housing offer for an efficiency apartment in the Tower. I thought I would be fine living in a 250 sq ft room, but am starting to freak out about how cramped it may be. A friend of mine brought up a good point to me saying that this it the place where I will come back to to rest and recharge myself and it's important that I find it comfortable. Anyone ever lived in an efficiency room or have a friend who has? Did you find it manageable? Thanks!

i did my first year, but i'm a guy, so i might just generally need less space. i kinda got used to everything being condensed, and after a few weeks into 1L, it was the last thing on my mind.

[deebanger]

Just got my housing offer for an efficiency apartment in the Tower. I thought I would be fine living in a 250 sq ft room, but am starting to freak out about how cramped it may be. A friend of mine brought up a good point to me saying that this it the place where I will come back to to rest and recharge myself and it's important that I find it comfortable. Anyone ever lived in an efficiency room or have a friend who has? Did you find it manageable? Thanks!

how much is the rent?

[hiima3L]

Just got my housing offer for an efficiency apartment in the Tower. I thought I would be fine living in a 250 sq ft room, but am starting to freak out about how cramped it may be. A friend of mine brought up a good point to me saying that this it the place where I will come back to to rest and recharge myself and it's important that I find it comfortable. Anyone ever lived in an efficiency room or have a friend who has? Did you find it manageable? Thanks!

I did as a 1L. It will be cramped unless you have next to nothing. There is no getting around that. I opted to sleep on a less than ideal pull-out couch to save space. But I rarely spent time in my room aside from relaxing, sleeping, and eating. There are plenty of places in the Tower and on campus to hang out if you're feeling claustrophobic. My biggest complaint though was how tiny the kitchen was. I like cooking but gave up on anything remotely involved because it was such a PITA.

[Shortterm12]

I'm not going to Hastings but if anyone has any questions about SF housing, please feel free to PM me. A 250 sq ft studio does not sound pleasant. SF's housing is definitely pricey but there are more reasonable places to live.