If you could go back in time and deal with loans Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

have you considered taking some time off to work? if you managed to get into chicago, you can probably get someone to pay you $40k a year to do something. Law school will always be there. The chance to figure out what you want to do unencumbered by 300k in debt won't be there after law school.

This is true.

And no- I haven't considered it. I figure I should get to work. Grab my JD by age 24, have 6 years to make a dent in my loans before I hit my 3rd decade of life

If you don't take out debt you're not stuck with this timeline.

[star fox]

Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living. You're not destitute. You should focus on getting good grades 1L. I guess if you're very type A you can have it all but most of your classmates will be study bots and you'll be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you have other obligations Bessie's school.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living. You're not destitute. You should focus on getting good grades 1L. I guess if you're very type A you can have it all but most of your classmates will be study bots and you'll be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you have other obligations Bessie's school.

"Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living."

Are you insinuating that the tax payer is paying higher taxes then they other wise would in order to subsidize people who attend law school because they feel they are entitled to live in a nice apartment?

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

[star fox]

Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living. You're not destitute. You should focus on getting good grades 1L. I guess if you're very type A you can have it all but most of your classmates will be study bots and you'll be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you have other obligations Bessie's school.

"Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living."

Are you insinuating that the tax payer is paying higher taxes then they other wise would in order to subsidize people who attend law school because they feel they are entitled to live in a nice apartment?

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

No, I'm saying your Cost of Living will be covered by Federal Government loans, so it's not like you *need* to work, and during 1L your focus should be on grades, and just maintain your expenses to a reasonable level, rather than try and extract every additional dollar just so your debt will be lower at the end. You're enrolling in law school at that point, so go all in. If you need an additional $10K in savings, work for another year before enrolling.

In Chicago, you can find plenty of places to rent around that price in safe neighborhoods. I was just using those numbers as examples, you can substitute more appropriate numbers for whatever location law school requires you to move.

[Desert Fox]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living. You're not destitute. You should focus on getting good grades 1L. I guess if you're very type A you can have it all but most of your classmates will be study bots and you'll be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you have other obligations Bessie's school.

"Just remember that you're poor. It's not difficult but a lot of law students grew up well off and thus are unwilling to compromise on luxuries they've had their whole lives. As a result they pay $1500 for rent when they could pay $800.

I would caution against side hustling for an additional $5K. The taxpayer is taking care of your cost of living."

Are you insinuating that the tax payer is paying higher taxes then they other wise would in order to subsidize people who attend law school because they feel they are entitled to live in a nice apartment?

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

No, I'm saying your Cost of Living will be covered by Federal Government loans, so it's not like you *need* to work, and during 1L your focus should be on grades, and just maintain your expenses to a reasonable level, rather than try and extract every additional dollar just so your debt will be lower at the end. You're enrolling in law school at that point, so go all in. If you need an additional $10K in savings, work for another year before enrolling.

In Chicago, you can find plenty of places to rent around that price in safe neighborhoods. I was just using those numbers as examples, you can substitute more appropriate numbers for whatever location law school requires you to move.

Ahh, I gotcha now. I just hadn't heard of apartments being anywhere near $800 in large cities. I know watched a special where this girl who worked at a restaurant was living in what was basically a closet for $1.7k.

[star fox]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

It depends on the person. Some are used to riding the bus and shopping at Walmart so that's how they continue to live because that's just how they're supposed to live. I think that's more likely than the converse - a rich person turned debt enslaved poor learning that groceries outside of Whole Foods are edible and won't kill you.

[zot1]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

I hate to admit this is true and it's partially because of lack of education and the fact of not having for something so long. They tend to not have budgets and when they get a big chunk of money (think tax refunds), the money is spent quite quickly. I have a friend who bought an oversized car with an awful interest rate, but he essentially said, if I don't buy this car now then when?

I am not just accusing people... This comes from experience. I definitely overspent in law school partially because I did nothing in college but study, go to class, work, and sometimes sleep.

[Desert Fox]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

I hate to admit this is true and it's partially because of lack of education and the fact of not having for something so long. They tend to not have budgets and when they get a big chunk of money (think tax refunds), the money is spent quite quickly. I have a friend who bought an oversized car with an awful interest rate, but he essentially said, if I don't buy this car now then when?

I am not just accusing people... This comes from experience. I definitely overspent in law school partially because I did nothing in college but study, go to class, work, and sometimes sleep.

I spent literally a quarter million dollars to get a job I hate. I can't judge anyone's financial choices.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

I think this is a disgusting over characterization that doesn't encompass the plight of being poor. I understand your perspective, but that is not all poor people.

In addition, often times the only difference from the vast majority of law students and "poor people", is the fact you have decided to go into indentured servitude by borrowing 200k+ from the government.

[Desert Fox]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

I think this is a disgusting over characterization that doesn't understand the plight of being poor. I understand your perspective, but that is not all poor people.

In addition, often times the only difference from the vast majority of law students and "poor people", is the fact you have decided to go into indentured servitude by borrowing 200k+ from the government.

It's definitely a generalization, but it's more or less accurate at a mile high view.

Moreover it's only the poor law students who go 200k+ into debt. The rich one's aren't that retarded. There is a reason the average law grad debt is $100,000 and poor retards like myself had 264k. We bought into their scam.

[zot1]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

I hate to admit this is true and it's partially because of lack of education and the fact of not having for something so long. They tend to not have budgets and when they get a big chunk of money (think tax refunds), the money is spent quite quickly. I have a friend who bought an oversized car with an awful interest rate, but he essentially said, if I don't buy this car now then when?

I am not just accusing people... This comes from experience. I definitely overspent in law school partially because I did nothing in college but study, go to class, work, and sometimes sleep.

I spent literally a quarter million dollars to get a job I hate. I can't judge anyone's financial choices.

I know you're not judging and I'm not either. And yes, this is an over generalization. Of course I also know poor people who can stretch a penny way better than I can stretch 100 bucks.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

Plenty of top law schools with rent way below $800, the toppiest of all the law schools is in that category.

Bottom line is OP can take out 300K, OP can pay it back and OP's future kids, if any, can have a nice life (even with an absent parent) or OP can commit to a low income and saving the world.

If OP goes biglaw, he can pay it back, but unless he's a sycophant and comfortable operating with less than 5 hours of sleep per night, then he's gonna have a bad time.

Anyways, OP is committed, so OP should just live modestly, put the nose to the grindstone and try to remember OP's sentiment as of today's date--because turn the clock forward and he might be the new poster on the block telling kids what's up and that graduating law school at 24 is more tragedy than accomplishment.

Signed, someone who regrets having at one point probably $500,000 in student loans.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

I think this is a disgusting over characterization that doesn't understand the plight of being poor. I understand your perspective, but that is not all poor people.

In addition, often times the only difference from the vast majority of law students and "poor people", is the fact you have decided to go into indentured servitude by borrowing 200k+ from the government.

It's definitely a generalization, but it's more or less accurate at a mile high view.

Moreover it's only the poor law students who go 200k+ into debt. The rich one's aren't that retarded. There is a reason the average law grad debt is $100,000 and poor retards like myself had 264k. We bought into their scam.

Right, I just take issue with your lack of empathy- maybe I misinterpreted the intent of your initial comment. The reason the vast majority of them are going to the stupid fucking check n go places is because it is either that or they and their family doesn't eat, not because they aren't financially savvy. Granted, the vast majority of them probably aren't.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

Plenty of top law schools with rent way below $800, the toppiest of all the law schools is in that category.

Bottom line is OP can take out 300K, OP can pay it back and OP's future kids, if any, can have a nice life (even with an absent parent) or OP can commit to a low income and saving the world.

If OP goes biglaw, he can pay it back, but unless he's a sycophant and comfortable operating with less than 5 hours of sleep per night, then he's gonna have a bad time.

Anyways, OP is committed, so OP should just live modestly, put the nose to the grindstone and try to remember OP's sentiment as of today's date--because turn the clock forward and he might be the new poster on the block telling kids what's up and that graduating law school at 24 is more tragedy than accomplishment.

Signed, someone who regrets having at one point probably $500,000 in student loans.

Do you mind if I ask how far you are on paying down the 500k?

[SD619]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

Desert fox has a point. I'm poor so therefore I have no idea what a checking account or direct deposit is.

I'd run down to the liquor store and get my biglaw check cashed out (and then buy a few thousand dollars worth of swisher sweet cigarillos and hot Cheetos)


Desert- does your opinion change when I say I'm Mexican? We have a tendency to stuff our cash into mattresses until we have enough to send back to Oaxaca or TJ to support our 300 relatives haha.

But real talk, ur a fool man

[Desert Fox]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

Desert fox has a point. I'm poor so therefore I have no idea what a checking account or direct deposit is.

I'd run down to the liquor store and get my biglaw check cashed out (and then buy a few thousand dollars worth of swisher sweet cigarillos and hot Cheetos)


Desert- does your opinion change when I say I'm Mexican? We have a tendency to stuff our cash into mattresses until we have enough to send back to Oaxaca or TJ to support our 300 relatives haha.

But real talk, ur a fool man

Real talk flamin' hot cheetos and cream cheese is amazin'

[SD619]

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

Plenty of top law schools with rent way below $800, the toppiest of all the law schools is in that category.

Bottom line is OP can take out 300K, OP can pay it back and OP's future kids, if any, can have a nice life (even with an absent parent) or OP can commit to a low income and saving the world.

If OP goes biglaw, he can pay it back, but unless he's a sycophant and comfortable operating with less than 5 hours of sleep per night, then he's gonna have a bad time.

Anyways, OP is committed, so OP should just live modestly, put the nose to the grindstone and try to remember OP's sentiment as of today's date--because turn the clock forward and he might be the new poster on the block telling kids what's up and that graduating law school at 24 is more tragedy than accomplishment.

Signed, someone who regrets having at one point probably $500,000 in student loans.

I appreciate the pragmatism and I believe I am beginning to understand the many possible pitfalls of my potential decision to go to Uchi at basically sticker.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

Plenty of top law schools with rent way below $800, the toppiest of all the law schools is in that category.

Bottom line is OP can take out 300K, OP can pay it back and OP's future kids, if any, can have a nice life (even with an absent parent) or OP can commit to a low income and saving the world.

If OP goes biglaw, he can pay it back, but unless he's a sycophant and comfortable operating with less than 5 hours of sleep per night, then he's gonna have a bad time.

Anyways, OP is committed, so OP should just live modestly, put the nose to the grindstone and try to remember OP's sentiment as of today's date--because turn the clock forward and he might be the new poster on the block telling kids what's up and that graduating law school at 24 is more tragedy than accomplishment.

Signed, someone who regrets having at one point probably $500,000 in student loans.

Do you mind if I ask how far you are on paying down the 500k?

It's not all law loans, I don't know how much I have left (still in the 300 range for law), but it's like 50/50 whether or not I get tax bombed. However, I have a variety of safety nets and tremendous credit, both of which I 1000% take advantage of. If I was totally on my own like OP, any amount of debt should be terrifying, but what better option does he have? (Maybe none, it ain't a fair world by any means).

[SD619]

Has anyone ever met poor people? They are atrocious with money. OP is more likely to cash his biglaw checks as CASH2GO than have an 800 dollar apartment.

Desert fox has a point. I'm poor so therefore I have no idea what a checking account or direct deposit is.

I'd run down to the liquor store and get my biglaw check cashed out (and then buy a few thousand dollars worth of swisher sweet cigarillos and hot Cheetos)


Desert- does your opinion change when I say I'm Mexican? We have a tendency to stuff our cash into mattresses until we have enough to send back to Oaxaca or TJ to support our 300 relatives haha.

But real talk, ur a fool man

Real talk flamin' hot cheetos and cream cheese is amazin'

Cream cheese....?

Desert Fox confirmed for double legacy, private-schooled, suburban white kid...

Inb4 he says something about drinking lemoncello or that he understands the plight of poor Hispanics because he had a nanny and a cleaning lady named Luz

(I'm Just being cheeky- gotta make that clear since smiles don't translate through text)


Also- I don't begrudge anyone of economic privilege nor am I jealous- rather, I am impressed- if anything, I want to emulate their parents to eventually achieve success for myself.
Thats why I want advice from everyone. Different perspectives help me immensely.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

One more question- where can you find rent for $800 in any of the cities with a highly ranked school?

Plenty of top law schools with rent way below $800, the toppiest of all the law schools is in that category.

Bottom line is OP can take out 300K, OP can pay it back and OP's future kids, if any, can have a nice life (even with an absent parent) or OP can commit to a low income and saving the world.

If OP goes biglaw, he can pay it back, but unless he's a sycophant and comfortable operating with less than 5 hours of sleep per night, then he's gonna have a bad time.

Anyways, OP is committed, so OP should just live modestly, put the nose to the grindstone and try to remember OP's sentiment as of today's date--because turn the clock forward and he might be the new poster on the block telling kids what's up and that graduating law school at 24 is more tragedy than accomplishment.

Signed, someone who regrets having at one point probably $500,000 in student loans.

Do you mind if I ask how far you are on paying down the 500k?

It's not all law loans, I don't know how much I have left (still in the 300 range for law), but it's like 50/50 whether or not I get tax bombed. However, I have a variety of safety nets and tremendous credit, both of which I 1000% take advantage of. If I was totally on my own like OP, any amount of debt should be terrifying, but what better option does he have? (Maybe none, it ain't a fair world by any means).

Jeez. I don't know what I think about this. I have always played life the opposite way. Avoid debt at all possible no matter what, if I get wealthy by busting my a$$ 24/7 great, if not, ok.

Good for you for paying down 200k.

I think my general problem with loans is for me personally, it is ultimately YOUR choice if you borrow money. That puts the choice on the individual- no one is forcing anyone to borrow any money here. At the end of the day if you trap yourself and you are stuck with all of that debt that is due to your own choices. You have no one to hate but yourself, regardless of whether or not society is fair.

I don't think I could bare the psychological torment that would come if I got myself stuck in debt I couldn't get out of.

Obviously that is just me personally and everyone is different. I think information is more available now than in any other time in history so who knows, I probably would have done it 10 years ago if that is when I graduated.

I just want to emphasize I mean no disrespect with the above, this is just how I think about things. Who knows, I could be living a very boring life because of it.

[kennethellenparcell]

OP first of all - did you get into any lower T14 schools? Did you try negotiating with your UChicago scholly yet? If not, worth a try.

I came from a similar background to you and big law is 100% a step up. If you're first generation immigrant like me, then big law really won't seem that bad. You can handle it - spend about three years in a good law firm (which you'll definitely be able to get from UChicago) and network and try to find a good in-house position. Or lateral to a more lifestyle firm. Trust me, recruiters will be banging on your door from like day one. It's not all doom and gloom like people say on here. Sure, big law isn't easy (and I'm still in my first year at my law firm) but it's a decent gig if you're trying to move up in the world.

As for tips to deal with loans/debt in general:
- if you're interest in PI, definitely try to get that experience during your 1L summer and join clinics and integrate yourself with those profs to learn about opportunities. At UChicago, there will be people who, if they can't teach you themselves, will be able to put you in touch with the people that can teach you. There's no shortage of people who will help if you ask. And if the first person you ask won't help, another one will.
- I worked for 3 years to save up before I went to law school. If you know you want to go to law school 100% right now, I wouldn't go this route. Otherwise, I'd defer at UChicago and go work. It helped significantly with my first year rent and food expenses.
- Pay down interest if you can during school, or at least before it capitalizes. You can get an interest deduction on your taxes for this (until the year you start making over $80K I think) - if you can afford to pay off the interest.
- Like everyone said, don't blow your SA dollars - save and use toward rent, food etc.
- Also, being in Hyde Park, your rent will be cheap. If you can get/are willing to get roommates, you can save a lot on those costs and use some of your dollars to pay tuition.
- I got a part-time job 3L year to help with food and rent costs. May be a good idea if you have the time.
- Finally, refinance after graduation if you can! There are some banks (First Republic e.g.) that are offering insanely low fixed rates. But if you're going into PI ultimately, re-financing may not make sense because your loans will be forgiven anyway.
- Also, don't get sucked into the law student high rolling life. One of the biggest shocks I had to my system was going to UChicago for undergrad. Almost everyone was wealthier than me and lacked the perspective I had growing up - almost made me ashamed of how I was raised. It was even worse in law school, but I already had that shock to my system and it didn't bother me as much anymore.

Having a lot of debt sucks but I would say it's a hell of a lot better than the life my parents had to lead to give me the opportunities I have now. Plus, honestly - I don't have the luxury to do the things I want. I need to have a decent-paying job to take care of them as they get older.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

[quote="asdfdfdfadfas"][/quote]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I do not advocate debt and I certainly do not advocate law school. But if OP wants nice things and to be fake upper middle class (like most of America's upper middle class), then leverage it up to the hilt.

It's insane, but a lot of people in nice neighborhoods have a net worth that is less than a factory worker (actually in my nice neighborhood, I am relatively well off believe it or not), and I think that is something that a lot of traditional blue collar Americans do not realize.

After all, it's not how much you're worth, but how much debt you can comfortably service--no bubbles or other issues there

[asdfdfdfadfas]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I do not advocate debt and I certainly do not advocate law school. But if OP wants nice things and to be fake upper middle class (like most of America's upper middle class), then leverage it up to the hilt.

It's insane, but a lot of people in nice neighborhoods have a net worth that is less than a factory worker (actually in my nice neighborhood, I am relatively well off believe it or not), and I think that is something that a lot of traditional blue collar Americans do not realize.

After all, it's not how much you're worth, but how much debt you can comfortably service--no bubbles or other issues there

Indeed. The problem with the above is most people are simply indebting themselves to purchase consumer goods or hoping for a good job at some time in the future. I think that isn't the best strategy.

[SD619]

have you considered taking some time off to work? if you managed to get into chicago, you can probably get someone to pay you $40k a year to do something. Law school will always be there. The chance to figure out what you want to do unencumbered by 300k in debt won't be there after law school.

This is true.

And no- I haven't considered it. I figure I should get to work. Grab my JD by age 24, have 6 years to make a dent in my loans before I hit my 3rd decade of life

OP has all these people telling him sticker debt is a terrible idea and is still going through absurd mental gymnastics to talk himself into it. Don't waste your energy on this one, guys; it's a hopeless cause.

OP: Years from now, with no end in sight to your debtpwnage, remember that everyone warned you, and you thought they were all crazy.

If that's what you gleaned from reading this thread- that I'm "talking myself into" anything, then I don't think I should be following any advice coming from you in the first place.

If you read the title of the thread... I wasn't saying "Hey guys I want your opinion on whether I should go to Chicago at near sticker".

Rather, I said, respectfully- please, assuming that this is the situation I will be pursuing, regardless of whether you think it is prudent or not, knowing what you know from experience, how can I put myself in the most favorable position to pay this off?

If you read through, I think I have been a pretty good sport toward people derailing my original question and just telling me about how bad of an idea it is.