Law school with a spouse Forum

[lymenheimer]

DF? Speak to me in abbreviations I understand. I'm an old woman, Lymen, so I basically only understand lol or jk.

DesertFox the poster. Not that he's unattractive, but I guess you've not seen much of his self-loathing and self-loathing PWs (selfies).

[carmensandiego]

DF? Speak to me in abbreviations I understand. I'm an old woman, Lymen, so I basically only understand lol or jk.

DesertFox the poster. Not that he's unattractive, but I guess you've not seen much of his self-loathing and self-loathing PWs (selfies).

Holy shit there are DF selfies that I'm unaware of??!! From my limited (usually negative) interactions with him, it doesn't sound too farfetched.

[SemperLegal]

Ugh, this entire thread makes me want to take a shower. Law people are disgusting.

If you get into a relationship with an attorney, you're going to have a shitty life. I don't know any dual-attorney relationships that are happy.

I'm surprised no one else responded to this, but I totally agree. No offense to anyone in these forums who are married/dating fellow LS students or attorneys, but I just couldn't. While I'm not married, I live with my SO and having him work in a totally different career is something that I admire and find necessary - If I had to talk about law and that it includes at home and at work, I'd be miserable.

Maybe it is for that above reason that I never find someone at my LS "attractive" enough to bat an eye, or maybe I'm just mature enough to keep my feelings for my SO all there. Regardless, I think if you start to stray from your SO, it's not law school's fault, it is your very own.

First of, none of the very many law school dicorcees I know cheated. But if you think that infidelity is the only (or even biggest) threat to a marriage, you are mistaken.

You are hitting on the issue. People don't talk about law school or the law with thief spouse in the same way other professionals do (because lay people find it dumb, infuriating, or boring and we have to talk about it all day). Meanwhile, you spend most of your waking hours (between class, journal, studying, and extra curricular) discussing not only the 'law, but also economics, politics, core beliefs, and views of the future with classmates who are mostly successful and intelligent.

Most outgoing, rational people will start to form close friendships, or at least high levels of respect, for some of their classmates and will naturally self select to spend more time together through shared classes, clubs, sports, and events. Mix those feelings with some physical attraction and shared stressors and thrills, and you're well on your way to an emotional affair.

At the same time, unless you are trying your hardest, you and your spouse will become more distant. They resent you a little bit for being in school and expanding your horizons while they work, and your views on the world have (hopefully) shifted. It's very easy to wake up and realize that you drifted a little further from each other, and a little closer to your respective support network. That's a hard thing to recover, hence the high divorce rate.

I mean, doesn't that just reiterate my point that it is about maturity?

Entertain this: You will literally be surrounded by smart educated people from LS until you retire, congrats you picked a career that takes a high level of education and a decent amount of intelligence. And lets face it, people who are highly educated and/or intelligent, also take care of themselves so they are attractive. Usually the right combination of intelligence and education equates a level of charisma and ability to socialize with people around you. All of these above things are NOT unique to the LS experience, they are ordinary to any professional degree program and professional work climate.

So you're telling me you won't run into social, attractive, and smart people your first day as an associate? Wrong. You will. If you continue to think that LS is the reason why people cheat and have divorces, that is nonsense. People cheat and have divorces because they are not at the right maturity level to be in the relationship that they wrongfully put themselves in. Blaming LS or any sort of professional climate is not the answer. And even if you are right, join a career with unintelligent uglies and people of your same sex, I don't know what to tell you buddy.

Listen, I can copy paste my post again, or You can read all three paragraphs.

[carmensandiego]

Listen, I can copy paste my post again, or You can read all three paragraphs.

Semper, I read all three of your most recent paragraphs. I understand what you're saying but from my own personal experience and common sense, I think it's nonsense. Emotional affairs (which I consider cheating so I interchange those terms) are completely avoidable if you and your SO are open, mature, and make a genuine effort to keep the flame alive. If you love someone enough to marry them, you should love them enough to still have close enough friendships and professional relationships with LS peers and co-workers, and not even touch the very marked line of emotional or physical infidelity.

I think relationships (marriage or not) are hard as hell and you have life against you two. I don't think a professional climate such as LS is the most tasking that a marriage or relationship can face. LS is only three years, your career is 30+. Are you telling me that 3 years of LS is more tasking on a relationship than 30+ years of work, kids, finances, biological changes that happen when you get older, etc.?

E: to delete the previous convos since they're long.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I honestly don't agree that law school is in any way uniquely stressful to a marriage. Stress is stressful, and at times law school is stressful (but it's not the insanely uniquely stressful thing that many people make it out to be). But law school isn't really the problem.

And yeah, actually, I do think that if you're not going to cheat, you don't cheat. Cheating is on the individual, not on the circumstances.

But I also find kind of odd the idea that law school has uniquely smart and interesting people you wouldn't have otherwise encountered and therefore they're more tempting.

I agree with this, and if law school alone is enough to break a couple up I actually do think it was likely to happen anyway because law school is a relatively normal level of stress compared to most of adult life. However, the idea that whether relationships/marriages work out or not is almost entirely independent of outside circumstances is absurd. But there's certainly no way to ever scientifically prove that one way or the other, so I suppose it's purely a matter of belief.

No, you're right, I probably oversold that. I just don't believe law school is one of the outside circumstances that really does break up a marriage. And specific to cheating, I don't think there are outside circumstances that compel anyone to cheat (even if you meet the true love of your life and realize your spouse is not that person, you can end the marriage without actually cheating). I kind of elided those things together. But of course cheating isn't the only thing that can break up a marriage, so I took that a little too far.

[SemperLegal]

I honestly don't agree that law school is in any way uniquely stressful to a marriage. Stress is stressful, and at times law school is stressful (but it's not the insanely uniquely stressful thing that many people make it out to be). But law school isn't really the problem.

And yeah, actually, I do think that if you're not going to cheat, you don't cheat. Cheating is on the individual, not on the circumstances.

But I also find kind of odd the idea that law school has uniquely smart and interesting people you wouldn't have otherwise encountered and therefore they're more tempting.

I didn't say it was the most stressful thing, but obviously it's beyond doubt that both lawyering and law school is, statically, bad for marriages.

It's because the stress (in the broadest sense, not just emotional stress) that it puts on a marriage is definitely way different than most other grad schools or carers. In addition, because if this strange meme that any part of a marriage is anything but hard (and worthwhile) work, makes law students complacent.

Obviously my wife was angry that I missed three birthdays in a row due to the military, and I was envious of her having a normal job while I got treated like dirt for a living (not to mention what people who didn't like me did). But those stressors are easy to rationalize and are understood by the public.

The same is true to a lesser extent in biglaw. I work late because partner told me to and she pays me a lot to do so. I'm working for us, and we see concrete evidence of that twice a month. We cash in on it most weekends.

But in law school, every time I chose to study on a weekend, she had to wonder a little more if I could have done more during the week if I really, really wanted to spend time with her (even though, logically, she knows that there's only so much you can learn in a day). Every time we had to skip drinks or an appetizer to save money she earned (especially when I could cop 2-3 free good meals a week), added a stressor. Every time I was an hour later than I thought, with the legitimate excuse that I was busy "obsessing" over misplaced commas, finding citations to prove tautologies, or analyzing an insane hypothetical that came up in clinic/might be on an exam, she accepted the excuse a little less. Her friends and family are little help, because they honestly don't have any idea what law school even is.

On the flip side, yes you socialize with co-workers anywhere else. You see them at work, you socialize with them, you might even be in the same leagues as them and enjoy the same activities. But since law school doesn't have set hours but is mostly a closed system, the effects are different. You end up joining the same clubs/pro bono projects that, hopefully, are new and rewarding experiences that lead to personal growth; you self-select into the same networking/lecture events/journal where you experience together the weird law school mix of shitty work and well-funded play; freak out with them when you spontaneously and temporarily realize you are never going to get a job and don't know if you really want one (but don't want to burden/disappoint your spouse); and discuss in everything with them from racism to loss spreading, the moral role of government to economic theory.

Respect, feeling understood, and shared experiences are a powerful aphrodisiac. There's a reason why, despite the insistence that law students are gross, so many of them hook up with each other. Most of us can, or flatter ourselves into thinking we can, constantly resist the temptation to cross the bright line of physical contact. However, it is only though luck or forethought that you can resist the inclination to become just a little too close to a person who also has mutual sexual chemistry, if not outright attraction

[A. Nony Mouse]

This is just kind of funny to me because I had no interest at all in anyone from my law school. The factors you describe facilitated friendships, not romance. Mostly I was just super relieved to have my social life sorted out and not have it interfere with law school.

Or maybe I was just particularly lucky in my spouse, since I did most of the things you describe with them almost as much as with my classmates.

[SemperLegal]

Listen, I can copy paste my post again, or You can read all three paragraphs.

Semper, I read all three of your most recent paragraphs. I understand what you're saying but from my own personal experience and common sense, I think it's nonsense. Emotional affairs (which I consider cheating so I interchange those terms) are completely avoidable if you and your SO are open, mature, and make a genuine effort to keep the flame alive. If you love someone enough to marry them, you should love them enough to still have close enough friendships and professional relationships with LS peers and co-workers, and not even touch the very marked line of emotional or physical infidelity.

That's nice to think, but the statistics are clear that this is the exception rather than the rule. I love my wife, but I watch her poop, argue over bills, and have to see her everyday. Of course there are going to be times when I would rather see someone only at there most presentable, when I would rather share my fears with someone I don't need to be strong for, our times when the spark begins to flicker. The key is a mix of prevention and rehabilitation. If I have the mindset that my spouse is "ride or die" or that our love is enough, confirmation bias won't let me repair whatever went wrong.

I think relationships (marriage or not) are hard as hell and you have life against you two. I don't think a professional climate such as LS is the most tasking that a marriage or relationship can face. LS is only three years, your career is 30+. Are you telling me that 3 years of LS is more tasking on a relationship than 30+ years of work, kids, finances, biological changes that happen when you get older, etc.?

E: to delete the previous convos since they're long.

It's never easy, but the more you have behind you, the harder it is to forget why you are going through the present pain. In law school, the opposite is true. You feel like all your real life is still ahead of you, your past is less valuable and less reassuring, and you have less invested (emotionally, timewise, and actual assets). Law school is not the time to slack off relationship wise.

[SemperLegal]

This is just kind of funny to me because I had no interest at all in anyone from my law school. The factors you describe facilitated friendships, not romance. Mostly I was just super relieved to have my social life sorted out and not have it interfere with law school.

Or maybe I was just particularly lucky in my spouse, since I did most of the things you describe with them almost as much as with my classmates.

I'm truly happy for you, but I think you are far from the norm. Most people don't have (or seem to want) spouses that have an interest in law or want to come to law school events.

Also, you are the expert on you, but I'm skeptical of the claim that there is no friendship from law school that your SO would object to/be hurt by if they knew the extent of.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I absolutely categorically disagree that having close friendships and professional relationships with LS colleagues is what leads to cheating when it happens in those circumstances.

I can't say that you didn't have these experiences in law school, but I still don't think they're about law school.

And you are absolutely entirely wrong that I have any law school friendships that my husband would be hurt by/object to the extent of. Don't extrapolate from your own relationship.

[Gray]

.

[BigZuck]

This Semper dude has very clearly never attended law school or is simply trolling. This is how I know:

Meanwhile, you spend most of your waking hours (between class, journal, studying, and extra curricular) discussing not only the 'law, but also economics, politics, core beliefs, and views of the future with classmates who are mostly successful and intelligent.

I mean, I guess you could choose to do that stuff if you wanted to but what person in their right mind would choose that for their life? Law school is bad enough, you're going to willfully choose to spend even more time there? With law students? Especially if you have a spouse? I do class, journal, study, etc. but I GTFO as soon as possible and keep as much distance as I can because I can't think of anything worse then immersing myself in that world. Thank God I have a spouse to escape to/with.

If you choose to strain your relationship because of law school then God help you, you were fated to do that anyway.

Anyway Nony is right here, gonna plus one all that as well

[carmensandiego]

This Semper dude has very clearly never attended law school or is simply trolling. This is how I know:

Meanwhile, you spend most of your waking hours (between class, journal, studying, and extra curricular) discussing not only the 'law, but also economics, politics, core beliefs, and views of the future with classmates who are mostly successful and intelligent.

I mean, I guess you could choose to do that stuff if you wanted to but what person in their right mind would choose that for their life? Law school is bad enough, you're going to willfully choose to spend even more time there? With law students? Especially if you have a spouse? I do class, journal, study, etc. but I GTFO as soon as possible and keep as much distance as I can because I can't think of anything worse then immersing myself in that world. Thank God I have a spouse to escape to/with.

If you choose to strain your relationship because of law school then God help you, you were fated to do that anyway.

Anyway Nony is right here, gonna plus one all that as well

All of this. Also, your own time is what you make of it. If you choose to alienate yourself from your spouse, that is your own fault and not the culture of law school. This past semester I worked, took classes, did a journal, and I still was home for dinner at night/weekends for my SO. Maybe Semper's LS is different (I don't see how it could be, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) but I rarely interact with my LS peers outside of the 5-10 minutes before and after class, when I see them randomly in the buildings, for group/journal work, etc. Anytime I'm actually at LS I'm either in class or in the library doing my own thing and no one certainly tries to charm the pants off me in those situations.

[SemperLegal]

I mean it's a nice thought, but stay woke. Law students estimate their individual chances of divorce 9% lower than the general population, but are 12% more likely to get one.


http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/oli ... l1iJICN5ww

[carmensandiego]

I mean it's a nice thought, but stay woke. Law students estimate their individual chances of divorce 9% lower than the general population, but are 12% more likely to get one.


http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/oli ... l1iJICN5ww

Link brought me to an empty page on Harvard's website.

[NoBladesNoBows]

[patentlitigatrix]

I feel like Semper is trolling on us.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I mean it's a nice thought, but stay woke. Law students estimate their individual chances of divorce 9% lower than the general population, but are 12% more likely to get one.


http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/oli ... l1iJICN5ww

Isn't that just Harvard law students, though? I mean...

[First Offense]

I absolutely categorically disagree that having close friendships and professional relationships with LS colleagues is what leads to cheating when it happens in those circumstances.

I can't say that you didn't have these experiences in law school, but I still don't think they're about law school.

And you are absolutely entirely wrong that I have any law school friendships that my husband would be hurt by/object to the extent of. Don't extrapolate from your own relationship.

My experience is exactly the same. My wife doesn't do law school stuff, I have law school friends, and it's never been an issue.

The unrelenting siren song of the hot law school female has Also never been an issue for me not any of the married students I know. Semper is extrapolating his own struggles on the population at large without basis.

[TheSpanishMain]

I watch her poop

Wait, why are you watching your wife poop? Are you standing watch in case a bear attacks?

[carmensandiego]

I watch her poop

Wait, why are you watching your wife poop? Are you standing watch in case a bear attacks?

Ahahaha. If my SO watched me poop, I couldn't do it. Props to Semper's wife for not having stage freight, I guess.

[TLSModBot]

I watch her poop

Wait, why are you watching your wife poop? Are you standing watch in case a bear attacks?

How else can you be sure she's not cheating on you after sharing so many meaningful experiences with the toilet?

[SemperLegal]

I mean it's a nice thought, but stay woke. Law students estimate their individual chances of divorce 9% lower than the general population, but are 12% more likely to get one.


http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/oli ... l1iJICN5ww

Isn't that just Harvard law students, though? I mean...

Sorry about the dead link. NoBlades found the article, I don't think the survey was limited to Harvard, just published there.

[SemperLegal]

I watch her poop

Wait, why are you watching your wife poop? Are you standing watch in case a bear attacks?

How else can you be sure she's not cheating on you after sharing so many meaningful experiences with the toilet?

That should have be in the past imperfect, it's not an ongoing thing. Just living in a few single baths and us constantly being in a rush/into food has led to a few... regrettable intrusions.

Actually, screw it. I'm going to stand up for my honest and not-at-all-weird lifestyle, we've both occasionally asked the other to keep us company during a long, less stinky poop, especially if the need arose in the middle of a conversation.

[DrRighteous]

Actually, screw it. I'm going to stand up for my honest and not-at-all-weird lifestyle, we've both occasionally asked the other to keep us company during a long, less stinky poop, especially if the need arose in the middle of a conversation.

This is hilarious but seriously does your wife know you're posting about her pooping on tls?