Top 5 Student at T14 Taking Questions Forum

[t-14orbust]

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way they point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

One thing I'll emphasize, though - in my view, it's much more important to write clearly than to write "well". An exam that's hard to understand makes the reader think that the writer doesn't under the material. Further, you lose points when you write unintelligibly, because readers may not recognize that you are making a particular point. Focus more on writing crisp sentences and well-organized paragraphs than making masterpieces of the English language.

very interested

[foundingfather]

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way they point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

One thing I'll emphasize, though - in my view, it's much more important to write clearly than to write "well". An exam that's hard to understand makes the reader think that the writer doesn't under the material. Further, you lose points when you write unintelligibly, because readers may not recognize that you are making a particular point. Focus more on writing crisp sentences and well-organized paragraphs than making masterpieces of the English language.

very interested

+1

[canoe]

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way my exams point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

One thing I'll emphasize, though - in my view, it's much more important to write clearly than to write "well". An exam that's hard to understand makes the reader think that the writer doesn't under the material. Further, you lose points when you write unintelligibly, because readers may not recognize that you are making a particular point. Focus more on writing crisp sentences and well-organized paragraphs than making masterpieces of the English language.

interested and my gawd what did you do to potentially land yourself in #1 at CCN? Pass along your wisdom, oh wise one. In all seriousness though, was your lifestyle anything like the OP's?

[M458]

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way my exams point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

Might want to double-check your school's honor code before doing that.

[throwaway186]

Also, I'll try to dig up Desert Fox's post of an "A" exam at a T14. For now, know that it is a pretty telling example of how writing style/skill can be utterly secondary to the legal analysis (for grading purposes).

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way my exams point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

One thing I'll emphasize, though - in my view, it's much more important to write clearly than to write "well". An exam that's hard to understand makes the reader think that the writer doesn't under the material. Further, you lose points when you write unintelligibly, because readers may not recognize that you are making a particular point. Focus more on writing crisp sentences and well-organized paragraphs than making masterpieces of the English language.

interested and my gawd what did you do to potentially land yourself in #1 at CCN? Pass along your wisdom, oh wise one. In all seriousness though, was your lifestyle anything like the OP's?

I did not follow OP's approach. I handwrote notes and only did one round of outlining, ending with about a 40-page searchable beast with headers and only brief case summaries. No supplements because most of my professors hardly taught BLL. Mostly I focused on connecting the material across parts of the course and learning my professor's style of analysis: does he think first of efficiency? Policy? Doctrine? All the above? What's the order of operations for resolving a thorny problem? What are the hard problems that I know I'll see? What are the easier problems? I will agree wholeheartedly with OP's advice to take as many practice tests as possible.

My work schedule was generally: wake up at 8 to have breakfast with the gf before she went to work, do an hour of whatever reading for class that day that I didn't get to the night before, go to class from like 10am-3pm or whatever, read for tomorrow over lunch in the library. Dick around until 6 or 7. Read until 10 or 11. Play some games, watch some TV, sleep, repeat. Finals schedule was basically work work work, though, starting about two weeks before the first exam of the term.

But I'll also agree with OP's statement that some of it just comes down to how good you are at issue-spotting. I'm not going to go so far as to say that I "issue spot in everyday life." But from a young age I was just naturally good at taking tests. Apologies if this is masturbatory; I've been trying to stay out of this thread until I had something useful to add. I plan on writing an exam-writing guide later this summer, going into a little more depth on writing and analysis than guides like thesealocust's.

There's another dude in my class who also did very well; I'm not sure which of us has the higher GPA. We've talked about 1L and studying a few times. Our biggest point of agreement was that managing the stress is absolutely crucial to doing well. Friends of ours who freaked out and studied 24/7 for a month and a half leading up to exams were burnt out bundles of nerves when exam day hit, and there's just no way you can write a great exam under those conditions. It sounds like OP found his own solution to this by doing work to relax - I wish I were like this, but it's just not me. To echo ray and others above: you need to know yourself and find what works for you.

I would be happy to share some of mine. Potential #1 in my class at CCN. I'm not sure which way my exams point w/r/t whether good writing matters for law school exam grading. Let me know if there is interest and I'll put them in a pastebin or something.

Might want to double-check your school's honor code before doing that.

I checked and didn't find anything about sharing old exam answers, but you're right. Let me think about how to proceed.

[Power_of_Facing]

I checked and didn't find anything about sharing old exam answers, but you're right. Let me think about how to proceed.

Very, very interested in this.

[racejudicata15]

I asked this earlier, but I think it got lost in the top 20% rationalizing their social lives.

You mentioned doing LEEWS as a 0L. Did you use that method on exams? Do you feel it helped?

I am going to answer your and emu42’s question at the same time. I don’t even remember what the LEEWS method is, so I can’t say that I methodically used it on an exam. I read a bunch of books about how to take law school exams (like LEEWS, Getting to Maybe, etc.), and in the end, I thought they were all saying the same thing just with different acronyms. Basically, you need to always spot/name the issue, provide the rule, analyze how the rule applies (arguing both sides), and make some sort of conclusion. I don’t follow any particular strict method when taking an exam (like IRAC or something). It’s just sort of free flow. I can get away with not having a particular method because I am naturally good at issue-spotting. If you are really disorganized or consistently forget to do something (like analyze the issue from both sides or support your conclusion), it might be worthwhile to use a particular method. I apparently don’t need a set method, so I don’t use it.
LEEWS is way too expensive (and the narrator pretty cocky if I am remembering correctly), but in the end I think it was worthwhile. I think the best part of LEEWS is that it very slowly goes through a practice torts exam. I think it was helpful to generally know the structure of a law school exam/what a law school exam looked like. It helped me understand what was expected of me in law school; I wasn’t flying blind from day one.
I used CALI fairly regularly, but usually as a last resource. I would only use it if I thought I needed more practice in a particular area after doing practice exams, the E&E practice problems, and Law in a Flash. Sometimes I would use it if a certain area of law was particularly confusing, but as I said before, the quality of the CALI lessons varies greatly.

[t-14orbust]

I checked and didn't find anything about sharing old exam answers, but you're right. Let me think about how to proceed.

please post back here when you write your guide to exam-taking. congrats on your phenomenal grades!

[foundingfather]

I checked and didn't find anything about sharing old exam answers, but you're right. Let me think about how to proceed.

please post back here when you write your guide to exam-taking. congrats on your phenomenal grades!

i would love to read this as well. please bump this thread when you have done so. thanks!

[racejudicata15]

If you had to identify one over-the-top study habit of yours -- e.g. making triplicate outlines for each class, taking every practice exam you can get your paws on, CALI, LEEWs (whatever those acronyms stand for) -- as most vital to your success, which one would it be and why?

Oooh, this is a great question.

I'm going to cheat and say it is a tie between outlining and taking practice exams. I have no freakin' clue what is going on in any of my classes until I have made my first outline. You learn everything so quickly and from disparate sources (casebook, class notes, supplements) that I find it is a waste of time to even try to understand it until I start outlining. Doing the second and third round of outlining is usually fairly quick and easy once I have my master outline done. And, as someone stated earlier in this thread, re-outlining is a great way to make sure you retain the material.

Taking practice is exams is absolutely necessary. You don't have to take as many as you can get your hands on, but you should take several. First, taking practice exams is a great way to initially learn the law and later double check that you actually understand how the law works. This is pounded over and over on TLS, but just "knowing" the law is never enough. (I actually hate the term "knowing the law." Knowing what federal rule of evidence 404 says is not knowing the law. That's memorizing. Knowing the law is understanding how 404 plays out in the real world. Not everyone at a T14 knows the law going into the exam because they don't know how to apply it. But I digress). Second, taking practice exams is a great way to get inside your professor's head. My crimpro professor had like 10 practice exams available. By like the fifth exam, I realized that there was going to be a car that was searched on my exam. So, I made sure I knew all the ways the cops can search a car without a warrant. And sure enough, there was a car on my exam. Easy points. Finally, taking practice exams saves time. Once I've struggled through an issue and written about it in a practice exam, I have like a mini-paragraph saved in my head. For example, I know exactly what I am going to type if I spot a 2-207 issue on my exam. It saves me time on the exam because I don't have to think about what I will say; I already just know.

[And, btw, CALI is an free online resource that lets you take mini-online lessons with multiple choice and essay questions in doctrinal subject matters. The quality varies depending on the topic and the author. For example, the civpro CALI lessons are awful. LEEWS is a course/instructional tape on how to take law school exams.]

Thanks.

Follow-up questions: When in your maiden 1L term did you start the outlining and the taking of practice exams? What were your reasons for beginning these processes when you did?

What strategic changes to your study methods did you make (if any) between 1L terms? between 1L and 2L years?

During my Fall semester 1L year, I think I started outlining around the halfway mark. I spent the first half of the semester just trying to understand how law school works. For every semester afterwards, I've started outlining from the first week. At that point, I knew what a successful outline looked like, so there was no reason to wait. Plus, it takes forever for me to outline, so I have to start early.

I usually don't take practice exams until like the last month before finals. There are a finite amount of practice exams, and I don't want to take them too early because I will miss issues that I haven't learned yet and it just seems like a waste of a good practice exams.

I really only made two strategic changes to my study method: 1) I stopped relying on supplements so much. This was probably because I got better at reading cases and understanding what was important, so I didn't need supplements to give me the BLL anymore.and 2) I started memorizing cases. On TLS and throughout my first year of law school, people told me that "knowing" the law was more important than knowing case names. I think my torts professor actually explicitly said that. (This may "out" me), but during my 2L year, I had a professor who said knowing case names was essential to doing well on her exam and to doing well in the legal world. So I started learning all the cases so that I could apply and distinguish them on the exam. After using cases extensively on this professor's exam, I could never turn back. I think the more universal advice is to just know your professor- do they care about cases and case names? I personally think an exam is more impressive if it can cite to cases and say how the hypo differs from that case, but if you don't study a lot of cases or your prof doesn't give traditional issue-spotting exams, this would be a massive waste of time.

[racejudicata15]

Great thread! I have heard a few people say that grades don't really matter for PI law. Have you found that your excellent grades have afforded you more PI opportunities than you might have had otherwise? Thanks!

I think it is true that grades do not matter as much for public interest, but I would be lying if I said my grades didn't help me. I'd still get offers even if I didn't think i convincingly conveyed my interest in my particular public interest area. I also think my grades were helpful for landing a decent amount of interviews at EJW.

I'm working at what is largely considered the most "prestigious" organization in my field, and I doubt I would have been able to get it without my grades. (Random soap box: choosing to work here based solely on prestige was a huge mistake. I think I could have gotten a much better experience at a different organization. Moral of the story- don't be a prestige-whore. Go to the place where you think you will learn the most and be the most happy).

[pom fig]

Thanks for this racejudicata15. This is a very helpful post.

[politics89]

Bumping this because I'd love to hear what strategies worked for other people at the top of their class.

[Kobe24]

Hi,

0L, most likely will be attending Wisconsin Law in the Fall. Therefore, It is imperative that I do extremely well in class. My goal is to be top 10-15%, and to make law review.

Unfortunately, I haven't did any summer prep, such as reading any of those prep books or studying any black letter law. I plan to treat law school like a 60 hour work week this first year at least, no drinking, just exercising to keep my sanity and health.

Hopefully this will provide me with the desired results. Wisconsin's employment statistics are pretty much "top 20%" class rank or go home.

I was never organized in undergrad: so outlining will be a new challenge for me, what text should I use to give me a leg up?

Did practice exams help you (who is grading them lol?)

How long does it take you to get the hang of law school and to prepare for the class, understand the material, and ultimately take an exam?

If you have a short and sweet outline, I will greatly appreciate it. Those that do exceptionally well in your class, did they put the time in, or are you all just naturally more intelligent/suitable for law school success.

Thanks!

[Nebby]

Putting the time in and learning how to take law school exams are how you get good grades--and luck.

[Kobe24]

Putting the time in and learning how to take law school exams are how you get good grades--and luck.

I can dedicate the time. Any advice for "learning how to take the exams?" Besides, taking a few and tanking on them, just to realize you re pretty much screwed based off 1 year.

(First generation college-grad) so there is virtually no personal connections for me to fall back on/readily accessible network for employment. (networking is important, and I get that now, so I plan to put forth a concerted effort here as well).

And thanks for even putting this thread together.

[star fox]

I was never organized in undergrad: so outlining will be a new challenge for me, what text should I use to give me a leg up?

Did practice exams help you (who is grading them lol?)

How long does it take you to get the hang of law school and to prepare for the class, understand the material, and ultimately take an exam?

If you have a short and sweet outline, I will greatly appreciate it. Those that do exceptionally well in your class, did they put the time in, or are you all just naturally more intelligent/suitable for law school success.

1. E&E's mainly. Other supplements work too. You want to be able to nail down and understand the BLL so using these early on is helpful for later on.

2. Yes, practice exams are helpful. There's really no other way to train your brain in issue spotting on long and complicated fact patterns and to apply the BLL that you and everyone else in your class will have nailed down come exam time. Nobody "grades" them. Some Profs give out optional mid-terms and they/the TA may give you feedback. If there's a model answer provided for past exams than you can compare your answer to that and see what issues you missed and how to refine your answer to start to look more like an "A" exam. Other than that, you can go over a practice exam with a group or just individually until you start to get the hang of them.

3. The first few weeks you'll mainly just be reading cases and going through the Socratic-method in your classes. This may feel unusual at first, but realize that memorizing the facts of a case so you can perform really well in a cold call is worthless. Always focus on the bigger picture. You can't really do anything early on to help you with the exam in the end. Looking at how your professor writes exams early on can be helpful - but that's just good to know if they use the pretty standard "race-horse issue spotter" (basically long fact-patterns with a general question like "what claims can be brought by/against xyz and what defenses will they raise") or if they mix it up by throwing things in like policy questions, multiple choice, short-answer, or whatever. Using E&Es throughout the term will help you understand the material and apply particular elements of the law to targeted facts. I can't stress enough - do not worry about cold calling. It doesn't matter. You probably won't be able to take a full length practice exam until you've covered the vast majority of the course's substance, so don't really worry about until some point in November for your fall semester. Just early on focus on what your professor seems to think is important and nailing down the black letter law.

4. Doing well is going to be a combination of your natural ability to write exams well (see various guides on here, maybe skim through Getting to Maybe), how well you understand the material so that you spot issues quickly including the more hidden issues and apply the appropriate analyses, and luck. Hard work can definitely move you in the right direction and don't believe any hype that everyone in law school is just super-vigilant and studies 12 hours a day. Most of us are pretty stealthily lazy.

[Kobe24]

I was never organized in undergrad: so outlining will be a new challenge for me, what text should I use to give me a leg up?

Did practice exams help you (who is grading them lol?)

How long does it take you to get the hang of law school and to prepare for the class, understand the material, and ultimately take an exam?

If you have a short and sweet outline, I will greatly appreciate it. Those that do exceptionally well in your class, did they put the time in, or are you all just naturally more intelligent/suitable for law school success.

1. E&E's mainly. Other supplements work too. You want to be able to nail down and understand the BLL so using these early on is helpful for later on.

2. Yes, practice exams are helpful. There's really no other way to train your brain in issue spotting on long and complicated fact patterns and to apply the BLL that you and everyone else in your class will have nailed down come exam time. Nobody "grades" them. Some Profs give out optional mid-terms and they/the TA may give you feedback. If there's a model answer provided for past exams than you can compare your answer to that and see what issues you missed and how to refine your answer to start to look more like an "A" exam. Other than that, you can go over a practice exam with a group or just individually until you start to get the hang of them.

3. The first few weeks you'll mainly just be reading cases and going through the Socratic-method in your classes. This may feel unusual at first, but realize that memorizing the facts of a case so you can perform really well in a cold call is worthless. Always focus on the bigger picture. You can't really do anything early on to help you with the exam in the end. Looking at how your professor writes exams early on can be helpful - but that's just good to know if they use the pretty standard "race-horse issue spotter" (basically long fact-patterns with a general question like "what claims can be brought by/against xyz and what defenses will they raise") or if they mix it up by throwing things in like policy questions, multiple choice, short-answer, or whatever. Using E&Es throughout the term will help you understand the material and apply particular elements of the law to targeted facts. I can't stress enough - do not worry about cold calling. It doesn't matter. You probably won't be able to take a full length practice exam until you've covered the vast majority of the course's substance, so don't really worry about until some point in November for your fall semester. Just early on focus on what your professor seems to think is important and nailing down the black letter law.

4. Doing well is going to be a combination of your natural ability to write exams well (see various guides on here, maybe skim through Getting to Maybe), how well you understand the material so that you spot issues quickly including the more hidden issues and apply the appropriate analyses, and luck. Hard work can definitely move you in the right direction and don't believe any hype that everyone in law school is just super-vigilant and studies 12 hours a day. Most of us are pretty stealthily lazy.

Thanks again! Would I be correct if I say that I would read the given material, take notes/outline, go over the E and E text to help simplify the explanation (rinse and repeat) come exam time hopefully I would have it down and with a little luck, I could get a coveted A here and there. (LOL and you got into T14 and are at the top of your class, for those of us stuck in "named top 30" but very second tier reality, we kinda have to freak out a little and dwell in the library :/

[bearsfan23]

The only T14 I know of that ranks is UVA, so OP either goes to UVA or is lying.

If your going to brag about how much of a gunner you are, don't try to hide it by being anonymous

[Robb]

The only T14 I know of that ranks is UVA, so OP either goes to UVA or is lying.

If your going to brag about how much of a gunner you are, don't try to hide it by being anonymous

There are definitely ways to know your rank at at least some top schools for at least some people. At Chicago, for example, the top ten students after 1L know they are among the top 10 students because they get a special designation and go to special dinners. There are also certain grades that would assure you that you're in a certain grade range (ex, someone with a 181.5+ average can be pretty sure they're in the top 5 students here, considering the cutoff for top 10 is reportedly somewhere between 180.8 and 181).

[rpupkin]

The only T14 I know of that ranks is UVA, so OP either goes to UVA or is lying.

That may be the official policy, but most of the T14 at least unofficially ranks. The top students (and the profs writing those students rec letters for clerkships) seem to know who the top 3-5 students are at a lot of these schools. OP doesn't necessarily go to UVA.

[I<3ScholarlySweets!]

Do you masturbate or have sex with women?

[starry eyed]

I was never organized in undergrad: so outlining will be a new challenge for me, what text should I use to give me a leg up?

Did practice exams help you (who is grading them lol?)

How long does it take you to get the hang of law school and to prepare for the class, understand the material, and ultimately take an exam?

If you have a short and sweet outline, I will greatly appreciate it. Those that do exceptionally well in your class, did they put the time in, or are you all just naturally more intelligent/suitable for law school success.

1. E&E's mainly. Other supplements work too. You want to be able to nail down and understand the BLL so using these early on is helpful for later on.

2. Yes, practice exams are helpful. There's really no other way to train your brain in issue spotting on long and complicated fact patterns and to apply the BLL that you and everyone else in your class will have nailed down come exam time. Nobody "grades" them. Some Profs give out optional mid-terms and they/the TA may give you feedback. If there's a model answer provided for past exams than you can compare your answer to that and see what issues you missed and how to refine your answer to start to look more like an "A" exam. Other than that, you can go over a practice exam with a group or just individually until you start to get the hang of them.

3. The first few weeks you'll mainly just be reading cases and going through the Socratic-method in your classes. This may feel unusual at first, but realize that memorizing the facts of a case so you can perform really well in a cold call is worthless. Always focus on the bigger picture. You can't really do anything early on to help you with the exam in the end. Looking at how your professor writes exams early on can be helpful - but that's just good to know if they use the pretty standard "race-horse issue spotter" (basically long fact-patterns with a general question like "what claims can be brought by/against xyz and what defenses will they raise") or if they mix it up by throwing things in like policy questions, multiple choice, short-answer, or whatever. Using E&Es throughout the term will help you understand the material and apply particular elements of the law to targeted facts. I can't stress enough - do not worry about cold calling. It doesn't matter. You probably won't be able to take a full length practice exam until you've covered the vast majority of the course's substance, so don't really worry about until some point in November for your fall semester. Just early on focus on what your professor seems to think is important and nailing down the black letter law.

4. Doing well is going to be a combination of your natural ability to write exams well (see various guides on here, maybe skim through Getting to Maybe), how well you understand the material so that you spot issues quickly including the more hidden issues and apply the appropriate analyses, and luck. Hard work can definitely move you in the right direction and don't believe any hype that everyone in law school is just super-vigilant and studies 12 hours a day. Most of us are pretty stealthily lazy.

damn, impressive post

[First Offense]

The only T14 I know of that ranks is UVA, so OP either goes to UVA or is lying.

If your going to brag about how much of a gunner you are, don't try to hide it by being anonymous

UVA doesn't officially rank, and certainly doesn't publish it, unless accidentally by sending an e-mail to everyone on the listserv with their grades and identifying details.

Still, even if they don't, you'd know if you're 3.9+ you're probably top 5.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The only T14 I know of that ranks is UVA, so OP either goes to UVA or is lying.

If your going to brag about how much of a gunner you are, don't try to hide it by being anonymous

Do you masturbate or have sex with women?

Don't derail a helpful thread.