Do You Regret Going to Law School? Forum

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I am really curious as to the backgrounds of all these misanthropes. Upper-middle class upbringing?

Probably. And also probably young. If you are at a T14 for nearly free, you have big law, and you're this negative: a) what were you thinking when you went to law school? b) do you realize that there is boring, banal crap in every job, and even running a cider business would suck in many ways.

Although, if you can find a business that will be profitable and your genuinely enjoy, running it would be a good option. Good luck.

[06102016]

..

[Kronk]

I am really curious as to the backgrounds of all these misanthropes. Upper-middle class upbringing?

Probably. And also probably young. If you are at a T14 for nearly free, you have big law, and you're this negative: a) what were you thinking when you went to law school? b) do you realize that there is boring, banal crap in every job, and even running a cider business would suck in many ways.

Although, if you can find a business that will be profitable and your genuinely enjoy, running it would be a good option. Good luck.

Entitlement and and shit has nothing to do with it.

Except for maybe the first few weeks, the experience of law school is draining, miserable, dry, overbearing, and oversaturated with the same shit over and over again. Every class is taught the same, dumbass way, counterintuitive (and counter to enjoyment and proper learning). Then when you get out in the field you realize that the job isn't as exciting as you think it's going to be (there are some exceptions, PD jobs are legitimately enjoyable for the most part), and you realize you just went through miserable school so you could have a miserable job, when you could've just had the miserable job to begin with, minus the debt and the three years.

And yes, I realize there is banal, boring crap in every job.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I'm a 1L. I'm sure I'm older than you. I find law school really interesting. This entire year I have been beyond thrilled with the decision. I have a 1L big law SA even though I'm at a lower-ranked school. I've worked several years since college, and in many ways the quality of life of those jobs was not better than big law. (based on what I can see; I will see more first hand this summer)

If you can be a multi-million dollar entrepreneur doing something you love, more power to you. Yes that would be amazing. But that is still a service job. You serve customers. You court corporate allies (distributors/partners).

Basically, its just not true that law is shitty for everyone. The key is finding a job that suits your personality/ability, and going from there.

[portaprokoss]

Basically, its just not true that law is shitty for everyone

This is reassuring.

[RELIC]

I am really curious as to the backgrounds of all these misanthropes. Upper-middle class upbringing?

Probably. And also probably young. If you are at a T14 for nearly free, you have big law, and you're this negative: a) what were you thinking when you went to law school? b) do you realize that there is boring, banal crap in every job, and even running a cider business would suck in many ways.

Although, if you can find a business that will be profitable and your genuinely enjoy, running it would be a good option. Good luck.

I am from a lower class area/family and grew up in a very poor neighborhood. I also worked for about 5 five years in between UG and law school. I echo the regrets of the other posters in this thread. I got sick of my 8-7 job and decided to chase the brass ring that is law school. However, I was extremely uninformed as to what the actual practice of law and the daily life of a lawyer was like. Now I have landed big law and racked up over 200k in debt, so my future is pretty much set whether I like it or not.

So I had long hours and a ton of stress in my last job but at least I had no debt. One of the things that kept me motivated in that environment was putting money into savings and IRAs and knowing that I had enough to quit at any time if I wanted to. Now I am stuck with a mountain of debt and I know I can't leave this job even if I really need to.

All of this for a little more prestige...

[cinephile]

I had a conversation with a professor of mine the other day, that I don't really think he enjoyed (and he seemed to act like no one had ever said this to him before), about how I feel like everything in law school is fraudulent. There's really not that much material that you need to learn in any doctrinal class. And so long as you're not getting cold-called/that doesn't factor into your grades, you can avoid reading for the entire semester, you can even avoid paying attention in class or even attending if you want. Everything you need to know can be learned from studying for a few solid days before the exam. So what is the entire semester for? Why go through the charade? It's a ridiculous process and that depresses the hell out of me, the fact that I don't feel as though I'm "learning" anything at all - just memorizing a handful of rules a few days before a test and bringing in a good outline (that I certainly didn't create) in case I need a reminder. And that I can get good grades on an exam concerning a subject about which I feel like I know nothing. That friends who go to med school act like my education is similarly rigorous and that makes me feel bad somehow because I'm sitting here thinking, this isn't an education - this is a joke, because I'm pretty sure you can't sit through a med school class watching netflix on mute with subtitles. And then having a a legal job where it looks like you have some measure of responsibility, but you're really doing something that doesn't require a legal education, the kind of thing you could've done straight out of college. It just feels so meaningless and I wonder why am I wasting my time and money on a profession that won't ever "fulfill" me? And why didn't I realize that fulfillment was a real thing until now? Because unlike some law students, I worked for four years before coming here - at a job that paid next to nothing but that I really enjoyed. And I came here hoping to earn more and now I realize that money doesn't matter to me as much as I thought it did. And all of it bores me, but after two years, it makes sense to just continue and pick up the credential before returning (probably) to my old line of work. But I guess this is something a person has to go through. I wouldn't have known it wasn't for me unless I tried it. And anyway, now I'm taking regular grad school classes in a subject that I enjoy where the credit will transfer over, so I'm not half so bored as I was before. But still, it all seems silly to me.

[Kronk]

I'm a 1L.

Not sure I needed to read after that. Report back after your first year as a lawyer at your BigLaw firm.

Everyone? No. But the stats doing lie. The depression rates for students in law school vs the general population is astounding, and it gets worse with practice in corporate, not better.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I'm a 1L.

Not sure I needed to read after that. Report back after your first year as a lawyer at your BigLaw firm.

Everyone? No. But the stats doing lie. The depression rates for students in law school vs the general population is astounding, and it gets worse with practice in corporate, not better.

I will report back. A couple thoughts:

-depression: there is a huge correlation/causation problem here. The depression rates for basically all knowledge professions are high, because smart people tend to be more depressed. The type of person who chooses to be a lawyer is almost definitely more likely to be depressed than average, even if you make that person a circus clown or a carnival worker.

-law school: my understanding is that almost everyone thinks 1L is the worst year. A lot of my classmates say how much they hate the law/being in law school. I'm just saying that not everyone will feel that way.

-do you regret X?: a thread like this is likely to attract the most negative people possible. If you made this thread on any forum "Do you regret becoming a plumber?" "Do you regret becoming an actor?" You would get a lot of negative responses.

-debt: I'm in school on a full ride+books+stipend. A lot of people point to the debt as the reason that they hate law school/law. They feel that they have no choice but to do big law to pay it off. I think there is a lot of truth to this pessimism, and I personally think it's crazy to take on 150k+ in debt to go to law school. Even YHS I don't think I would do that. My guess is that if people regretting the choice listed their reasons, debt would be #1. I've been really lucky so far in incurring almost zero debt, and in my view if a person wants to be a lawyer this is a great way to go.

[portaprokoss]

It just feels so meaningless and I wonder why am I wasting my time and money on a profession that won't ever "fulfill" me? And why didn't I realize that fulfillment was a real thing until now?

Preach it, brother.

depression: there is a huge correlation/causation problem here. The depression rates for basically all knowledge professions are high, because smart people tend to be more depressed. The type of person who chooses to be a lawyer is almost definitely more likely to be depressed than average, even if you make that person a circus clown or a carnival worker.

No. Law has the highest depression rate out of all 151 professions monitored. Further, students entering the law school are no more depressed than the general population. As far as "knowledge professions" are concerned, there have been studies that show that lawyers are significantly more depressed, dissatisfied, and unhappy than doctors, professors, etc. I suggest you read "How Lawyers Lose Their Way: A Profession Fails Its Creative Minds" by Stefancic & Delgado: http://www.amazon.com/How-Lawyers-Lose- ... 168&sr=1-2 , which sets forth the specific studies I'm referencing.

[Kronk]

I will report back. A couple thoughts:

-depression: there is a huge correlation/causation problem here. The depression rates for basically all knowledge professions are high, because smart people tend to be more depressed. The type of person who chooses to be a lawyer is almost definitely more likely to be depressed than average, even if you make that person a circus clown or a carnival worker.

Can't really comment on your other things except to say they had no effect for me. But as for this, that's specifically controlled for in those studies. They study the same group of people entering law school and exiting. They show that the rate of depression prior to law school of those students are only slightly higher than the national average, and it spikes thereafter.

There is little doubt that for many, depression begins in law school. One study of law students found they suffered from depression at the same rate as the general population before entering law school. Just two months into the school year, however, their negative symptom levels had increased dramatically. By the spring of their first year, 32% of the same law students were depressed. By the spring of their third year, the number had risen to 40%. Two years after graduation, 17% of the students – about twice the rate of depression experienced by the general population – were still depressed. Such elevated levels of depression have been corroborated by later studies.

It doesn’t get much better when one graduates and enters the job market. A John Hopkins study looked at 104 occupations to determine which ones had the highest incidence of depression. Lawyers topped the list and were found to suffer from depression at a rate of 3.6 times that of other profession studies. Other studies have found that about 20 percent of all lawyers struggle with depression.

[chadbrochill]

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[ManoftheHour]

I had a conversation with a professor of mine the other day, that I don't really think he enjoyed (and he seemed to act like no one had ever said this to him before), about how I feel like everything in law school is fraudulent. There's really not that much material that you need to learn in any doctrinal class. And so long as you're not getting cold-called/that doesn't factor into your grades, you can avoid reading for the entire semester, you can even avoid paying attention in class or even attending if you want. Everything you need to know can be learned from studying for a few solid days before the exam. So what is the entire semester for? Why go through the charade? It's a ridiculous process and that depresses the hell out of me, the fact that I don't feel as though I'm "learning" anything at all - just memorizing a handful of rules a few days before a test and bringing in a good outline (that I certainly didn't create) in case I need a reminder. And that I can get good grades on an exam concerning a subject about which I feel like I know nothing. That friends who go to med school act like my education is similarly rigorous and that makes me feel bad somehow because I'm sitting here thinking, this isn't an education - this is a joke, because I'm pretty sure you can't sit through a med school class watching netflix on mute with subtitles. And then having a a legal job where it looks like you have some measure of responsibility, but you're really doing something that doesn't require a legal education, the kind of thing you could've done straight out of college. It just feels so meaningless and I wonder why am I wasting my time and money on a profession that won't ever "fulfill" me? And why didn't I realize that fulfillment was a real thing until now? Because unlike some law students, I worked for four years before coming here - at a job that paid next to nothing but that I really enjoyed. And I came here hoping to earn more and now I realize that money doesn't matter to me as much as I thought it did. And all of it bores me, but after two years, it makes sense to just continue and pick up the credential before returning (probably) to my old line of work. But I guess this is something a person has to go through. I wouldn't have known it wasn't for me unless I tried it. And anyway, now I'm taking regular grad school classes in a subject that I enjoy where the credit will transfer over, so I'm not half so bored as I was before. But still, it all seems silly to me.

Where'd you go (you don't have to be too specific. T-10, T-25, MVPB would suffice) and which year are you in?

I'm just curious because this is really depressing, yet, I can kind of see myself agreeing with you three/four years later.

[bizzybone1313]

I had a conversation with a professor of mine the other day, that I don't really think he enjoyed (and he seemed to act like no one had ever said this to him before), about how I feel like everything in law school is fraudulent. There's really not that much material that you need to learn in any doctrinal class. And so long as you're not getting cold-called/that doesn't factor into your grades, you can avoid reading for the entire semester, you can even avoid paying attention in class or even attending if you want. Everything you need to know can be learned from studying for a few solid days before the exam. So what is the entire semester for? Why go through the charade? It's a ridiculous process and that depresses the hell out of me, the fact that I don't feel as though I'm "learning" anything at all - just memorizing a handful of rules a few days before a test and bringing in a good outline (that I certainly didn't create) in case I need a reminder. And that I can get good grades on an exam concerning a subject about which I feel like I know nothing. That friends who go to med school act like my education is similarly rigorous and that makes me feel bad somehow because I'm sitting here thinking, this isn't an education - this is a joke, because I'm pretty sure you can't sit through a med school class watching netflix on mute with subtitles. And then having a a legal job where it looks like you have some measure of responsibility, but you're really doing something that doesn't require a legal education, the kind of thing you could've done straight out of college. It just feels so meaningless and I wonder why am I wasting my time and money on a profession that won't ever "fulfill" me? And why didn't I realize that fulfillment was a real thing until now? Because unlike some law students, I worked for four years before coming here - at a job that paid next to nothing but that I really enjoyed. And I came here hoping to earn more and now I realize that money doesn't matter to me as much as I thought it did. And all of it bores me, but after two years, it makes sense to just continue and pick up the credential before returning (probably) to my old line of work. But I guess this is something a person has to go through. I wouldn't have known it wasn't for me unless I tried it. And anyway, now I'm taking regular grad school classes in a subject that I enjoy where the credit will transfer over, so I'm not half so bored as I was before. But still, it all seems silly to me.

Where'd you go (you don't have to be too specific. T-10, T-25, MVPB would suffice) and which year are you in?

I'm just curious because this is really depressing, yet, I can kind of see myself agreeing with you three/four years later.

It is gonna be real depressing when she tells you where she attends. Your tiers are a little off.

[bizzybone1313]

For those who regret LS, I'm interested in what would wish you instead after UG with law aspirations? Go back for a STEM degree? Rad mentioned masters in accounting but I heard Big4 accountants work similar hours for much less salary (albeit without the debt)

I worked at a Big Four. Yep. That's pretty much spot on. I was fortunate and did consulting for them. But the people who actually worked in tax and audit worked a shit load. My hours varied from 40-55. Most of the time I probably averaged around 45. I was making about $60K. Pretty sweet gig. I had real cool bosses, but I have always wanted to be an attorney.

[Kronk]

[06102016]

..

[Kronk]

For those posting that they regret it, do you think your feelings might change if/when you find a different role in the legal profession? I understand biglaw is terrible and even law school itself can be rough for a lot of people, but I've met a lot of people who really enjoy their work in the law.

Is there something to be said for finding the right fit in terms of your legal job or do you guys think this is mostly flame?

For sure. I actually had a BigLaw gig that I reneged on for this very reason. I think practice can be enjoyable in the right circumstances, and with the right qualify of life balance. However, the 1L that was posting above is right to a certain extent. There are some people like (presumably) him that are totally fine working 60-70 hour weeks. They enjoy the work, and they don't have other things they want to be doing. They can be very happy in a corporate career.

But that's not for me. I think I can be very happy in a different type of legal career though, definitely.

[ManoftheHour]

I had a conversation with a professor of mine the other day, that I don't really think he enjoyed (and he seemed to act like no one had ever said this to him before), about how I feel like everything in law school is fraudulent. There's really not that much material that you need to learn in any doctrinal class. And so long as you're not getting cold-called/that doesn't factor into your grades, you can avoid reading for the entire semester, you can even avoid paying attention in class or even attending if you want. Everything you need to know can be learned from studying for a few solid days before the exam. So what is the entire semester for? Why go through the charade? It's a ridiculous process and that depresses the hell out of me, the fact that I don't feel as though I'm "learning" anything at all - just memorizing a handful of rules a few days before a test and bringing in a good outline (that I certainly didn't create) in case I need a reminder. And that I can get good grades on an exam concerning a subject about which I feel like I know nothing. That friends who go to med school act like my education is similarly rigorous and that makes me feel bad somehow because I'm sitting here thinking, this isn't an education - this is a joke, because I'm pretty sure you can't sit through a med school class watching netflix on mute with subtitles. And then having a a legal job where it looks like you have some measure of responsibility, but you're really doing something that doesn't require a legal education, the kind of thing you could've done straight out of college. It just feels so meaningless and I wonder why am I wasting my time and money on a profession that won't ever "fulfill" me? And why didn't I realize that fulfillment was a real thing until now? Because unlike some law students, I worked for four years before coming here - at a job that paid next to nothing but that I really enjoyed. And I came here hoping to earn more and now I realize that money doesn't matter to me as much as I thought it did. And all of it bores me, but after two years, it makes sense to just continue and pick up the credential before returning (probably) to my old line of work. But I guess this is something a person has to go through. I wouldn't have known it wasn't for me unless I tried it. And anyway, now I'm taking regular grad school classes in a subject that I enjoy where the credit will transfer over, so I'm not half so bored as I was before. But still, it all seems silly to me.

Where'd you go (you don't have to be too specific. T-10, T-25, MVPB would suffice) and which year are you in?

I'm just curious because this is really depressing, yet, I can kind of see myself agreeing with you three/four years later.

It is gonna be real depressing when she tells you where she attends. Your tiers are a little off.

I think that speaks volumes...

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

For those posting that they regret it, do you think your feelings might change if/when you find a different role in the legal profession? I understand biglaw is terrible and even law school itself can be rough for a lot of people, but I've met a lot of people who really enjoy their work in the law.

Is there something to be said for finding the right fit in terms of your legal job or do you guys think this is mostly flame?

For sure. I actually had a BigLaw gig that I reneged on for this very reason. I think practice can be enjoyable in the right circumstances, and with the right qualify of life balance. However, the 1L that was posting above is right to a certain extent. There are some people like (presumably) him that are totally fine working 60-70 hour weeks. They enjoy the work, and they don't have other things they want to be doing. They can be very happy in a corporate career.

But that's not for me. I think I can be very happy in a different type of legal career though, definitely.

To chime back in: this is a great point. I think a big factor of whether you will like law/law school is whether you like having unstructured down time. I hate having this. When I'm working, I'm 100% focused and working. When I'm not, I'm at a movie, a baseball game, a bar, whatever, and there is a plan: meet friends at X o'clock. What I hate is home, nothing to do, staring at the ceiling. Plus I think the work is interesting. But anyone who would like to work 40 hours a week, have the entire weekend off just doing whatever, have evenings off, no real plan just figure it out, I think it is highly unlikely you would like law/law school.

I have other interests, really good friends, and enjoy other things in life, but I really don't feel comfortable unless I'm working and focused, and this is part of what I like (the structure). Also, the poster who said that in law you are a servant, that is definitely true. A person who hates the chain of command, or feels that they are "above" that kind of role, I don't think law school would be a good profession. It is a knowledge profession and also a service profession.

[Kronk]

It is gonna be real depressing when she tells you where she attends. Your tiers are a little off.

I think that speaks volumes...

Do I read this right that you guys are dismissing the post because he / she doesn't go to the caliber of school you might?

[MrAnon]

For those posting that they regret it, do you think your feelings might change if/when you find a different role in the legal profession? I understand biglaw is terrible and even law school itself can be rough for a lot of people, but I've met a lot of people who really enjoy their work in the law.

Is there something to be said for finding the right fit in terms of your legal job or do you guys think this is mostly flame?

It is mostly flame. Everyone I know who acts like life is enjoyable and enjoys his/her legal job is funding his/her existence on daddy's dime and doesn't have many concerns in life. Example. Girl who is an assistant prosecutor in a major city. She freaking loves the job. She is paid shit. She lives in the most expensive area of the city in a modern apartment and rarely cooks for herself. Two major vacas per year, one international. I think she makes 55k.

The jobs all suck. Sure biglaw has downsides, but the job above, where you are getting actual on the ground experience? the pay is shit and you have to work weekends and odd shifts (evenings) regularly, venture into bad parts of town, and risk getting blown away by someone you put away like the prosecutor in Texas recently. all the while servicing a debtload that you thought would be 90k but turns out with interest is 180k.

[sinfiery]

Except for maybe the first few weeks, the experience of law school is draining, miserable, dry, overbearing, and oversaturated with the same shit over and over again. Every class is taught the same, dumbass way, counterintuitive (and counter to enjoyment and proper learning). Then when you get out in the field you realize that the job isn't as exciting as you think it's going to be (there are some exceptions, PD jobs are legitimately enjoyable for the most part), and you realize you just went through miserable school so you could have a miserable job, when you could've just had the miserable job to begin with, minus the debt and the three years.

And yes, I realize there is banal, boring crap in every job.

According to cinephile, sounds like you don't do shit in lawschool and get handed a job where you don't really do shit either.


@Cinephile: I've always thought real fulfillment is really unlikely to come from any sort of institutional path. That's just always what I assumed so I guess that reality won't be so hard for me to bear. Biglaw is not the end of my career, just a way to pay the bills.

ETA: I figured this would be true of medschool too but wasn't sure:

It depends on your goals. If you just want to pass (70 at most schools), I think an hour a day every day might get you through (and you'll really be scraping close to the limit).

If you want honors (typically 90 and up), you'll probably have to push that to 5 hours a day (with one or two days off).

And of course, during exam weeks, I think most people hit the books really hard and just get that 3 hours of sleep

Medical school is hard. While most of the subjects are not overwhelmingly difficult, the true challenge lies in the VOLUME of the material, not the material itself.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/hig ... chool.html

same shit

[bizzybone1313]

It is gonna be real depressing when she tells you where she attends. Your tiers are a little off.

I think that speaks volumes...

Do I read this right that you guys are dismissing the post because he / she doesn't go to the caliber of school you might?

You are reading it wrong. She attends one of the most elite schools in the country and in the world, which is obviously ranked higher than the tiers ManoftheHour listed.

[Kronk]

It is gonna be real depressing when she tells you where she attends. Your tiers are a little off.

I think that speaks volumes...

Do I read this right that you guys are dismissing the post because he / she doesn't go to the caliber of school you might?

You are reading it wrong. She attends one of the most elite schools in the country and in the world, which is obviously ranked higher than the tiers ManoftheHour listed.

Gotcha.