NYU 3L relaxing... Forum

[twistedwrister]

Hi, twistedwrister. Thanks for taking questions for so long!

I was just wondering do you know many people who are interested in entering PI or federal government positions directly after graduation? And if so, how have they fared in seeking that type of employment? I know NYU has a great reputation for public interest and that a higher percentage of each class goes that route than much of the t14, but I'd love to hear any personal success (or not) stories that you have heard. Thanks!

You're welcome! Like every other legal sector job, PI and government positions have become more competitive. IIRC, none of my friends applied to DOJ Honors this year. However, several friends of mine have received PI fellowships (Skadden, etc.) this year, and a good buddy turned down an offer from BSF to work at a fed agency in D.C.

As you mentioned, NYU is more PI/gov focused than its peer schools. Here is the employment sector breakdown (% in firm/gov/PI) for CCN from the ABA

NYU: 75.1 / 2.2 / 9.2
Columbia: 81.7 / 1.7 / 3.0
Chicago: 81.3 / 2.0 / 0.5 (ONE STUDENT!)


The difference is significant, and NYU is a great school if you want to do PI, but make no mistake, most NYU students go to firms.

[sgtgrumbles]

As you mentioned, NYU is more PI/gov focused than its peer schools. Here is the employment sector breakdown (% in firm/gov/PI) for CCN from the ABA

NYU: 75.1 / 2.2 / 9.2
Columbia: 81.7 / 1.7 / 3.0
Chicago: 81.3 / 2.0 / 0.5 (ONE STUDENT!)


The difference is significant, and NYU is a great school if you want to do PI, but make no mistake, most NYU students go to firms.

Wow, thank you for posting this. It confirms my hearty suspicion that UChi would be one of the least welcoming places for me to go as a public interest-focused student. I knew the proportion of NYU students doing PI wouldn't be enormous, but ~10% is a hell of a lot higher than 0.5%.

[thisguy456]

As you mentioned, NYU is more PI/gov focused than its peer schools. Here is the employment sector breakdown (% in firm/gov/PI) for CCN from the ABA

NYU: 75.1 / 2.2 / 9.2
Columbia: 81.7 / 1.7 / 3.0
Chicago: 81.3 / 2.0 / 0.5 (ONE STUDENT!)


The difference is significant, and NYU is a great school if you want to do PI, but make no mistake, most NYU students go to firms.

Wow, thank you for posting this. It confirms my hearty suspicion that UChi would be one of the least welcoming places for me to go as a public interest-focused student. I knew the proportion of NYU students doing PI wouldn't be enormous, but ~10% is a hell of a lot higher than 0.5%.

In your opinion, do the high amount of students interested in PI at NYU coupled with their reputation for good PI placement make those types of placements easier to obtain for the average student? Is there a risk of getting shut out because so many students are interested, versus the literally 1 student at UChi who perhaps has his pick of the litter?

[Renzo]

In your opinion, do the high amount of students interested in PI at NYU coupled with their reputation for good PI placement make those types of placements easier to obtain for the average student? Is there a risk of getting shut out because so many students are interested, versus the literally 1 student at UChi who perhaps has his pick of the litter?

PI jobs don't work this way. A person who is competitive for a job at a reproductive rights organiaztion isn't going to be competitive for a job at a labor union, and vice versa. PI organizations don't want someone who generally wants to help the world in some way, they want someone who is committed to their specific cause.

[sgtgrumbles]

In your opinion, do the high amount of students interested in PI at NYU coupled with their reputation for good PI placement make those types of placements easier to obtain for the average student? Is there a risk of getting shut out because so many students are interested, versus the literally 1 student at UChi who perhaps has his pick of the litter?

PI jobs don't work this way. A person who is competitive for a job at a reproductive rights organiaztion isn't going to be competitive for a job at a labor union, and vice versa. PI organizations don't want someone who generally wants to help the world in some way, they want someone who is committed to their specific cause.

I think he meant that there might be more students competing to work in the limited number of placements/internships/whatever available in New York vs. in Chicago. If there are 20 summer internships available at Legal Aid New York and 20 at Legal Aid Chicago, but 140 students from NYU competing for the 20 in New York vs. 1 student for 20 spots in Chicago... you see what I mean. Obviously that's an oversimplification and crude or imprecise way of looking at it, and students from NYU can certainly work in Chicago and vice versa, I just meant to speculate on what I think he was getting at.

[twistedwrister]

In your opinion, do the high amount of students interested in PI at NYU coupled with their reputation for good PI placement make those types of placements easier to obtain for the average student? Is there a risk of getting shut out because so many students are interested, versus the literally 1 student at UChi who perhaps has his pick of the litter?

Yes, I think it's probably easier to get a PI job coming from NYU for several reasons. First, NYU has an extensive network of contacts/relationships with PI employers in many different sectors. PI organizations hire differently than law firms do. In general, the big firms recruit from all the top schools -- relationships with particular schools tend not to matter so much. PI organizations tend to hire people from the same schools year after year, in part because of the relationship/trust the organizations have built with the school. Of course, NYU is not the only school with a strong PI network - Harvard and Yale come immediately to mind, as does Boalt on the West Coast. Second, NYU's variety of PI relationships (from juvenile defense, to immigration law, to death penalty representation, to reproductive rights, etc.) makes it more likely that your resume will "match" what one of the employers is looking for. Also, this variety gives you the opportunity to target a particular area of PI in which you are interested. As Renzo noted, PI encompasses a lot of different things. I don't think Chicago, for example, has this kind of network. The one PI person at Chicago doesn't have the "pick of the litter" because (1) many PI organizations might not recruit at Chicago at all, (2) the ones that do might not fit with the student's background/desires. Also, for the most part, the NYU PI kids aren't competing for the same jobs -- they have different backgrounds and want to work in different areas of PI law. On the other hand, if you want to do PI in Chicago, I'd go to Chicago. UC likely has more PI contacts there than NYU does.

[Renzo]

I just asked this in a thread of it's own, but since you're here:

I'm taking prof. responsibility now. Is it a good or bad idea to sit for the MPRE in March?


Edit: question well answered in the other thread. Disregard.

[Non-Chalant1]

In your opinion, do the high amount of students interested in PI at NYU coupled with their reputation for good PI placement make those types of placements easier to obtain for the average student? Is there a risk of getting shut out because so many students are interested, versus the literally 1 student at UChi who perhaps has his pick of the litter?

Yes, I think it's probably easier to get a PI job coming from NYU for several reasons. First, NYU has an extensive network of contacts/relationships with PI employers in many different sectors. PI organizations hire differently than law firms do. In general, the big firms recruit from all the top schools -- relationships with particular schools tend not to matter so much. PI organizations tend to hire people from the same schools year after year, in part because of the relationship/trust the organizations have built with the school. Of course, NYU is not the only school with a strong PI network - Harvard and Yale come immediately to mind, as does Boalt on the West Coast. Second, NYU's variety of PI relationships (from juvenile defense, to immigration law, to death penalty representation, to reproductive rights, etc.) makes it more likely that your resume will "match" what one of the employers is looking for. Also, this variety gives you the opportunity to target a particular area of PI in which you are interested. As Renzo noted, PI encompasses a lot of different things. I don't think Chicago, for example, has this kind of network. The one PI person at Chicago doesn't have the "pick of the litter" because (1) many PI organizations might not recruit at Chicago at all, (2) the ones that do might not fit with the student's background/desires. Also, for the most part, the NYU PI kids aren't competing for the same jobs -- they have different backgrounds and want to work in different areas of PI law. On the other hand, if you want to do PI in Chicago, I'd go to Chicago. UC likely has more PI contacts there than NYU does.

Welp, this might have knocked U of C out the running for me. No public interest? I'll just go ask in the chat right now. I mean 1 person? I feel like I'd be an outcast.

[twistedwrister]

Here again for about an hour. STILL relaxing, even though classes have started-up. I hope everyone's grades turned out OK.

[legalmindedfella]

Thanks for all your responses during this thread, great help. Random question, but my hope is it might be of use to a few... Do you have a good sense of how much the law school is integrated with other schools at NYU? Are there opportunities available if you aren't in a special program for taking classes at other schools, and if so, have you or students in your year taken advantage of them? Do you ever interact with non-law professors?

[twistedwrister]

Thanks for all your responses during this thread, great help. Random question, but my hope is it might be of use to a few... Do you have a good sense of how much the law school is integrated with other schools at NYU? Are there opportunities available if you aren't in a special program for taking classes at other schools, and if so, have you or students in your year taken advantage of them? Do you ever interact with non-law professors?

There's some integration with other schools. Quite a few classes are cross-listed, mostly with Stern (the business school), a few with the medical school. Law students sign-up for these cross-listed classes just like they would for any other law school class. I haven't taken any, but a few friends have. Also, two of my friends are doing the JD/MBA program.

[vicuna]

In your opinion, do the high amount of students interested in PI at NYU coupled with their reputation for good PI placement make those types of placements easier to obtain for the average student? Is there a risk of getting shut out because so many students are interested, versus the literally 1 student at UChi who perhaps has his pick of the litter?

PI jobs don't work this way. A person who is competitive for a job at a reproductive rights organiaztion isn't going to be competitive for a job at a labor union, and vice versa. PI organizations don't want someone who generally wants to help the world in some way, they want someone who is committed to their specific cause.

What are the most common "causes" that recruit or have salience at NYU (besides the two you mentioned)?

[heyman]

Any insight on this thread?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=146111

[alicen]

hi, thanks for answering questions!

what, in your opinion, are the main draws of Columbia vs. NYU? why does Columbia eventually take so many more cross-admits? i've been admitted to both and am definitely leaning NYU, but i'm very curious about what you might think about this.

[thecilent]

hi, thanks for answering questions!

what, in your opinion, are the main draws of Columbia vs. NYU? why does Columbia eventually take so many more cross-admits? i've been admitted to both and am definitely leaning NYU, but i'm very curious about what you might think about this.

When was your letter and enveloped postmarked for cls?? Congrats.

[twistedwrister]

hi, thanks for answering questions!

what, in your opinion, are the main draws of Columbia vs. NYU? why does Columbia eventually take so many more cross-admits? i've been admitted to both and am definitely leaning NYU, but i'm very curious about what you might think about this.

I'm not sure that Columbia takes that many more cross-admits than NYU does. Take a look at the entering class profiles:

NYU (25/75) - 169/175 LSAT, 3.6/3.9 GPA
Columbia (25/75) - 170/175 LSAT, 3.61/3.82 GPA

The class profiles are almost identical, with a slight edge to Columbia on LSAT and a slight edge to NYU on GPA. I guess Columbia could be getting most of the CLS/NYU cross-admits, but NYU is getting the same quality of students from somewhere. I'm not sure where people get cross admit data except the self-reported stuff on sites like this, LSN, etc. The people who post on these sites **generally** tend to be more "prestige conscious" than average and will thus tend to lean towards CLS over NYU.

In terms of job/clerkship placement, NYU and Columbia are twins. If you're interested in PI work, I can't imagine any school providing a better atmosphere and support system than NYU. Also, the Village is a lot different than Morningside. I visited both and liked both, but for different reasons. I liked the feel of the NYU student body better than the Columbia vibe, but that's personal preference and others disagree. Just visit and see which one you like better. I left NYU's ASW with a huge grin on my face, thinking that I could save the world, so I chose NYU.

[thecilent]

Where are you getting those 25/75 for NYU from? As far as I knew, they were 3.57/3.86 169/173

[Ialdabaoth]

Where are you getting those 25/75 for NYU from? As far as I knew, they were 3.57/3.86 169/173

http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadm ... /index.htm

Fall 2010 entering class profile: 175/169, 3.9/3.6. The TLS law schools ranking page has 2008 LSAT and GPA data.

[al2546]

thanks for taking questions thats really awesome

just wondering what your average day was like as a 1L

[thecilent]

Where are you getting those 25/75 for NYU from? As far as I knew, they were 3.57/3.86 169/173

http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadm ... /index.htm

Fall 2010 entering class profile: 175/169, 3.9/3.6. The TLS law schools ranking page has 2008 LSAT and GPA data.

Oh gotya. I wasn't using the tls page; I was using the newest us rankings

[Ialdabaoth]

Where are you getting those 25/75 for NYU from? As far as I knew, they were 3.57/3.86 169/173

http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadm ... /index.htm

Fall 2010 entering class profile: 175/169, 3.9/3.6. The TLS law schools ranking page has 2008 LSAT and GPA data.

Oh gotya. I wasn't using the tls page; I was using the newest us rankings

Oh okay, sorry for the assumption. I'm too cheap to buy access to the all the US News data, so I was thinking TLS, haha. It would be nice if TLS updated their page though. A lot can change in two years.

[thecilent]

Oh I don't buy it either.

I just use the screen shot here http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/u-s-news ... very-year/

[Ialdabaoth]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Thanks for the link!

[rikkitikki]

twistedwrister,

First off, a huge THANK YOU for your patience with all these questions. I'm enrolling @ NYU in the Fall and you've already answered about a dozen of my burning questions in this thread. Muchas gracias.

Keeping with my belief that no good deed should go unpunished, I have a few more nagging questions to shoot by you:

What did you do for your first summer? Why?

How did you pick the law firm that you'd work at? You mentioned a rapport with the partner you'll be working under, were there any other factors?

You mentioned that you don't live in Manhattan now. Where did you live throughout the three years? Why?

How has your non-traditional status (ie. in the workforce for several years prior) affected your law school experience? I've been working for about six years and I'm wondering if I'll be able to relate to those fresh from undergrad.

Once again, huge thanks for your patience thus far and thanks in advance for your response to the above.

-Rikki

[twistedwrister]

@ rikki - Congrats! I hope you have a great time once you get here. Re your questions:

(1) I worked in the government (doing trial-court level litigation) my first summer. I loved it. The hours were good, the people were nice, and I got a ton of substantive research and writing experience. I'm sure you've heard it before, but it really doesn't matter what you do your first summer so long as (1) it's legal work, and (2) you can speak enthusiastically about it during interviews.

(2) I considered a lot of things when picking a firm -- in decending order of importance: (1) my relationship with the partner I mentioned, (2) strength of the practice group(s) in which I was interested, (3) financial health of the firm (e.g., deferrals, layoffs, offer rate, profits-per-partner, revenue-per-lawyer, etc.), (4) ability to get early responsibility / substantive work (very much related to (1)), (5) prestige, (6) atmosphere (whether I hit it off with the associates, etc.), and (7) how nice the offices were.

(3) I lived outside Manhattan all 3 years. I don't want to get more specific than that (sorry). The commute is a pain, but it's cheaper and it helped me achieve a good school/life balance.

(4) I think working for a few years before law school helped in several respects. First, I wasn't as intimidated by the professors. Second, I could put things in perspective more easily. After all, law school is just SCHOOL, it's not life. Third, I knew what it was like to work long hours and budget my time appropriately. Finally, I think my work experience helped during the job search. FWIW, a lot of the top students at NYU worked for several years prior to law school.