Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 3L, Taking Questions Forum

[NoleinNY]

I do plan on entering the LR fray. The LR website claims they invite the top 3 or 4 people in each section in addition to successful write-ons; sadly, I am not one of those top 3 or 4 people.

[Danteshek]

We are the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review. Some people grade-on (top 5% I believe, not sure though), and others write-on. Those who grade-on must give a good faith effort in the write-on competition to be offered a spot. Many write-on submissions are sub-par (so I hear). So it actually isn't that difficult to stand out from the crowd if you know the Bluebook inside and out (you should read it multiple times cover-to-cover), write well, and make a creative, impactful argument.

There is a transfer write-on competition the first week of school. This year eighteen transfers participated in the transfer write-on. Three transfers (including myself) were offered positions on the flagship review. Normally LLR makes one or two offers to transfers. Each of the three law reviews are required to accept at least one transfer.

[Judge Philip Banks]

Do you know any ballpark figures as to how many people participate in the write-on competition, and how many of those people are extended offers for membership to LLR? About how many members total are on LLR?

[Danteshek]

Do you know any ballpark figures as to how many people participate in the write-on competition, and how many of those people are extended offers for membership to LLR? About how many members total are on LLR?

Sure. I think there were about 250 submissions (rough approximation) in the Spring competition. Of those, I would estimate about 35 offers are made solely on the basis of the write-on. So, if you add the ~10-20 people who grade on (some people decline the offer), you end up with about about 45 staffers. And then you add 1-3 transfers to the mix in the Fall. This year we had a higher than usual number of staffers (51), but perhaps this is the new trend. The size of the staff can expand or contract based on the quality of the write-on submissions and the perceived need for manpower. This year we had 39 editors. So the total LLR membership this year is 90.

This year one of the transfers is one of the lead candidates for Editor-in-Chief (not me). I am applying for Chief Articles Editor and Articles Editor.

[Judge Philip Banks]

Do you know any ballpark figures as to how many people participate in the write-on competition, and how many of those people are extended offers for membership to LLR? About how many members total are on LLR?

Sure. I think there were about 250 submissions (rough approximation) in the Spring competition. Of those, I would estimate about 35 offers are made solely on the basis of the write-on. So, if you add the ~10-20 people who grade on (some people decline the offer), you end up with about about 45 staffers. And then you add 1-3 transfers to the mix in the Fall. This year we had a higher than usual number of staffers (51), but perhaps this is the new trend. The size of the staff can expand or contract based on the quality of the write-on submissions and the perceived need for manpower. This year we had 39 editors. So the total LLR membership this year is 90.

This year one of the transfers is one of the lead candidates for Editor-in-Chief (not me). I am applying for Chief Articles Editor and Articles Editor.

Wow, ~250 submissions is a lot. But I guess it is expected, since, generally, most people want law review... Sounds pretty competitive with only ~35 or so gaining membership.

Do all staffers get to write a note or comment, or is this reserved for editors only? Do the editors ever get to publish an article, or usually only a note or comment?

to Nole:
I am guessing your top choice is LLR, but would you consider membership to one of the other two law reviews?

[Danteshek]

Staffers must write either 1) one Note on any topic, or 2) two Comments on any two cases. Notes generally have a better but still small chance of being published. Typically 1-2 Comments and 4-5 Notes get published. Editors (except Articles Editors, who must remain independent) can write a comment for the Supreme Court issue. Typically, 10-14 Supreme Court Comments get published.

Five incoming staffers are selected each year to write Articles for the Developments issue (all on one currently evolving area of the law). The Chief Developments Editor and the Managing Editor (I think) select the five staffers from a list of incoming staffers who wrote the top write-on papers. Developments writers are (virtually) guaranteed publication.

There are plenty of opportunities to shine on Law Review.

[NoleinNY]

to Nole:
I am guessing your top choice is LLR, but would you consider membership to one of the other two law reviews?

Definitely, the main LR is my top choice. I would take a spot on the Entertainment or International Law Review(s) if they the LR turned me down but they offered; that said, I would actually rather get into the Byrne Trial Advocacy Program than one of the secondary journals.
Or to visualize it:

LR>TA>ELR/ILR

[Judge Philip Banks]

Staffers must write either 1) one Note on any topic, or 2) two Comments on any two cases. Notes generally have a better but still small chance of being published. Typically 1-2 Comments and 4-5 Notes get published. Editors (except Articles Editors, who must remain independent) can write a comment for the Supreme Court issue. Typically, 10-14 Supreme Court Comments get published.

Five incoming staffers are selected each year to write Articles for the Developments issue (all on one currently evolving area of the law). The Chief Developments Editor and the Managing Editor (I think) select the five staffers from a list of incoming staffers who wrote the top write-on papers. Developments writers are (virtually) guaranteed publication.

There are plenty of opportunities to shine on Law Review.

Thanks for this info. I was really curious about these kind of "specifics" and couldn't find them anywhere.

[Judge Philip Banks]

to Nole:
I am guessing your top choice is LLR, but would you consider membership to one of the other two law reviews?

Definitely, the main LR is my top choice. I would take a spot on the Entertainment or International Law Review(s) if they the LR turned me down but they offered; that said, I would actually rather get into the Byrne Trial Advocacy Program than one of the secondary journals.
Or to visualize it:

LR>TA>ELR/ILR

Why the Byrne Trial Advocacy Program over the secondary journals? What attracts you to the trial advocacy program?

[Danteshek]

The Byrne team is amazing, and has only 12 members. It is phenomenal experience for anyone who wants to be a litigator. For the right person, it is better than doing law review.

[NoleinNY]

The Byrne team is amazing, and has only 12 members. It is phenomenal experience for anyone who wants to be a litigator. For the right person, it is better than doing law review.

THIS. I want to be a litigator and would enjoy having this kind of experience.

[Judge Philip Banks]

The Byrne team is amazing, and has only 12 members. It is phenomenal experience for anyone who wants to be a litigator. For the right person, it is better than doing law review.

THIS. I want to be a litigator and would enjoy having this kind of experience.

Don't get me wrong. I did not know about the Byrne team before you mentioned it, but I looked it up, and it looks very interesting, and is something I would definitely consider getting involved in. However, maybe I don't understand how a trial ad program helps those wanting to do litigation... But most cases settle before getting to trial. Trial in most circumstances is to be avoided... It appears that the things you do on the Byrne trial ad team relate to only trials, and not whatever leads up to the trial. Wouldn't a clinic of some sort be more practical to learn the skills necessary to be a successful litigator? Please correct me if I'm wrong - I could be very misinformed...

[Danteshek]

The Byrne team is amazing, and has only 12 members. It is phenomenal experience for anyone who wants to be a litigator. For the right person, it is better than doing law review.

THIS. I want to be a litigator and would enjoy having this kind of experience.

Don't get me wrong. I did not know about the Byrne team before you mentioned it, but I looked it up, and it looks very interesting, and is something I would definitely consider getting involved in. However, maybe I don't understand how a trial ad program helps those wanting to do litigation... But most cases settle before getting to trial. Trial in most circumstances is to be avoided... It appears that the things you do on the Byrne trial ad team relate to only trials, and not whatever leads up to the trial. Wouldn't a clinic of some sort be more practical to learn the skills necessary to be a successful litigator? Please correct me if I'm wrong - I could be very misinformed...

Fake litigators work in big firms (and small firms) and settle 98% of their cases. Real litigators (trial lawyers) go to the DAs and PDs office and battle it in court out day in and day out. Pretty simple really.

[Judge Philip Banks]

The Byrne team is amazing, and has only 12 members. It is phenomenal experience for anyone who wants to be a litigator. For the right person, it is better than doing law review.

THIS. I want to be a litigator and would enjoy having this kind of experience.

Don't get me wrong. I did not know about the Byrne team before you mentioned it, but I looked it up, and it looks very interesting, and is something I would definitely consider getting involved in. However, maybe I don't understand how a trial ad program helps those wanting to do litigation... But most cases settle before getting to trial. Trial in most circumstances is to be avoided... It appears that the things you do on the Byrne trial ad team relate to only trials, and not whatever leads up to the trial. Wouldn't a clinic of some sort be more practical to learn the skills necessary to be a successful litigator? Please correct me if I'm wrong - I could be very misinformed...

Fake litigators work in big firms (and small firms) and settle 98% of their cases. Real litigators (trial lawyers) go to the DAs and PDs office and battle it in court out day in and day out. Pretty simple really.

The Byrne team definitely sounds like it would be very beneficial to someone wanting to learn about being a trial lawyer. Would a clinic be better for someone interested in becoming another average litigator and not a trial lawyer?

[Danteshek]

What clinic are you talking about? I'm assuming you have done your research before asking that question.

[Judge Philip Banks]

What clinic are you talking about? I'm assuming you have done your research before asking that question.

I admittedly did not do my research, and did not have a specific clinic in mind... What about participating in one of the projects/programs of the Disability Rights Legal Center (LinkRemoved) though? From what I can gather, you might be able to help out on and see the beginning, middle, and/or end of a case(s), which could prove useful to someone wanting to gain non-trial experience (I would think). I guess it comes down to what someone wants to do as an attorney, which is an obvious point.

[Danteshek]

What clinic are you talking about? I'm assuming you have done your research before asking that question.

I admittedly did not do my research, and did not have a specific clinic in mind... What about participating in one of the projects/programs of the Disability Rights Legal Center (LinkRemoved) though? From what I can gather, you might be able to help out on and see the beginning, middle, and/or end of a case(s), which could prove useful to someone wanting to gain non-trial experience (I would think). I guess it comes down to what someone wants to do as an attorney, which is an obvious point.

DLRC is a good place to get experience, but I wouldn't suggest it unless you have a pre-existing interest in disability rights.

[Judge Philip Banks]

What clinic are you talking about? I'm assuming you have done your research before asking that question.

I admittedly did not do my research, and did not have a specific clinic in mind... What about participating in one of the projects/programs of the Disability Rights Legal Center (LinkRemoved) though? From what I can gather, you might be able to help out on and see the beginning, middle, and/or end of a case(s), which could prove useful to someone wanting to gain non-trial experience (I would think). I guess it comes down to what someone wants to do as an attorney, which is an obvious point.

DLRC is a good place to get experience, but I wouldn't suggest it unless you have a pre-existing interest in disability rights.

True. I wouldn't get involved in something like that unless I was already interested in it and was exploring the possibility of practicing in that area. Just off the top of your head, do you know of any other program at LLS that would be useful to gain experience employment/labor litigation, class action litigation, or corporate bankruptcy/restructuring?

[Danteshek]

What clinic are you talking about? I'm assuming you have done your research before asking that question.

I admittedly did not do my research, and did not have a specific clinic in mind... What about participating in one of the projects/programs of the Disability Rights Legal Center (LinkRemoved) though? From what I can gather, you might be able to help out on and see the beginning, middle, and/or end of a case(s), which could prove useful to someone wanting to gain non-trial experience (I would think). I guess it comes down to what someone wants to do as an attorney, which is an obvious point.

DLRC is a good place to get experience, but I wouldn't suggest it unless you have a pre-existing interest in disability rights.

True. I wouldn't get involved in something like that unless I was already interested in it and was exploring the possibility of practicing in that area. Just off the top of your head, do you know of any other program at LLS that would be useful to gain experience employment/labor litigation, class action litigation, or corporate bankruptcy/restructuring?

You could do externships (EEOC, Bankruptcy Judge) and/or work for a firm. But you are looking at this the wrong way. If you want to be a litigator, you need to take your Evidence (and Crim Pro) class very seriously, and try to work for a Judge (Superior Court, or Federal District). You could also do Byrne and/or work for the DA/PD. That's how you learn litigation skills. Another option would be to work for a solo practitioner who does small time civil litigation, but in most cases that won't be as good an experience (unless you find someone really great).

[Judge Philip Banks]

You could do externships (EEOC, Bankruptcy Judge) and/or work for a firm. But you are looking at this the wrong way. If you want to be a litigator, you need to take your Evidence (and Crim Pro) class very seriously, and try to work for a Judge (Superior Court, or Federal District). You could also do Byrne and/or work for the DA/PD. That's how you learn litigation skills. Another option would be to work for a solo practitioner who does small time civil litigation, but in most cases that won't be as good an experience (unless you find someone really great).

I realize I am pretty uninformed on this stuff, so I appreciate your advice. I'm also rather directionless at the moment, which doesn't help... I'm going to further investigate the Byrne team, because it sounds pretty interesting. I would love to get a judicial internship 1L summer, but that's relatively rare, right? (especially in LA?)

[NoleinNY]

You could do externships (EEOC, Bankruptcy Judge) and/or work for a firm. But you are looking at this the wrong way. If you want to be a litigator, you need to take your Evidence (and Crim Pro) class very seriously, and try to work for a Judge (Superior Court, or Federal District). You could also do Byrne and/or work for the DA/PD. That's how you learn litigation skills. Another option would be to work for a solo practitioner who does small time civil litigation, but in most cases that won't be as good an experience (unless you find someone really great).

I realize I am pretty uninformed on this stuff, so I appreciate your advice. I'm also rather directionless at the moment, which doesn't help... I'm going to further investigate the Byrne team, because it sounds pretty interesting. I would love to get a judicial internship 1L summer, but that's relatively rare, right? (especially in LA?)

I wouldn't say it is too rare. I know a number of people who have gotten 1L judicial externships. Of course, they are still hard to get and I don't know if any of them are Art III (or if they are state/local).

[Judge Philip Banks]

You could do externships (EEOC, Bankruptcy Judge) and/or work for a firm. But you are looking at this the wrong way. If you want to be a litigator, you need to take your Evidence (and Crim Pro) class very seriously, and try to work for a Judge (Superior Court, or Federal District). You could also do Byrne and/or work for the DA/PD. That's how you learn litigation skills. Another option would be to work for a solo practitioner who does small time civil litigation, but in most cases that won't be as good an experience (unless you find someone really great).

I realize I am pretty uninformed on this stuff, so I appreciate your advice. I'm also rather directionless at the moment, which doesn't help... I'm going to further investigate the Byrne team, because it sounds pretty interesting. I would love to get a judicial internship 1L summer, but that's relatively rare, right? (especially in LA?)

I wouldn't say it is too rare. I know a number of people who have gotten 1L judicial externships. Of course, they are still hard to get and I don't know if any of them are Art III (or if they are state/local).

This sounds rather encouraging to me. My goal is to get Article III for 1L summer. I think (from what I have read) you can gain a lot of valuable experience from getting a job like that. I don't want to count on that though, or get my hopes up. So we will see... Thanks guys for your help/advice.

[Danteshek]

I'm working for an article III Judge my 2L summer. If you have the grades, you can definitely get it as a 1L, but you have to be really on the ball because by the time you know your grades, it will be *almost* too late.

[trose28]

I am strongly considering loyola after visiting, received a nice scholarship, however I am really worried about making it into the top 30 percent after the first year. Do you know any information about those who just miss it? Is loyola willing to work with students, bc I would hate to attend and then have to scramble to transfer after my first year

[NoleinNY]

I am strongly considering loyola after visiting, received a nice scholarship, however I am really worried about making it into the top 30 percent after the first year. Do you know any information about those who just miss it? Is loyola willing to work with students, bc I would hate to attend and then have to scramble to transfer after my first year

There is a problem with that line of thought: schools only take transfers who are top of their classes to begin with. I don't know what one needs to theoretically transfer down to lower ranked schools, but it would seem like a silly idea even if you could. You don't go to any school with the intent to transfer out. And if you can't make the top 30%, you have to make a choice come that May: is it worth sticking around or should I cut my losses. For some people, it is worth it to stick around. Others, not so much.

The school is good about NOT section stacking, however; people have a fair shot at keeping their schollies (though it is certainly not guaranteed).

Edit: I would like to add, for the sake of disclosure and honesty (I have no fear of admitting the following, as it will neither affect my pride or anonymity) but I have a scholarship with stipulations and did not get the grades I would've hoped for in December. They aren't insurmountably bad; however, I need to push extra hard this spring to hope to keep it. [While this is no excuse, one of the reasons I didn't perform as well was because I was very sick around exam time. This just goes to show that you can plan, work hard, study right, go in prepared and still be thrown a curveball.]