Any 3rd or 4th tier success stories? Forum

[mjs92983]

Warren Burger, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court 69-86 went to William Mitchell.

Of course, he was an idiot.

Hardly. Burger was a good Supreme Court Chief Justice. He leaned right of center but was not as right as the guy that followed him (Rehnquist).

give "The Brethren" by Bob Woodward and Scott Armstrong a read. You'll see what I mean.

[D. H2Oman]

lol @ Warren Burger being in here, he graduated in 1931.

[Slimpee]

lol @ Warren Burger being in here, he graduated in 1931.

haha, i was hoping nobody would catch that...

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Please do not join the discussion to bash those of us not attending top schools. I am excited to attend law school in the fall and would love some optimism to balance the negativity that plagues this site for those not making into T14 schools!

Thanks.

Confirmation bias FTL.

[270910]

It's funny that some define success as gaining entry to Big Law, an area of law that has an insanely high washout rate.

Keep in mind what happens when you 'wash out'.

Take two unemployed attorneys: One failed to get biglaw out of LS, the other put in 3 years then left voluntarily (which is how most attrition happens). I can't even begin to describe the difference in (number, speed in obtaining, pay/prestige of) future employment opportunities, law school debt, and savings those two will have.

Maybe only ~5% stay in biglaw through partnerdom, but signifigany majorities of those that 'washout' land on their feet in sweet government, corporate, or botique firm positions.

Like it or not, people approach education with their gut. The cost of law school makes that dangerous... but sometimes you have to stick your neck out. You can't win unless you play, and if you REALLY want to be an attorney, the fact that you /probably/ won't be making bank as an attorney shouldn't deter that choice.

Too problems with that rosy assessment: First, my woman's intuition suggests a large portion of the law school population are more interested in upward class mobility than in the law. Second, I'm positive that even if the $$$ don't motivate everyone in law school, prior to experience it + practice there's no good way to know you'll like being an attorney.

Lots of risk. What can you do?

[reasonable_man]

My boss went to a Tier 4 school, one of those ones that don't even require the LSAT. She makes 150K+ a year.

She was from a foreign country though and thought "rank" didn't matter. She's got a good job, but she works every hour of every day, kisses ass like nobody's business, and is here from like 6am-11pm, with no chance of becoming a Partner.

If you want to be a lawyer because you love the law, work really really hard, and don't care about becoming a millionaire, then I see nothing wrong at all with the T3 & T4 schools. If anything they make sure people practice only that really love it.

Personally though, I wish I was mature enough to practice what I preach; however, for me it is all about rank and location. I'd like to think it is because of job prospects, but I'm realistic and know it's mostly just my stupid pride...

Oh, also my Bro's friend Craig went to Gonzaga (which is now borderline 2nd Tier, but was 3rd/4th teir when he went). He found a great job, but he is really smart, hard working, had an amazing social network, and had to move to Texas. I'd rather live poor and in debt than move there, but if you don't mind it, than you should be good.

A 4th tier school that doesn't require an LSAT score? Those are hard to find, as the ABA requires that all ABA approved LS require an LSAT score. And in order to be on the USNWR ranking (even in the 4th tier), the school must be ABA approved.

Me thinks you lie.

[Xnegd]

My boss went to a Tier 4 school, one of those ones that don't even require the LSAT. She makes 150K+ a year.

She was from a foreign country though and thought "rank" didn't matter. She's got a good job, but she works every hour of every day, kisses ass like nobody's business, and is here from like 6am-11pm, with no chance of becoming a Partner.

If you want to be a lawyer because you love the law, work really really hard, and don't care about becoming a millionaire, then I see nothing wrong at all with the T3 & T4 schools. If anything they make sure people practice only that really love it.

Personally though, I wish I was mature enough to practice what I preach; however, for me it is all about rank and location. I'd like to think it is because of job prospects, but I'm realistic and know it's mostly just my stupid pride...

Oh, also my Bro's friend Craig went to Gonzaga (which is now borderline 2nd Tier, but was 3rd/4th teir when he went). He found a great job, but he is really smart, hard working, had an amazing social network, and had to move to Texas. I'd rather live poor and in debt than move there, but if you don't mind it, than you should be good.

A 4th tier school that doesn't require an LSAT score? Those are hard to find, as the ABA requires that all ABA approved LS require an LSAT score. And in order to be on the USNWR ranking (even in the 4th tier), the school must be ABA approved.

Me thinks you lie.

*Uhem* So, do you like Apples?

http://www.eastbaylawschool.org/home.html

How do you like these apples?

[oneforship]

My boss went to a Tier 4 school, one of those ones that don't even require the LSAT. She makes 150K+ a year.

She was from a foreign country though and thought "rank" didn't matter. She's got a good job, but she works every hour of every day, kisses ass like nobody's business, and is here from like 6am-11pm, with no chance of becoming a Partner.

If you want to be a lawyer because you love the law, work really really hard, and don't care about becoming a millionaire, then I see nothing wrong at all with the T3 & T4 schools. If anything they make sure people practice only that really love it.

Personally though, I wish I was mature enough to practice what I preach; however, for me it is all about rank and location. I'd like to think it is because of job prospects, but I'm realistic and know it's mostly just my stupid pride...

Oh, also my Bro's friend Craig went to Gonzaga (which is now borderline 2nd Tier, but was 3rd/4th teir when he went). He found a great job, but he is really smart, hard working, had an amazing social network, and had to move to Texas. I'd rather live poor and in debt than move there, but if you don't mind it, than you should be good.

A 4th tier school that doesn't require an LSAT score? Those are hard to find, as the ABA requires that all ABA approved LS require an LSAT score. And in order to be on the USNWR ranking (even in the 4th tier), the school must be ABA approved.

Me thinks you lie.

*Uhem* So, do you like Apples?

http://www.eastbaylawschool.org/home.html

How do you like these apples?

That school isn't ABA approved or 4th Tier

[Xnegd]

Really?

...I guess I don't like these apples either.

[tamlyric]

Quick comment. Almost everyone in here bashing T3 and T4 schools is either clueless or bored.

OK. Carry on.

[reasonable_man]

Really?

...I guess I don't like these apples either.

Dumb ass. If you're gonig to go big and quote good will hunting. Make sure you're right first. Once again, 4th tier USNWR schools are all aba approved. You can't be aba approved unless you require an LSAT for admission. Thus your story is false and you're either a) lying; b) don't know what you're talking about..

In any event, thanks for showing up today.

[Xnegd]

Quick comment. Almost everyone in here bashing T3 and T4 schools is either clueless or bored.

OK. Carry on.

I thought that was TLS in general.

[270910]

You can't be aba approved unless you require an LSAT for admission. Thus your story is false and you're either a) lying; b) don't know what you're talking about..

Man, in any other context I'd probably let this side, but we're nitpicking and we're (proto) lawyers so I really can't. The actual ABA rules require an 'aptitude test', not the LSAT. The rule is somewhat more formal / nuanced than that, but the LSAT is definitely not exclusively required. The most important example of this would be certain programs at Northwestern that explicitly do not require the LSAT. You may have heard of NU? I believe they're ABA certified / their grads don't even need to take the 'baby bar' after 1L year anymore

Sorry, I feel kind of unclean correcting RM since by and large I find you the most well informed & helpful poster on TLS...

[LSATfromNC]

My boss went to a Tier 4 school, one of those ones that don't even require the LSAT. She makes 150K+ a year.

She was from a foreign country though and thought "rank" didn't matter. She's got a good job, but she works every hour of every day, kisses ass like nobody's business, and is here from like 6am-11pm, with no chance of becoming a Partner.

If you want to be a lawyer because you love the law, work really really hard, and don't care about becoming a millionaire, then I see nothing wrong at all with the T3 & T4 schools. If anything they make sure people practice only that really love it.

Personally though, I wish I was mature enough to practice what I preach; however, for me it is all about rank and location. I'd like to think it is because of job prospects, but I'm realistic and know it's mostly just my stupid pride...

Oh, also my Bro's friend Craig went to Gonzaga (which is now borderline 2nd Tier, but was 3rd/4th teir when he went). He found a great job, but he is really smart, hard working, had an amazing social network, and had to move to Texas. I'd rather live poor and in debt than move there, but if you don't mind it, than you should be good.

A 4th tier school that doesn't require an LSAT score? Those are hard to find, as the ABA requires that all ABA approved LS require an LSAT score. And in order to be on the USNWR ranking (even in the 4th tier), the school must be ABA approved.

Me thinks you lie.

*Uhem* So, do you like Apples?

http://www.eastbaylawschool.org/home.html

How do you like these apples?

--ImageRemoved--

That school isn't ABA approved or 4th Tier

[reasonable_man]

You can't be aba approved unless you require an LSAT for admission. Thus your story is false and you're either a) lying; b) don't know what you're talking about..

Man, in any other context I'd probably let this side, but we're nitpicking and we're (proto) lawyers so I really can't. The actual ABA rules require an 'aptitude test', not the LSAT. The rule is somewhat more formal / nuanced than that, but the LSAT is definitely not exclusively required. The most important example of this would be certain programs at Northwestern that explicitly do not require the LSAT. You may have heard of NU? I believe they're ABA certified / their grads don't even need to take the 'baby bar' after 1L year anymore

Sorry, I feel kind of unclean correcting RM since by and large I find you the most well informed & helpful poster on TLS...

Do these NU programs grant a JD or allow you to sit for most state bar exams?

[09042014]

You can't be aba approved unless you require an LSAT for admission. Thus your story is false and you're either a) lying; b) don't know what you're talking about..

Man, in any other context I'd probably let this side, but we're nitpicking and we're (proto) lawyers so I really can't. The actual ABA rules require an 'aptitude test', not the LSAT. The rule is somewhat more formal / nuanced than that, but the LSAT is definitely not exclusively required. The most important example of this would be certain programs at Northwestern that explicitly do not require the LSAT. You may have heard of NU? I believe they're ABA certified / their grads don't even need to take the 'baby bar' after 1L year anymore

Sorry, I feel kind of unclean correcting RM since by and large I find you the most well informed & helpful poster on TLS...

Do these NU programs grant a JD or allow you to sit for most state bar exams?

Yea. The AJD, and JD/MBA both only require a GMAT.

Michigan has a program where undergrads can apply for Michigan law never taking the LSAT. UIUC has a program like that too.

[270910]

You can't be aba approved unless you require an LSAT for admission. Thus your story is false and you're either a) lying; b) don't know what you're talking about..

Man, in any other context I'd probably let this side, but we're nitpicking and we're (proto) lawyers so I really can't. The actual ABA rules require an 'aptitude test', not the LSAT. The rule is somewhat more formal / nuanced than that, but the LSAT is definitely not exclusively required. The most important example of this would be certain programs at Northwestern that explicitly do not require the LSAT. You may have heard of NU? I believe they're ABA certified / their grads don't even need to take the 'baby bar' after 1L year anymore

Sorry, I feel kind of unclean correcting RM since by and large I find you the most well informed & helpful poster on TLS...

Do these NU programs grant a JD or allow you to sit for most state bar exams?

They grant a JD.

Here's the rule, just to settle this once and for all:

Standard 503. ADMISSION TEST
A law school shall require each applicant for admission as a first year J.D. student to take
a valid and reliable admission test to assist the school and the applicant in assessing the
applicant’s capability of satisfactorily completing the school’s educational program. In
making admissions decisions, a law school shall use the test results in a manner that is
consistent with the current guidelines regarding proper use of the test results provided by
the agency that developed the test.

Interpretation 503-1
A law school that uses an admission test other than the Law School Admission Test sponsored by
the Law School Admission Council shall establish that such other test is a valid and reliable test
to assist the school in assessing an applicant’s capability to satisfactorily complete the school’s
educational program.

As the above poster mentions, Michigan also takes some of its UGs w/o the LSAT. (In fact, the program MANDATES its UGs not even take the LSAT, it's a pretty naked rankings ploy).

As far as I know, the schools that play this game either use the SAT or GMAT as their 'valid and reliable admission test'

Sorry again

[reasonable_man]

You can't be aba approved unless you require an LSAT for admission. Thus your story is false and you're either a) lying; b) don't know what you're talking about..

Man, in any other context I'd probably let this side, but we're nitpicking and we're (proto) lawyers so I really can't. The actual ABA rules require an 'aptitude test', not the LSAT. The rule is somewhat more formal / nuanced than that, but the LSAT is definitely not exclusively required. The most important example of this would be certain programs at Northwestern that explicitly do not require the LSAT. You may have heard of NU? I believe they're ABA certified / their grads don't even need to take the 'baby bar' after 1L year anymore

Sorry, I feel kind of unclean correcting RM since by and large I find you the most well informed & helpful poster on TLS...

Do these NU programs grant a JD or allow you to sit for most state bar exams?

Yea. The AJD, and JD/MBA both only require a GMAT.

Michigan has a program where undergrads can apply for Michigan law never taking the LSAT. UIUC has a program like that too.

Well I'll be a horses ass... Would ya look at that.. Someone get me an apple.

[270910]

Well I'll be a horses ass... Would ya look at that.. Someone get me an apple.

[reasonable_man]

Well I'll be a horses ass... Would ya look at that.. Someone get me an apple.

Welll.. I actually like green apples better than red anyway, so if its gonna be an apple.. might as well be one I like..

[chango]

Success/failure stories are by definition anecdotal.

Would it be too bold of me to suggest you wannabe lawyers actually use some hard evidence to support your assertions?

[darknightbegins]

Success/failure stories are by definition anecdotal.

Would it be too bold of me to suggest you wannabe lawyers actually use some hard evidence to support your assertions?

Yes it would be bold

[schmohawk]

I think everyone has their own success story that they could share. "I know this one guy/girl who is making six figures and went to..." What these people, IMO, all have in common is incredible work ethic and dedication to their practice. At the end of the day, that's what makes money in any business. Those without real-world experience probably can't wholly appreciate this truth. I have a friend with a JD from Vandy and one with a JD from an in-state "TTT" working in the same large firm, both equally successfully in their respective practice areas. They're both great lawyers, incredibly intelligent, and bust their asses off for their billable hours each and every day. Nothing stopping either one of them from making partner at this point (many years down the road of course) except for their commitment.

[Snuffie]

The serious answer is it is possible to make a good living, but almost every student winds up with a lot of debt and a job that doesn't pay well.

IMO if you can't get T1, fucking retake the LSAT. I don't care if you don't want to you need to.

If after that you still can't get T1 here is what you do. Work for a year with a fulltime job and a part time job, save as much money as you can. At least 10K

Go to the highest ranked school in an area you want to live that will give you a full ride. If your scholarship gets revoked you quit.

This way you'll have minimal debt.

A T2-4 degree isn't worth crippling debt.

If you can't get a full ride at T4 you are too stupid to go to law school.

Apparently I'm too stupid to go to law school. I've taken the LSAT thrice. Just got my third score and it's as bad as my first score - and we're talking Cooley bad, here. It's strange, really. I'm a member of Mensa, which I suppose means that I just did well on some other test I scored ridiculously high on the GRE, but you can pick your own day, go in at 1:00 and rock it out on a computer. I do very, very well on the PTs and I test under precise conditions, but it's just not happening.

I figure I'll take the June administration. It's much later in the day and maybe I can sleep. Even if I score 170+ in June, I doubt adcoms will care. I am a smart guy. Maybe I'm just not law school material.

[Snuffie]

Whether or not he is a "success story" is debatable. I don't think that cross dressing really spells out success. Nor does exploiting an act of terrorism for your own political gains - parading himself around like a fucking hero because he was the mayor of NYC, what bullshit. The policemen/firemen/servicemen who were at ground zero were the heroes. You never saw Giuliani digging through the rubble to save people.

My point

--------

Your head.

I was trolling NYU bro.

lol, this exchange made my day

+1