Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[tomwatts]

Ok so no official enrollment for me, that's fine; I don't particularly care about getting it on a transcript because I just want to learn. In fact that may make things easier so I don't have to petition HKS to get the credit and jump those hoops. What about just regularly attending a Leg Reg class with approval of prof? I figure with the large 80-student sections that this wouldn't be awkward or a problem? And if I just buy the casebook that should be all I need for course materials? Or would profs even say no to this because it's disruptive?

If you just want to learn, you may just want to pick up a hornbook. If you really want, though, then yes, you can ask for a prof's approval to sit in on the class. I'm pretty sure that you could find one (out of the three or four each semester) who would say yes — there's plenty of space in the classrooms, generally. And yeah, the only official course materials are usually the casebooks.

[MDguy]

Ok so no official enrollment for me, that's fine; I don't particularly care about getting it on a transcript because I just want to learn. In fact that may make things easier so I don't have to petition HKS to get the credit and jump those hoops. What about just regularly attending a Leg Reg class with approval of prof? I figure with the large 80-student sections that this wouldn't be awkward or a problem? And if I just buy the casebook that should be all I need for course materials? Or would profs even say no to this because it's disruptive?

If you just want to learn, you may just want to pick up a hornbook. If you really want, though, then yes, you can ask for a prof's approval to sit in on the class. I'm pretty sure that you could find one (out of the three or four each semester) who would say yes — there's plenty of space in the classrooms, generally. And yeah, the only official course materials are usually the casebooks.

Great, thanks for the input! I cannot learn shit from passively reading on my own, let alone a big fat ugly hornbook. Especially after 3 years of structured medical school with its apprenticeship model and all, I'd like to be in class lol

[Pneumonia]

I'm sure you could find a Leg Reg prof that would let you do that. You'll want to get some info about the various profs though, and about their teaching styles/focus. My 1L Criminal class had someone from one of the other Grad schools audit in exactly the way you're suggesting, so I don't think you'd find it too difficult.

You might consider cross-registering into the Advanced Legal Writing course if you're looking to improve your writing. Unlike the first-year LRW, the course is useful and you get good feedback.

[MDguy]

I'm sure you could find a Leg Reg prof that would let you do that. You'll want to get some info about the various profs though, and about their teaching styles/focus. My 1L Criminal class had someone from one of the other Grad schools audit in exactly the way you're suggesting, so I don't think you'd find it too difficult.

You might consider cross-registering into the Advanced Legal Writing course if you're looking to improve your writing. Unlike the first-year LRW, the course is useful and you get good feedback.

What's wrong with the first year LRW? Too much busy work?
I'm more interested in learning the LR part over the LW (which is of little use b/c I want to do agency work/advising). Though I guess if I had the time it'd be cool to learn how to write a memo, but briefs sound like a useless waste of time for me

[dylar]

If you RA for a professor, how much do you get paid? And how many hours per week is typical (or does this vary completely by prof?)

[tomwatts]

If you RA for a professor, how much do you get paid? And how many hours per week is typical (or does this vary completely by prof?)

I believe it's $11.50/hr. and wildly variable hours.

I'm sure you could find a Leg Reg prof that would let you do that. You'll want to get some info about the various profs though, and about their teaching styles/focus. My 1L Criminal class had someone from one of the other Grad schools audit in exactly the way you're suggesting, so I don't think you'd find it too difficult.

You might consider cross-registering into the Advanced Legal Writing course if you're looking to improve your writing. Unlike the first-year LRW, the course is useful and you get good feedback.

What's wrong with the first year LRW? Too much busy work?

I could go on for a while. Suffice it to say that auditing LRW will not teach you in any meaningful way how to do legal research.

[MDguy]

I'm sure you could find a Leg Reg prof that would let you do that. You'll want to get some info about the various profs though, and about their teaching styles/focus. My 1L Criminal class had someone from one of the other Grad schools audit in exactly the way you're suggesting, so I don't think you'd find it too difficult.

You might consider cross-registering into the Advanced Legal Writing course if you're looking to improve your writing. Unlike the first-year LRW, the course is useful and you get good feedback.

What's wrong with the first year LRW? Too much busy work?

I could go on for a while. Suffice it to say that auditing LRW will not teach you in any meaningful way how to do legal research.

Lol ok then tyty I shall stray far away from LRW then

[Indifference]

Did anyone here experience a lack of motivation early on 2nd semester 1L? I had moments of it last semester but nothing as bad as now. Having a lot of trouble caring about any of this stuff, getting reading done, taking notes, etc. Dunno if that is normal. Worried I used up all my enthusiasm last semester, and it's just a dull slog from here to the finish line.

[Mr. Elshal]

Did anyone here experience a lack of motivation early on 2nd semester 1L? I had moments of it last semester but nothing as bad as now. Having a lot of trouble caring about any of this stuff, getting reading done, taking notes, etc. Dunno if that is normal. Worried I used up all my enthusiasm last semester, and it's just a dull slog from here to the finish line.

Totally normal. And I know of a few people, myself included, who experienced that and got the same or better grades second semester.

ETA: Also, it helps to find an extracurricular you're really passionate about and dive into that headfirst. That was a big help for me.

[Nonconsecutive]

Searched ITT, couldn't find anything.

Around what time do the multi-section and/or elective courses start to trickle into the catalog for next year? I know the catalogs get updated as the year progresses, but I've never paid attention to when the first version of the catalog actually tends to come out.

I want to say not that long before registration begins, like in April or something, but I haven't tracked this carefully.

Thanks!

[Pneumonia]

I'm sure you could find a Leg Reg prof that would let you do that. You'll want to get some info about the various profs though, and about their teaching styles/focus. My 1L Criminal class had someone from one of the other Grad schools audit in exactly the way you're suggesting, so I don't think you'd find it too difficult.

You might consider cross-registering into the Advanced Legal Writing course if you're looking to improve your writing. Unlike the first-year LRW, the course is useful and you get good feedback.

What's wrong with the first year LRW? Too much busy work?
I'm more interested in learning the LR part over the LW (which is of little use b/c I want to do agency work/advising). Though I guess if I had the time it'd be cool to learn how to write a memo, but briefs sound like a useless waste of time for me

Fall Semester you produce two "memos," and Spring semester you produce one brief. The class meets less than once a week and is taught by what are essentially grad students. They are all brilliant, but their level of engagement with students is hugely variable. The class meetings are usually just powerpoints and busy work. It is not a helpful class.

There is an "Advanced Legal Research" class. I have not taken it, but I intend to. Friends have all told me that it is all practical and very helpful.

[Indifference]

Are RA positions with professors paid during the school year?
Don't mind if not, but it would be a nice bonus.

ETA: I am aware of the ~11.50 pay for the positions, just didn't know if it also applies during the school year, or just to summer RA positions.

[robotrick]

Are RA positions with professors paid during the school year?
Don't mind if not, but it would be a nice bonus.

ETA: I am aware of the ~11.50 pay for the positions, just didn't know if it also applies during the school year, or just to summer RA positions.

Yes, AFAIK (mine was), although I have seen some options to do the work "for credit." No idea how that works.

[TripTrip]

Are RA positions with professors paid during the school year?
Don't mind if not, but it would be a nice bonus.

ETA: I am aware of the ~11.50 pay for the positions, just didn't know if it also applies during the school year, or just to summer RA positions.

Yes, AFAIK (mine was), although I have seen some options to do the work "for credit." No idea how that works.

I can personally confirm both.

[MDguy]

I'm sure you could find a Leg Reg prof that would let you do that. You'll want to get some info about the various profs though, and about their teaching styles/focus. My 1L Criminal class had someone from one of the other Grad schools audit in exactly the way you're suggesting, so I don't think you'd find it too difficult.

You might consider cross-registering into the Advanced Legal Writing course if you're looking to improve your writing. Unlike the first-year LRW, the course is useful and you get good feedback.

What's wrong with the first year LRW? Too much busy work?
I'm more interested in learning the LR part over the LW (which is of little use b/c I want to do agency work/advising). Though I guess if I had the time it'd be cool to learn how to write a memo, but briefs sound like a useless waste of time for me

Fall Semester you produce two "memos," and Spring semester you produce one brief. The class meets less than once a week and is taught by what are essentially grad students. They are all brilliant, but their level of engagement with students is hugely variable. The class meetings are usually just powerpoints and busy work. It is not a helpful class.

There is an "Advanced Legal Research" class. I have not taken it, but I intend to. Friends have all told me that it is all practical and very helpful.

Okay so the Climenko thing is all hype. I see I see. I'll look at the Adv LR/LW classes then. Not interested in producing just 2 memos and a brief all year...

[LaziestPeople]

Could people talk about their clinical experiences? I am particularly interested in clinics that allow you to go to courts regularly. Thanks!

[despina]

Could people talk about their clinical experiences? I am particularly interested in clinics that allow you to go to courts regularly. Thanks!

I talked about CJI, the criminal defense clinic, a few pages back. In court all the time, awesome program.

[LaziestPeople]

Could people talk about their clinical experiences? I am particularly interested in clinics that allow you to go to courts regularly. Thanks!

I talked about CJI, the criminal defense clinic, a few pages back. In court all the time, awesome program.

Thanks! Will be sure to apply in my 3L year.

[despina]

Could people talk about their clinical experiences? I am particularly interested in clinics that allow you to go to courts regularly. Thanks!

I talked about CJI, the criminal defense clinic, a few pages back. In court all the time, awesome program.

Thanks! Will be sure to apply in my 3L year.

First make sure you've taken Evidence and TAW. You can TAW your 3L fall but it's nice to have it out of the way 2L JTerm.

[hlsperson123]

Now that BSA apps are coming up, what kind of grades do you need to be competitive? Apologies if it's been answered, I didn't see anything more concrete than "better than median and do well in LRW."

[polareagle]

Now that BSA apps are coming up, what kind of grades do you need to be competitive? Apologies if it's been answered, I didn't see anything more concrete than "better than median and do well in LRW."

My understanding is that grades (even in LRW), while a factor, matter less than what your Climenko/BSA/interviewer say about you.

[LaziestPeople]

What are the selection criteria of HLAB? Do grades matter a lot?

[flyingboy]

Now that BSA apps are coming up, what kind of grades do you need to be competitive? Apologies if it's been answered, I didn't see anything more concrete than "better than median and do well in LRW."

My understanding is that grades (even in LRW), while a factor, matter less than what your Climenko/BSA/interviewer say about you.

My Climenko fellow said being a BSA is one of the only jobs at Harvard where "being nice actually matters."

[LaziestPeople]

as a very rough outline the below applies to the major market for grade selectivity, obviously the DC and SF offices of these firms are tougher (places like Jones Day and Hogan DC aren't easy) and it doesn't take into account personality (some firms like Cooley or Proskauer drill more for fit). People can (and during bid list season do) argue all day about minor gradations, e.g. sullivan is more selective than simpson, blah blah, but this is the gist.

Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

1. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz - selective
2. Cravath, Swaine & Moore - somewhat selective
3. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher - not selective
4. Sullivan & Cromwell - somewhat selective
5. Davis Polk & Wardwell - somewhat selective
6. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett - somewhat selective
7. Kirkland & Ellis - not selective
8. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton - somewhat selective
9. Weil, Gotshal & Manges - not selective
10. Latham & Watkins - not selective
11. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher - somewhat selective for LA/DC
12. Boies, Schiller & Flexner - selective
13. Covington & Burling - somewhat selective, esp DC
14. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison - somewhat selective
15. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan - doesn't really have a summer program
16. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP - not selective
17. Sidley Austin LLP - not selective
18. Williams & Connolly LLP - selective
19. Jones Day - not selective
20. White & Case LLP - not selective
21. WilmerHale - somewhat selective, esp DC
22. Morrison & Foerster LLP - not selective
23. Ropes & Gray LLP - not selective, but can be competitive in desirable locations
24. Paul Hastings LLP - not selective
25. Arnold & Porter LLP - somewhat selective, esp DC
26. O'Melveny & Myers LLP - not selective
27. Clifford Chance US LLP - not selective
28. Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP - selective
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP - not selective
30. Shearman & Sterling LLP - not selective
31. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP - not selective
32. Baker & McKenzie - not selective
33. Hogan Lovells US LLP - not selective
34. Mayer Brown LLP - not selective (except DC)
35. Goodwin Procter LLP - not selective
36. Proskauer Rose LLP - not grade selective, but tough
37. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP - not selective
38. Cooley LLP - not selective
39. Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP - not selective
40. Linklaters LLP (US) - not selective

Lots of amazing and more selective firms aren't on this list. Also, being grade selective doesn't make a firm better. Lots of great firms dont care about grades at somewhere like HLS but they look for other qualities and shouldn't be dismissed.

Could you please quantify "selective", "somewhat selective" and "not selective" by the number of Hs? Thanks!

[mdnyc]

0L here. I have a buddy who will be attending HBS in the fall, and we're considering rooming together. I know HLS and HBS are a little far away from each other, so we're trying to figure out where to focus our searching. Are there any locations in particular that work well for both schools?