So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[Alive97]

As far as I am concerned, playing the game by the rules is about as ethical as it gets.

didn't you say it's okay for corporations to use loopholes to skirt the intent of the law though?

[Johann]

So the moral of the story in this thread appears to be do litigation if you want a semi-viable life in a BigLaw atmosphere. Wait until either ish hits the fan or you can't take it anymore & pray for a cushy gov job where you make $110k+ and work closer to a 9-5 40-50 work week.

It seems like the M&A and other stuff that's actually messing people up.

until a brief is due or trial hits. have fun staring down 500 (brief) - 600 (trial) hours in 6 weeks.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

As far as I am concerned, playing the game by the rules is about as ethical as it gets.

didn't you say it's okay for corporations to use loopholes to skirt the intent of the law though?

Those statements aren't contradictory. IF the tax law says X and you follow X, albeit not what X intended then that is the person who wrote X's fault for writing shitty legislation that doesn't cover what it was intended to cover. I mean, I am not making this up. Corporations do this all the time.

Just as if I break tax laws my defense in court can't be oh, well that wasn't my intent! They don't give a shi* what my intent was. I broke the law as written.

Plus, shall we turn our focus on the historical moral compass of our government?

[Alive97]

As far as I am concerned, playing the game by the rules is about as ethical as it gets.

didn't you say it's okay for corporations to use loopholes to skirt the intent of the law though?

Those statements aren't contradictory. IF the tax law says X and you follow X, albeit not what X intended then that is the person who wrote X's fault for writing shitty legislation that doesn't cover what it was intended to cover. I mean, I am not making this up. Corporations do this all the time.

Just as if I break tax laws my defense in court can't be oh, well that wasn't my intent! They don't give a shi* what my intent was. I broke the law as written.

Plus, shall we turn our focus on the historical moral compass of our government?

I hope your schools have identified you . I find it hard to argue that playing by the rules doesn't have to entail respecting the intent of the rules. You're talking about a technicality - an excuse. The law can't necessarily stay ahead of everything.

[smaug]

So the moral of the story in this thread appears to be do litigation if you want a semi-viable life in a BigLaw atmosphere. Wait until either ish hits the fan or you can't take it anymore & pray for a cushy gov job where you make $110k+ and work closer to a 9-5 40-50 work week.

It seems like the M&A and other stuff that's actually messing people up.

Just do get a government job

+1. Tempting to squeeze some money out of these firms though. It seems like you either go to BigLaw straight after you pass the bar or your window is closed permanently

"Just do" is a meme used when someone doesn't understand that what they are suggesting is simple is impossible.


Hope that helps a bit.

[MyNameIsntJames]

So the moral of the story in this thread appears to be do litigation if you want a semi-viable life in a BigLaw atmosphere. Wait until either ish hits the fan or you can't take it anymore & pray for a cushy gov job where you make $110k+ and work closer to a 9-5 40-50 work week.

It seems like the M&A and other stuff that's actually messing people up.

Just do get a government job

+1. Tempting to squeeze some money out of these firms though. It seems like you either go to BigLaw straight after you pass the bar or your window is closed permanently

"Just do" is a meme used when someone doesn't understand that what they are suggesting is simple is impossible.


Hope that helps a bit.

True lol. I mean someone has to be getting these government jobs though, right? And I can't imagine that you just have 0 options whatsoever after you leave BigLaw

[smaug]

Someone has to make it on pro sports teams too but that doesn't mean that you should plan on it because you're OK at basketball...

[Danger Zone]

State and local government jobs aren't that crazy to get, are they? Obviously not including NYC in that.

[Johann]

True lol. I mean someone has to be getting these government jobs though, right? And I can't imagine that you just have 0 options whatsoever after you leave BigLaw

I went to a shitty law school, so obviously this is anecdotal. But at least the first 5 people I met who had worked/did work biglaw were doc reviewers who were laid off from Latham and Winston and Strawn.

Then I did the math and realized that a good number of the legal writing professors were also ex-biglaw associates who were adjuncting for these classes probably making 15k a semester. A couple of them left for government jobs in various capacities (working at courts as attorney advisors or clerks, city government roles). None of these jobs paid over 100k. Most probably paid around 55k with cost of living (1%-2.5%) raises every year.

There really is some truth to the theory that failed biglaw flameouts end up in similarly shitty positions as TTT grads who hustle and ladder up from shitlaw gig to shitlaw gig.

Obviously, there are great outcomes for some attorneys that go in house and work 50 hour weeks to make hefty 6 figure salaries, but it's definitely not the rule.

[SoonerDevil]

The OP is 100% accurate. I appreciate the brutal honesty. I strongly encourage all 1Ls or 2Ls reading this thread to do the JD/MBA program unless they are dead set on criminal practice or government work.

I did a JD/MBA program -- (both the law school and b-school are top 25-30ish, so nothing special, but certainly within an acceptable range) -- and it was, by far, the best career move I've ever made. The OP is right -- the premise that a JD opens many doors is flat wrong. Perhaps that was true decades ago, but it certainly is not true today. And, for some reason, the MBA is presently perceived as being a very versatile degree, akin to an utility infielder in baseball. But the quality of education from law school (e.g., learning how to think critically, writing in crisp, short sentences, and being forced to see all sides of an issue and ultimately give an opinion) was far more valuable than the education from b school (I was a finance and accounting undergrad and worked for a F500 company in their accounting group prior to grad school, so perhaps this explains my thoughts as I had a strong foundation in numbers and Excel).

I worked for a reputable regional firm, and really enjoyed my time there. I left because I was able to leverage my experience as an attorney (I am particularly good at client development, and was spending 1/3 of my billable hours on work that I originated organically by my third year of practice) into a boutique consulting opportunity. I regularly had headhunters contacting me about business opportunities because of my unique educational background. Let me be clear; I am not a genius or anyone that is off the charts smart. Far from it. But I do work my ass off, I'm excellent with clients, and I always deliver on my promises.

For those that have an interest in business, or want to think strategically and drive results, a law firm setting is not for you. And, as the OP noted, a corporate practice is not nearly as sexy as it is cracked up to be. All of the high level decisions are made by executives employed by your client, not from the attorneys that represent them. No doubt the attorneys provide valuable insight and explain risks, but at the end of the day the challenging and professionally rewarding opportunities are enjoyed by the business leaders, not their attorneys. Plus, there's no stock options in law.

Last thought. If you are a JD/MBA you will be appalled at what passes for professional writing in the business world. MBAs, generally speaking, can't write worth shit. And if you can speak numbers and run Excel sheets with them, you have a distinct competitive advantage because you can handle the qualitative and quantitative aspects of the business world. Most MBAs can't do the qualitative analysis.

[Cogburn87]

State and local government jobs aren't that crazy to get, are they? Obviously not including NYC in that.

There is competition for them, yes. They aren't consolation prizes for biglaw flameouts. You'll have to compete with people who have demonstrated their interest in the public sector.

[Banshee]

Read some but not all...sorry if already asked/discussed.

I'm definitely not some dreamy-eyed law student, I know Biglaw is Biglaw and it sucks, but any correlation to the fact that OP works at a V3? Is it the same everywhere or will people at V20....V50....etc...say any different?

Also, what about "firm culture"? In the sense that some firms are known for being more nose to the grindstone/cutthroat? Does that affect your opinion/experience?

[MyNameIsntJames]

The OP is 100% accurate. I appreciate the brutal honesty. I strongly encourage all 1Ls or 2Ls reading this thread to do the JD/MBA program unless they are dead set on criminal practice or government work.

I did a JD/MBA program -- (both the law school and b-school are top 25-30ish, so nothing special, but certainly within an acceptable range) -- and it was, by far, the best career move I've ever made. The OP is right -- the premise that a JD opens many doors is flat wrong. Perhaps that was true decades ago, but it certainly is not true today. And, for some reason, the MBA is presently perceived as being a very versatile degree, akin to an utility infielder in baseball. But the quality of education from law school (e.g., learning how to think critically, writing in crisp, short sentences, and being forced to see all sides of an issue and ultimately give an opinion) was far more valuable than the education from b school (I was a finance and accounting undergrad and worked for a F500 company in their accounting group prior to grad school, so perhaps this explains my thoughts as I had a strong foundation in numbers and Excel).

I worked for a reputable regional firm, and really enjoyed my time there. I left because I was able to leverage my experience as an attorney (I am particularly good at client development, and was spending 1/3 of my billable hours on work that I originated organically by my third year of practice) into a boutique consulting opportunity. I regularly had headhunters contacting me about business opportunities because of my unique educational background. Let me be clear; I am not a genius or anyone that is off the charts smart. Far from it. But I do work my ass off, I'm excellent with clients, and I always deliver on my promises.

For those that have an interest in business, or want to think strategically and drive results, a law firm setting is not for you. And, as the OP noted, a corporate practice is not nearly as sexy as it is cracked up to be. All of the high level decisions are made by executives employed by your client, not from the attorneys that represent them. No doubt the attorneys provide valuable insight and explain risks, but at the end of the day the challenging and professionally rewarding opportunities are enjoyed by the business leaders, not their attorneys. Plus, there's no stock options in law.

Last thought. If you are a JD/MBA you will be appalled at what passes for professional writing in the business world. MBAs, generally speaking, can't write worth shit. And if you can speak numbers and run Excel sheets with them, you have a distinct competitive advantage because you can handle the qualitative and quantitative aspects of the business world. Most MBAs can't do the qualitative analysis.

I'm gonna PM you because I'm STRONGLY considering the JD/MBA route. I read N'Western's program lets you get it in 3 years as well so they've risen to the top of my list. I'm a 0L applying in this upcoming cycle. It seems like the MBA attachment gives you a vast amount of opportunity you wouldn't otherwise be afforded with simply a JD & perhaps OP would be in a more flexible decision if he had that extra degree as well.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Someone has to make it on pro sports teams too but that doesn't mean that you should plan on it because you're OK at basketball...

Good point, but if you're graduating from HLS, other T-14, who is really out competing you out there? For the general public that analogy works, but if someone is starting on Kansas/Kentucky's basketball team then their dream of going to the NBA is a hell of a lot more tangible than Joe Blow who goes to Charleston.

[rpupkin]

Read some but not all...sorry if already asked/discussed.

I'm definitely not some dreamy-eyed law student, I know Biglaw is Biglaw and it sucks, but any correlation to the fact that OP works at a V3? Is it the same everywhere or will people at V20....V50....etc...say any different?

It's very hard to generalize, but I'd say that--as a crude generalization--the higher the Vault ranking, the worse the experience is for the associate.

What do the V20 firms have in common? With a couple of exceptions, they have high profits per partner, high leverage, big clients with complicated matters/cases, and high billing rates. All of those things are great for partners, but at least most of those things are bad for associates.

As you get further down the Vault rankings, you'll find more firms with relatively humane environments and more substantive opportunities for associates. It also helps to be outside of NYC.

Again, this is a crude generalization. You'll find exceptions on both ends of the Vault scale.

[lawlorbust]

The OP is 100% accurate. I appreciate the brutal honesty. I strongly encourage all 1Ls or 2Ls reading this thread to do the JD/MBA program unless they are dead set on criminal practice or government work.

I did a JD/MBA program -- (both the law school and b-school are top 25-30ish, so nothing special, but certainly within an acceptable range) -- and it was, by far, the best career move I've ever made. The OP is right -- the premise that a JD opens many doors is flat wrong. Perhaps that was true decades ago, but it certainly is not true today. And, for some reason, the MBA is presently perceived as being a very versatile degree, akin to an utility infielder in baseball. But the quality of education from law school (e.g., learning how to think critically, writing in crisp, short sentences, and being forced to see all sides of an issue and ultimately give an opinion) was far more valuable than the education from b school (I was a finance and accounting undergrad and worked for a F500 company in their accounting group prior to grad school, so perhaps this explains my thoughts as I had a strong foundation in numbers and Excel).

I worked for a reputable regional firm, and really enjoyed my time there. I left because I was able to leverage my experience as an attorney (I am particularly good at client development, and was spending 1/3 of my billable hours on work that I originated organically by my third year of practice) into a boutique consulting opportunity. I regularly had headhunters contacting me about business opportunities because of my unique educational background. Let me be clear; I am not a genius or anyone that is off the charts smart. Far from it. But I do work my ass off, I'm excellent with clients, and I always deliver on my promises.

For those that have an interest in business, or want to think strategically and drive results, a law firm setting is not for you. And, as the OP noted, a corporate practice is not nearly as sexy as it is cracked up to be. All of the high level decisions are made by executives employed by your client, not from the attorneys that represent them. No doubt the attorneys provide valuable insight and explain risks, but at the end of the day the challenging and professionally rewarding opportunities are enjoyed by the business leaders, not their attorneys. Plus, there's no stock options in law.

Last thought. If you are a JD/MBA you will be appalled at what passes for professional writing in the business world. MBAs, generally speaking, can't write worth shit. And if you can speak numbers and run Excel sheets with them, you have a distinct competitive advantage because you can handle the qualitative and quantitative aspects of the business world. Most MBAs can't do the qualitative analysis.

Glad it worked out for you, but "get a JD/MBA" has to be TERRIBLE general advice. If you're interested in business, get a MBA and don't waste 2 years on the JD. If you're interested in law, having a MBA will do nothing for you.

[smaug]

Someone has to make it on pro sports teams too but that doesn't mean that you should plan on it because you're OK at basketball...

Good point, but if you're graduating from HLS, other T-14, who is really out competing you out there? For the general public that analogy works, but if someone is starting on Kansas/Kentucky's basketball team then their dream of going to the NBA is a hell of a lot more tangible than Joe Blow who goes to Charleston.

I think you should compare the number of lawyers with T14 degrees to the number of government lawyers and you'll have your answer.

[zot1]

The government path is so messed up.

Competition is high so people tell you not to plan on it.

But if you don't have a resume to support your public service commitment, you won't get a government job.

Moral of the story: our profession sucks.

[MyNameIsntJames]

True lol. I mean someone has to be getting these government jobs though, right? And I can't imagine that you just have 0 options whatsoever after you leave BigLaw

I went to a shitty law school, so obviously this is anecdotal. But at least the first 5 people I met who had worked/did work biglaw were doc reviewers who were laid off from Latham and Winston and Strawn.

Then I did the math and realized that a good number of the legal writing professors were also ex-biglaw associates who were adjuncting for these classes probably making 15k a semester. A couple of them left for government jobs in various capacities (working at courts as attorney advisors or clerks, city government roles). None of these jobs paid over 100k. Most probably paid around 55k with cost of living (1%-2.5%) raises every year.

There really is some truth to the theory that failed biglaw flameouts end up in similarly shitty positions as TTT grads who hustle and ladder up from shitlaw gig to shitlaw gig.

Obviously, there are great outcomes for some attorneys that go in house and work 50 hour weeks to make hefty 6 figure salaries, but it's definitely not the rule.

There has to be some way for someone to forge a path into an in-house law position. I know you have to be in BigLaw first & foremost. Does it come down to networking? Something tells me getting into in house is a lot bigger than credentials or everybody in T-5 would be able to feasibly transition.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Someone has to make it on pro sports teams too but that doesn't mean that you should plan on it because you're OK at basketball...

Good point, but if you're graduating from HLS, other T-14, who is really out competing you out there? For the general public that analogy works, but if someone is starting on Kansas/Kentucky's basketball team then their dream of going to the NBA is a hell of a lot more tangible than Joe Blow who goes to Charleston.

I think you should compare the number of lawyers with T14 degrees to the number of government lawyers and you'll have your answer.

But not every T14 lawyer is vying for a gov job in the same way that not every D1 basketball player is gonna enter the draft.

[smaug]

Thanks for telling me that. I'll tell all my coworkers and friends.

[rpupkin]

But not every T14 lawyer is vying for a gov job in the same way that not every D1 basketball player is gonna enter the draft.

Right, because D1 basketball players make 3X what NBA players make. Your analogy is spot-on.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Alright so I'll drop the gov option for now. It seems like that it is really difficult & enough people are saying it to where I'm not gonna question it. What do you all think about the JD/MBA path?

[smaug]

Alright so I'll drop the gov option for now. It seems like that it is really difficult & enough people are saying it to where I'm not gonna question it. What do you all think about the JD/MBA path?

expensive but maybe not dumb if you have enough business experience to make it work

ETA: at a school with a good b-school.

[MyNameIsntJames]

But not every T14 lawyer is vying for a gov job in the same way that not every D1 basketball player is gonna enter the draft.

Right, because D1 basketball players make 3X what NBA players make. Your analogy is spot-on.

I'm not the one who started with the NBA analogy, don't be stupid. And pay has nothing to do with it. I'm saying the LIKELIHOOD of a D1 player entering the NBA is probably more comparable to the chances of a lawyer in BigLaw getting into gov from a T14. If the chances are better than that's even better. #ReadBetweenTheLines