UVA Law Students Taking Questions Forum

[5ky]

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

so brave


Losing Laycock will be a shame. But aside from that, I am quite sure nobody will remember this in 6 months. Faculty and (some?) students are upset, because that's what people do on college campuses. Larry Sabato is making an ass of himself on twitter.

[Largo219]

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

so brave


Losing Laycock will be a shame. But aside from that, I am quite sure nobody will remember this in 6 months. Faculty and (some?) students are upset, because that's what people do on college campuses. Larry Sabato is making an ass of himself on twitter.

Yes, he really is.

Rector Dragas' response was pretty convincing. If President Sullivan had that list and still decided on the very incremental (seems to be the trendy word right now) plan for change that was submitted, then her resignation seems more than justified. The current model of higher education is completely out of date, but it is not surprising that those with the most to lose, tenured university professors, are fighting tooth and nail against deep structural change. The same thing is happening in countless industries across the country.

[StanleyF]

Is there any feeling among students that the BOV/President's dismissal will lead to law faculty resignations or substantial effects on the law school?

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

For what it's worth, I don't agree with my two classmates above, but it's not worth arguing the merits of the president's firing here.

From a selfish perspective, I'm a rising 3L, so by the time the fallout of this hits the law school, I'll be long gone. But the law school turns over a lot of money to the university every year and has an annual fight with the school about what constitutes a fair contribution; the university always wants more, the law school always wants to give less. Every dollar that goes from the law school to UVa is money that comes out of law school students' pockets, yet law school students get zero benefit from the dollars spent. The law school has been able to pay this tithe to the university because law schools generally can charge very high tuition because their students have historically had reasonable expectations of paying off very expensive loans. Those expectations are changing (see the recent NALP and ABA employment stats).

Everything I've seen from the board of visitors has suggested it wants UVa to become more "self sufficient." That means higher tuition, less state/federal subsidies. The politics won't allow higher tuition for undergrads. So it's not hard to imagine UVa calling on the law school for an even larger annual contribution. That means higher tuition for law students, even as the legal economy has changed and graduates are not as likely to get those high paying jobs as they once were.

So, yes, there is reason to worry, especially if you are an incoming student. And, on top of it, UVa Law's reputation is somewhat tied to UVa's reputation which--regardless of what my classmates above think--is taking a serious hit nationally right now.

[dixon02]

Is LRW pretty much all Westlaw / online database driven or is a substantial portion based on familiarity with print resources, digests, etc. ? Anything us 0Ls can do now to save some time and headache mid-semester?

You do the first memo using print, then start using West/Lexis later for the major memo. They walk you through the whole thing. Personally, I don't think 0Ls should be doing absolutely anything besides enjoying the hell out of themselves before law school. But if you do insist on doing prepping, spend your energy on something besides a pass/fail class.

[Largo219]

Is there any feeling among students that the BOV/President's dismissal will lead to law faculty resignations or substantial effects on the law school?

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

For what it's worth, I don't agree with my two classmates above, but it's not worth arguing the merits of the president's firing here.

From a selfish perspective, I'm a rising 3L, so by the time the fallout of this hits the law school, I'll be long gone. But the law school turns over a lot of money to the university every year and has an annual fight with the school about what constitutes a fair contribution; the university always wants more, the law school always wants to give less. Every dollar that goes from the law school to UVa is money that comes out of law school students' pockets, yet law school students get zero benefit from the dollars spent. The law school has been able to pay this tithe to the university because law schools generally can charge very high tuition because their students have historically had reasonable expectations of paying off very expensive loans. Those expectations are changing (see the recent NALP and ABA employment stats).

Everything I've seen from the board of visitors has suggested it wants UVa to become more "self sufficient." That means higher tuition, less state/federal subsidies. The politics won't allow higher tuition for undergrads. So it's not hard to imagine UVa calling on the law school for an even larger annual contribution. That means higher tuition for law students, even as the legal economy has changed and graduates are not as likely to get those high paying jobs as they once were.

So, yes, there is reason to worry, especially if you are an incoming student. And, on top of it, UVa Law's reputation is somewhat tied to UVa's reputation which--regardless of what my classmates above think--is taking a serious hit nationally right now.

This makes a lot of sense. And I didn't say that there isn't reason to worry, just that the actions seem justified.

[chem]

Is there any feeling among students that the BOV/President's dismissal will lead to law faculty resignations or substantial effects on the law school?

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

For what it's worth, I don't agree with my two classmates above, but it's not worth arguing the merits of the president's firing here.

From a selfish perspective, I'm a rising 3L, so by the time the fallout of this hits the law school, I'll be long gone. But the law school turns over a lot of money to the university every year and has an annual fight with the school about what constitutes a fair contribution; the university always wants more, the law school always wants to give less. Every dollar that goes from the law school to UVa is money that comes out of law school students' pockets, yet law school students get zero benefit from the dollars spent. The law school has been able to pay this tithe to the university because law schools generally can charge very high tuition because their students have historically had reasonable expectations of paying off very expensive loans. Those expectations are changing (see the recent NALP and ABA employment stats).

Everything I've seen from the board of visitors has suggested it wants UVa to become more "self sufficient." That means higher tuition, less state/federal subsidies. The politics won't allow higher tuition for undergrads. So it's not hard to imagine UVa calling on the law school for an even larger annual contribution. That means higher tuition for law students, even as the legal economy has changed and graduates are not as likely to get those high paying jobs as they once were.

So, yes, there is reason to worry, especially if you are an incoming student. And, on top of it, UVa Law's reputation is somewhat tied to UVa's reputation which--regardless of what my classmates above think--is taking a serious hit nationally right now.

This makes a lot of sense. And I didn't say that there isn't reason to worry, just that the actions seem justified.

Reason to worry? Maybe, probably. But here we are in a recession, legal market still not where it used to be. This seems to me a small concern compared to other issues facing law students, even UVA law students. Especially for incoming 1L's, if your in for an ounce might as well be for a pound, and roll the dice, since thats what it is

Disclaimer: Rum, a decent amount

[dailygrind]

If state funding is dipping as hard as they claim it is, I have a hard time seeing how the politics will prevent them from charging more to UVA undergrads. Virginian undergrads are charged 12k or so for tuition, vs. out of staters who pay 37k (LinkRemoved). Meanwhile Virginians make up about 70% of the 15k undergrad population. Even a $5k increase in the tuition Virginian undergrads are paying (to, you know, less than half of what the out of staters are paying) would be like $50M in additional revenue each year.

Meanwhile, I really don't think they can charge much more to the law students. The top schools all charge roughly the same amount of money, and if we deviate from that substantially we'll be uncompetitive. They wouldn't gain much from it either, since we're a relatively small number of students (1000 or so) in comparison to the undergrads. I guess they could squeeze us for another 2-3k, mayyybe 5k per year if they wanted to, but I doubt it would be more than that.

[jkpolk]

[StanleyF]

Is LRW pretty much all Westlaw / online database driven or is a substantial portion based on familiarity with print resources, digests, etc. ? Anything us 0Ls can do now to save some time and headache mid-semester?

You do the first memo using print, then start using West/Lexis later for the major memo. They walk you through the whole thing. Personally, I don't think 0Ls should be doing absolutely anything besides enjoying the hell out of themselves before law school. But if you do insist on doing prepping, spend your energy on something besides a pass/fail class.

Agree with every word of this, except for the "if you insist on prepping" part. Don't prep. It's completely unnecessary. And "Legal Research and Writing" should really just be called "Legal Writing." The research component is a really small part of the class. You'll want to take Advanced Legal Research your 2L or 3L year, which should really just be called "Legal Research."

[vamedic03]

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

so brave


Losing Laycock will be a shame. But aside from that, I am quite sure nobody will remember this in 6 months. Faculty and (some?) students are upset, because that's what people do on college campuses. Larry Sabato is making an ass of himself on twitter.

Yes, he really is.

Rector Dragas' response was pretty convincing. If President Sullivan had that list and still decided on the very incremental (seems to be the trendy word right now) plan for change that was submitted, then her resignation seems more than justified. The current model of higher education is completely out of date, but it is not surprising that those with the most to lose, tenured university professors, are fighting tooth and nail against deep structural change. The same thing is happening in countless industries across the country.

As a recent ('12) law grad and as a UVa undergrad, I have to say that the BOV and Rector Dragas are 100% incorrect. Dragas's statement simply laid out the obvious - UVa faces challenges that have been developing over the past decade. Her statement utterly fails to make a case for why President Sullivan needed to be removed. Indeed, if anyone read President Sullivan's strategic memo from May, they would have seen a much more articulate explanation of the same troubles.

Rather, the BOV and Rector Dragas have failed the University. Their job is to be good stewards. Before making a rather rapid decision to fire the brand new president, they should have gauged the reaction of the stakeholders (the students, faculty, and alumni). Their utter inability to handle the PR fallout demonstrates their incompetence. It is telling that: (a) every school dean of the University of Virginia has called upon Rector Dragas to resign and to reinstate Sullivan (the soon-to-be interim President, dean of the McIntire school of commerce was left off out of concerns of putting him in a bad position); (b) the faculty senate has called for her resignation; and (c) the alumni comment system crashed within 30 minutes of its opening because of the deep alumni disapproval of this BOV's actions.

This isn't something that's just an issue because it's the summer time. Rather, this is a serious, existential crisis for the University. Two weeks of continuous coverage in every media source in Virginia, uniform editorial board criticism of the decision (including the very conservative and very influential in VA politics, Times Dispatch), and continuous coverage by the Washington Post and New York Times, suggest that this is quite a big deal. When Mortimer Caplin, yes that Caplin, has denounced the BOV's actions, law students should pay attention. And, young alumni (i.e., 2/3 of my facebook friends) are incredibly upset - when they stop giving (which they will), it hurts the rankings.

I am well aware that law students tend to be insulated from most of the University. But, law students should be aware when "something big" is happening at their University.

[joeshmo39]

I was at a Law School alumni reception in DC yesterday where Mahoney took questions. A lot of law alumni asked a lot of probing questions. They seemed genuinely concerned. Who knows what it affects, but the law school does rely on alumni donation a good bit. Don't think the law school can just stand on the sidelines here.

[dixon02]

Looks like they're about to hit the reset button:

http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2012 ... r-2005026/

[berkeleykel06]

Is there any feeling among students that the BOV/President's dismissal will lead to law faculty resignations or substantial effects on the law school?

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

Did you read the email sent out by Mahoney? It's pretty obvious that none of this has any bearing on the law school. PPL back home keep asking me about it and they seriously know more than I do about it. It's no big deal.

What email? I never saw one.

[pjo]

Is there any feeling among students that the BOV/President's dismissal will lead to law faculty resignations or substantial effects on the law school?

The below link makes me a bit nervous...
--LinkRemoved--

Did you read the email sent out by Mahoney? It's pretty obvious that none of this has any bearing on the law school. PPL back home keep asking me about it and they seriously know more than I do about it. It's no big deal.

What email? I never saw one.

He sent out an email like a week ago. If you're an 0L you might not have received one. Anyway, it really didn't say much of anything.

[berkeleykel06]

I'm a rising 3L. I guess this was something sent only to the 2Ls?

[sundance95]

Rising 2L here, and I didn't get it.

[pjo]

Here: June 15, 2012 — Most of you have heard that President Sullivan resigned at the request of the Board of Visitors and have questions about why it happened and what comes next. I first learned about the resignation shortly before the Sunday press release and was as surprised as you are. I do not have any information about the Board’s decision beyond what has been reported.

The Law School is proud to be part of a great national institution and cares about the future of the University and its leadership. We will focus on controlling what we can, which is continuing the Law School’s success in a way that reflects well on the University.

The past week’s events have been personally difficult for the Law School community. Professor Doug Laycock, President Sullivan’s husband, is a deeply valued colleague. The Law School will also be focused in the coming weeks on offering Doug and Terry our continued friendship and support.

Best,
Paul

[Julio_El_Chavo]

Well, this whole President Sullivan thing was bizarre. Over the course of 16 days, the Board of Visitors went from being "resolute" that President Sullivan needed to step down to being totally united in reinstating her.

[pjo]

Any recommendations for who to take Advanced Legal Research with? Thx.

[jimmythecatdied6]

Doherty's reviews seem pretty good. He has eight weekly assignments though, and that may suck with OGI. Anyone care to comment on that? More generally, what are the best classes to take fall 2L?

[Largo219]

I still can't believe the board caved and reinstated Sullivan...

[dixon02]

I still can't believe the board caved and reinstated Sullivan...

You can't believe it? It was inevitable for nearly a week before it happened. The various coalitions (faculty, students, donors) made it so that any other outcome was implausible. No desirable candidate would have been willing to take the job, and the BOV would have been left explaining how the university was better off settling for someone not qualified for the job. Once the interim president withdrew, the outcome was decided.

[bluecrab5448]

Doherty's reviews seem pretty good. He has eight weekly assignments though, and that may suck with OGI. Anyone care to comment on that? More generally, what are the best classes to take fall 2L?

+1. Is trial advocacy a good idea?

[005618502]

Looking at different lap tops. Was thinking about just buying a Dell Latitude. The base model goes for 499.99. Only thing is, it only has a 250gb hard drive and a 2gb memory. Is this enough? You can bump up both these things but then it gets into the 800 range and at that point I would just buy the bundle (Mac I think) for conveinance.

Any input would be great, was hoping to save a couple 100 bucks, but would hate for it to hurt me at all.
(oh and I get an additional 17% off the price)

[Law Sauce]

Looking at different lap tops. Was thinking about just buying a Dell Latitude. The base model goes for 499.99. Only thing is, it only has a 250gb hard drive and a 2gb memory. Is this enough? You can bump up both these things but then it gets into the 800 range and at that point I would just buy the bundle (Mac I think) for conveinance.

Any input would be great, was hoping to save a couple 100 bucks, but would hate for it to hurt me at all.
(oh and I get an additional 17% off the price)

If you are just talking about law school purposes. What computer you get is very close to irrelevant. All you need is a word processor with a decent keyboard that has enough memory to hold about 100 documents. So Im sure the minimum package is fine. Personally I have a macbook and so do (probably) most people. It never has issues and is overall a great computer. I'd recommending getting one, but a cheaper dell is not going to hurt you in the least.