So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[Johann]

Question: If making partner has very little to do with your actual legal skills, then who are the "experts" who handle legal cases? Like where does the biglaw equivalent of Floyd Abrams come from?

Legal concepts are not hard to master. Because of that, everything just kind of becomes office politics like who has the best client relationships which comes from who worked with what partners which comes back to random staffing assignments. It's a giant crapshoot where everyone has the brain power to thrive regarding the legal tools necessary and almost noone has the tools to survive let alone thrive in the office politics/social power game.
It's basically like trying to pick a valedictorian among college educated people doing 6th grade work.

[BernieTrump]

.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There's also a whole industry around leaving academia advice/consulting/coaching etc.

[Aeon]

Question: If making partner has very little to do with your actual legal skills, then who are the "experts" who handle legal cases?

Senior associates.

[Doubting Law]

Well this is an encouraging thread.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

After reading your post, it makes me think twice going to a law school. If being in a law firm is really miserable, what is life like being an in house lawyer at a company? Do they have dreadful long hours and intrusive schedule like yours? Is there big difference in salary going in house?

It depends - sometimes in house is just as bad as biglaw, or worse (think Amazon, lol); other times it's better.

IMO all corporate work is dry as donkey balls though, so you will be bored out of your mind unless you're lying to yourself. Substantively, I think criminal law, family law, etc. are all much more interesting.

[Cynic]

Question: If making partner has very little to do with your actual legal skills, then who are the "experts" who handle legal cases?

Senior associates.

Wait... Why do people spend so much hiring big name law firms if most of the actual work is done by senior associates seven years out of law school? What do partners spend all their time doing?

[Aeon]

Question: If making partner has very little to do with your actual legal skills, then who are the "experts" who handle legal cases?

Senior associates.

Wait... Why do people spend so much hiring big name law firms if most of the actual work is done by senior associates seven years out of law school? What do partners spend all their time doing?

I was being flippant, since most partners do in fact do some legal work, make strategic decisions, review associates' work, etc. But a major portion of their time partners spend maintaining and bringing in new business. At the same time, pretty much all the grunt work is done by associates, with senior associates tying it all together and frequently bringing it to completion.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Question: If making partner has very little to do with your actual legal skills, then who are the "experts" who handle legal cases?

Senior associates.

Wait... Why do people spend so much hiring big name law firms if most of the actual work is done by senior associates seven years out of law school? What do partners spend all their time doing?

1) Same reason you hire MBB/buy a brand name/invest in a global macro fund etc. etc. - you're way less likely to be fired if STB messes up than if budget law firm XYZ does;
2) Partners generally do less grudge work, less work in general and stick toward high level/relationship building work;
3) When you say legal cases, you make it sound more like litigation, where lawyer's are actually the top dog... this is the wrong thread for that... institutional knowledge, forms, relationships with the SEC, etc. get built up overtime at elite firms, but little (if any) of this work needs to be done by any one partner; and
4) similar to 2, a partner's job is to retain and build work for the firm (law is a business, not a very interesting business model, but a business nonetheless).

Between year 2 and 7, you'll probably have enough substantive knowledge to handle legal issues, but maybe not enough to know how that particular client would like their legal issues handled.

And as far as the actual OP, I mean, man he's just crazy to stick to one firm for 8 years and act like he's completely trapped, I'm sure he's hung up on 1,000's of recruiters--but he's not lying that corporate law should not be anyone's first career choice. And as someone who hates corporate law, one pro-family issue is that corporate law has extremely minimal traveling compared to most consulting and PE jobs, so I guess that can be a plus, though the work-life-comp balance is way out of whack and unlike other careers, it never really gets that much better or more interesting until retirement.

[Cynic]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

[Danger Zone]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

Frankly, that sounds fucking awesome. You should do it.

[mvp99]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

Nigeria?

[Cynic]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

Nigeria?

Ivory Coast.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

If you can get this job, then you can probably get one paying 60-85 with a high growth rate in a safer environment. But everyone I know goes to East Africa, so noted this is not the expat in Uganda life.

Basically your opportunity is not at all a direct comparable. My personal feeling is that you should go to law school for monetary reasons if you can't otherwise get a job that would pay 200-300K in the long run with your existing credentials.

Lawyers focus so much on starting salary, but I don't care what a first year associate makes, you're only a first year for 1-year (and I'll tell you, it came, it went, I immediately spent everything that I saved when I left NYC).

[TheoO]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

This sounds like a really interesting experience, honestly, and you can always go to law school afterward, and make you a pretty attractive candidate (if your numbers are adequate) or Bschool (I imagine). Just for the experience, this sounds great though.

[Budfox55]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

This sounds like a really interesting experience, honestly, and you can always go to law school afterward, and make you a pretty attractive candidate (if your numbers are adequate) or Bschool (I imagine). Just for the experience, this sounds great though.

Are you KJD? If so, I would 100% go. That may be a once in a lifetime opportunity and law school will aways be there. Going to go on a little bit of a tangent, but I would echo this for any KJDs reading this. I'm a 0l myself and have been working for 2 years, but I've been able to do some really cool stuff during that time. I've really learned a lot about myself which I think will help a lot with what I want to do with my legal education. Had I gone straight through, I probably would have ended up in the same position as the OP. You also just become a different person during that time. Think about the difference between you heading into your frosh year of college and you heading into junior year of college.

[star fox]

How often do corp. associates end up having to cancel vacations due to deals coming up? Is it like a 10 % chance, 25 % chance, 50 % chance... greater? Just a rough estimation is fine.

Thanks

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

How often do corp. associates end up having to cancel vacations due to deals coming up? Is it like a 10 % chance, 25 % chance, 50 % chance... greater? Just a rough estimation is fine.

Thanks

Not traditional corp, but I have never canceled a vacation. I have had conference calls with clients on Christmas Day on vacation, and they were also all on vacation (usually somewhere nicer than me), but never canceled.

What I have had to cancel and for a time had to cease doing all together is making plans in my normal day-to-day life. I can't say for certainty at 4pm that I can make a 10:00pm dinner. I can't say for certain on a slow day at 4:30pm that I'll leave the office in 15 minutes. I can't even say for certain when going to sleep that at 9:00am the next day that I can start on a project. I can't buy tickets to a game the day of and know that I'll make 1st period... I think you get the picture.

[star fox]

How often do corp. associates end up having to cancel vacations due to deals coming up? Is it like a 10 % chance, 25 % chance, 50 % chance... greater? Just a rough estimation is fine.

Thanks

Not traditional corp, but I have never canceled a vacation. I have had conference calls with clients on Christmas Day on vacation, and they were also all on vacation (usually somewhere nicer than me), but never canceled.

What I have had to cancel and for a time had to cease doing all together is making plans in my normal day-to-day life. I can't say for certainty at 4pm that I can make a 10:00pm dinner. I can't say for certain on a slow day at 4:30pm that I'll leave the office in 15 minutes. I can't even say for certain when going to sleep that at 9:00am the next day that I can start on a project. I can't buy tickets to a game the day of and know that I'll make 1st period... I think you get the picture.

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

[Danger Zone]

How often do corp. associates end up having to cancel vacations due to deals coming up? Is it like a 10 % chance, 25 % chance, 50 % chance... greater? Just a rough estimation is fine.

Thanks

Not traditional corp, but I have never canceled a vacation. I have had conference calls with clients on Christmas Day on vacation, and they were also all on vacation (usually somewhere nicer than me), but never canceled.

What I have had to cancel and for a time had to cease doing all together is making plans in my normal day-to-day life. I can't say for certainty at 4pm that I can make a 10:00pm dinner. I can't say for certain on a slow day at 4:30pm that I'll leave the office in 15 minutes. I can't even say for certain when going to sleep that at 9:00am the next day that I can start on a project. I can't buy tickets to a game the day of and know that I'll make 1st period... I think you get the picture.

Ugh. Ditto. Luckily most corp work can be done remotely, so I don't foresee myself ever canceling a vacation either.

[TheoO]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

This sounds like a really interesting experience, honestly, and you can always go to law school afterward, and make you a pretty attractive candidate (if your numbers are adequate) or Bschool (I imagine). Just for the experience, this sounds great though.

Are you KJD? If so, I would 100% go. That may be a once in a lifetime opportunity and law school will aways be there. Going to go on a little bit of a tangent, but I would echo this for any KJDs reading this. I'm a 0l myself and have been working for 2 years, but I've been able to do some really cool stuff during that time. I've really learned a lot about myself which I think will help a lot with what I want to do with my legal education. Had I gone straight through, I probably would have ended up in the same position as the OP. You also just become a different person during that time. Think about the difference between you heading into your frosh year of college and you heading into junior year of college.

I honestly think schools should make bigger barriers to KJDs. It really isn't a good idea to go straight through. Schools should really try and get students to explore their options more and to see what is available. You may find a passion along the way, and one that may not need $60k a year for three years to enter into.

[Cynic]

Well, my motivation for wanting to go to law school was basically that I don't know what I want do with my life at 22 and the job market looks terrible. I just figured that maybe I'll know what I'm doing at 25 and having a T14 law degree would make the job market un-terrible for me and guarantee a stable and lucrative future.

Based on this thread, these seem like bad reasons.

[jbagelboy]

So let's say I had an opportunity to work in a management level position in a company in a West African country... Starting salary would be somewhere in the six figures straight out of college. (Not a hypothetical.)

Would it be crazy to take that offer instead of going to law school? It's just the location/danger which is scaring me away.

This sounds like a really interesting experience, honestly, and you can always go to law school afterward, and make you a pretty attractive candidate (if your numbers are adequate) or Bschool (I imagine). Just for the experience, this sounds great though.

Are you KJD? If so, I would 100% go. That may be a once in a lifetime opportunity and law school will aways be there. Going to go on a little bit of a tangent, but I would echo this for any KJDs reading this. I'm a 0l myself and have been working for 2 years, but I've been able to do some really cool stuff during that time. I've really learned a lot about myself which I think will help a lot with what I want to do with my legal education. Had I gone straight through, I probably would have ended up in the same position as the OP. You also just become a different person during that time. Think about the difference between you heading into your frosh year of college and you heading into junior year of college.

I mean, management position in what? If it's for like Arcelor Mittal or some energy conglomerate, you might want to think about the impact on the local population and whether you can live with yourself being involved in sketchy/extortive activity in west africa. I worked on some mining projects in the region before law school and eventually I asked to transfer because it can be a harrowing experience, both morally and physically. So yea, obviously work experience is better than going to law school and that sounds like a great salary, just remember there are other considerations here too.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I mean, management position in what? If it's for like Arcelor Mittal or some energy conglomerate, you might want to think about the impact on the local population and whether you can live with yourself being involved in sketchy/extortive activity in west africa. I worked on some mining projects in the region before law school and eventually I asked to transfer because it can be a harrowing experience, both morally and physically. So yea, obviously work experience is better than going to law school and that sounds like a great salary, just remember there are other considerations here too.

LOL thank God you talked him out of that. Now he can go into Biglaw, where instead he'll spend the day helping billion-dollar corporations exploit loopholes to skirt the obvious intent of tax and regulatory laws, and never have to worry about that "sketchy/extortive activity" again.

[zot1]

The problem with leaving BigLaw, in my opinion, is that for some people, giving up the money will be hard because it's very easy to get used to a certain lifestyle. This becomes increasingly worse if you have a family because why would you want to be the reason why your kids went from good grades in private school to getting beat up in public school? The associates I've seen living BigLaw were all single. The ones I know who have a family are still grinding. This is all anecdotal, of course.