Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[Mr. Elshal]

How do KJDs fare in OCI? With good grades? With average grades? Etc.

Sorry if this is an extremely broad question.

I will echo the sentiment that this is not the time to worry about that. EIP outcomes shouldn't have an effect on your grades. Just get the best grades you can and then worry about EIP when it comes.

To answer your question, though, I didn't see much meaningful difference in outcomes between friends who were KJD and friends who worked before law school. However, predictable differences arose when there were KJDs who didn't know how to act in a professional setting (although this impact was the same on people with work experience who had similarly poor conceptions of how to act in professional settings), and where KJDs had less work experience to talk about in interviews (which should be a minimal effect, given that EIP is after 1L summer jobs).

Really, there is no position that will be out of your reach solely because you are KJD. It will only impact you if there are skills you haven't developed because you are KJD, but that same lack of skills will hurt people with work experience just the same.

[094320]

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[Mr. Elshal]

Does anyone have a sense of the different styles of the Legal Profession professors (and recommendations of who to take)?

The teachers for next year are:
Annette Gordon-Reed
Timothy Dacey
David Luban
Andrew Kaufman
Michele DeStefano
Jeanne Charn

[KaNa1986]

How do KJDs fare in OCI? With good grades? With average grades? Etc.

Sorry if this is an extremely broad question.

I will echo the sentiment that this is not the time to worry about that. EIP outcomes shouldn't have an effect on your grades. Just get the best grades you can and then worry about EIP when it comes.

To answer your question, though, I didn't see much meaningful difference in outcomes between friends who were KJD and friends who worked before law school. However, predictable differences arose when there were KJDs who didn't know how to act in a professional setting (although this impact was the same on people with work experience who had similarly poor conceptions of how to act in professional settings), and where KJDs had less work experience to talk about in interviews (which should be a minimal effect, given that EIP is after 1L summer jobs).

Really, there is no position that will be out of your reach solely because you are KJD. It will only impact you if there are skills you haven't developed because you are KJD, but that same lack of skills will hurt people with work experience just the same.

The very top corporate firms seem to look favorably upon finance/business/consulting/accounting work experience prior to law school.

[robotrick]

Regarding clinic credits - do the associated seminar/class credits count towards the 12 credit clinic maximum or are those counted as classroom credits?

So, if I sign up for a 4 credit clinic and the required 2 credit course, is that 4 or 6 clinical credits?

[o0o0o0o]

Regarding clinic credits - do the associated seminar/class credits count towards the 12 credit clinic maximum or are those counted as classroom credits?

So, if I sign up for a 4 credit clinic and the required 2 credit course, is that 4 or 6 clinical credits?

4 credits.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

How do KJDs fare in OCI? With good grades? With average grades? Etc.

Sorry if this is an extremely broad question.

I will echo the sentiment that this is not the time to worry about that. EIP outcomes shouldn't have an effect on your grades. Just get the best grades you can and then worry about EIP when it comes.

To answer your question, though, I didn't see much meaningful difference in outcomes between friends who were KJD and friends who worked before law school. However, predictable differences arose when there were KJDs who didn't know how to act in a professional setting (although this impact was the same on people with work experience who had similarly poor conceptions of how to act in professional settings), and where KJDs had less work experience to talk about in interviews (which should be a minimal effect, given that EIP is after 1L summer jobs).

Really, there is no position that will be out of your reach solely because you are KJD. It will only impact you if there are skills you haven't developed because you are KJD, but that same lack of skills will hurt people with work experience just the same.

The very top corporate firms seem to look favorably upon finance/business/consulting/accounting work experience prior to law school.

Sure, they may look favorably on relevant WE, but that fact isn't really relevant to the question blueberry rumble seems to be interested in, which is whether KJD status is harmful to chances of landing a firm job. I think Mr. Elshal's post is exactly on point in that regard. KJD status is genraloy hsrmful only to the extent that you may not be as capable of carrying yourself in a professional environment and that you may not be as knowledgeable as others about certain practice areas (and thus less capable of carrying a good conversation about a particular practice area). However, both of these disadvantages can be overcome by general self awareness and a little bit of research wrt practice areas (note: research that can and should be done only after finals are over).

I recognize my post may seem like hair splitting, but I don't want to leave blueberry crumble with the (false) impression that KJDs somehow have an uphill battle at EIP. If they do well first year and can behave professionally (as I assime they can), then they'll almost certainly land a great SA job.

[jimmymac]

Does anyone have experience with professor Bebchuk? considering doing research for him this summer

[Doorkeeper]

Does anyone have a sense of the different styles of the Legal Profession professors (and recommendations of who to take)?

The teachers for next year are:
Annette Gordon-Reed
Timothy Dacey
David Luban
Andrew Kaufman
Michele DeStefano
Jeanne Charn

Take Charn. Never go to class. Write a 20 page group paper. Never look back.

I guess Luban if you actually are intellectually interested in legal ethics.

[robotrick]

My last question regarding course selection I hope:

There are a few classes that require instructor permission to take. How does selection work for those? Do you still do the regular preference process for them or is it bypassed somehow?

[lawschool22]

My last question regarding course selection I hope:

There are a few classes that require instructor permission to take. How does selection work for those? Do you still do the regular preference process for them or is it bypassed somehow?

My understanding is that you do not preference it.

[Fred Norris]

I am wondering if you any of you HLS students/grads could name a single instance in which the Harvard name gave you an edge over someone who went to Y or S?

I dunno - maybe you were doing business is Bhutan and were competing for a contract against someone who went to Yale and the Bhutanese knew Harvard but not Yale or Stanford.

It might seem like I am joking, but I am not. My suspicion is that HLS lay prestige (vs. the other 2) is functionally worthless.

[mono172000]

I am wondering if you any of you HLS students/grads could name a single instance in which the Harvard name gave you an edge over someone who went to Y or S?

I dunno - maybe you were doing business is Bhutan and were competing for a contract against someone who went to Yale and the Bhutanese knew Harvard but not Yale or Stanford.

It might seem like I am joking, but I am not. My suspicion is that HLS lay prestige (vs. the other 2) is functionally worthless.

It's my understanding from talking to a few practicing lawyers in more insular/provincial markets in the southeast that the Harvard brand carries more weight in that region, at least compared to Stanford. I've heard from quite a few lawyers that since these firms don't have much experience with students from these schools anyway, they're not as acutely attuned to the rankings and therefore don't always give Stanford its due, relative to Harvard or Yale. All anecdotal, obviously. I have no idea if it's true or not.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

I am wondering if you any of you HLS students/grads could name a single instance in which the Harvard name gave you an edge over someone who went to Y or S?

I dunno - maybe you were doing business is Bhutan and were competing for a contract against someone who went to Yale and the Bhutanese knew Harvard but not Yale or Stanford.

It might seem like I am joking, but I am not. My suspicion is that HLS lay prestige (vs. the other 2) is functionally worthless.

It's my understanding from talking to a few practicing lawyers in more insular/provincial markets in the southeast that the Harvard brand carries more weight in that region, at least compared to Stanford. I've heard from quite a few lawyers that since these firms don't have much experience with students from these schools anyway, they're not as acutely attuned to the rankings and therefore don't always give Stanford its due, relative to Harvard or Yale. All anecdotal, obviously. I have no idea if it's true or not.

This has been my experience as well. I think the HLS brand is better-regarded than YLS and SLS both by the general public and in many legal markets. I won't bother to flesh out my thoughts, though, because the post to which you responded seems very troll-like and intended only to stir the pot.

[Fred Norris]

This has been my experience as well. I think the HLS brand is better-regarded than YLS and SLS both by the general public and in many legal markets. I won't bother to flesh out my thoughts, though, because the post to which you responded seems very troll-like and intended only to stir the pot.

No, it's actually a sincere question for someone debating between HYS.

I guess PM me if you don't want to share here - and i don't want to go into my details here either.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

This has been my experience as well. I think the HLS brand is better-regarded than YLS and SLS both by the general public and in many legal markets. I won't bother to flesh out my thoughts, though, because the post to which you responded seems very troll-like and intended only to stir the pot.

No, it's actually a sincere question for someone debating between HYS.

I guess PM me if you don't want to share here - and i don't want to go into my details here either.

My apologies then. I was confused by the aggressive tone.

I think the HLS brand is second to none. Having said that, I don't think "prestige" is really important as between HYS. There are no doors that will be closed to you just because you attended one over the other.

If you're deciding between HYS, you should probably be focusing instead on things like employment outcomes (Do you want to clerk? Academia? BigLaw? etc), geographic reach (SLS is the West Coast school, and I get the impression HLS is very well regarded in the South and Southeast), financial considerations, and where you want to spend 3 years of your life.

[094320]

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[tomwatts]

Because HLS is so much larger, the alumni network is broader, which can help if you're interested in a niche field. This has come in handy for me a couple of times.

But there are other, more important differences among the schools.

[bretby]

FWIW Ryan Bubb presented a paper in a seminar I was in and if I were to extrapolate I'd say he'd do a fairly good job.

I just finished the sublet process for my apartment in HUH and I took about a $2500 loss. This was in part because I lowered the rent and my subtenant wasn't staying for the whole time period. Most requests I had were for about 2 months. I lowered my rent because I saw another person listing the same unit in my apartment building for cheaper, so I figured it was appropriate.

HUH sublet is slightly more difficult because they must be a Harvard affiliate.

I never took a loss when I sublet my HUH apartment for the summer, which I did for several years. I suppose it depends on how desirable your apartment is (is it clean, reasonably furnished, etc.), but also, though the subtenant does need to be Harvard affiliated, it helps to advertise beyond the HUH website and just specify Harvard affiliate in the ad. It's surprising how many Harvard affiliates don't know about/don't use the HUH website.

[DoubleChecks]

HLS generally carries more brand recognition abroad and outside of law, but within the U.S. and within law, Yale is recognized as #1 and Stanford edges out Harvard on the west coast, especially in NorCal. Because of a smaller class size, Stanford seems to fare better in many major markets and you're probably better off being at the bottom of Stanford than Harvard. Firms like to reach for some diversity in schools, and they generally don't allot 2x spots for HLS students vs SLS students in recognition of our larger class size. That said, if your goal is just NYC biglaw, the decision should come down to where you think you'll be happier over 3 years of your life (not insignificant length of your 20s/30s!). Making the decision between HLS and SLS on factors like proximity to family, significant other, or preferring Cambridge/Boston or Palo Alto/NorCal is very legit.

The truth.

[Doorkeeper]

I am wondering if you any of you HLS students/grads could name a single instance in which the Harvard name gave you an edge over someone who went to Y or S?

I dunno - maybe you were doing business is Bhutan and were competing for a contract against someone who went to Yale and the Bhutanese knew Harvard but not Yale or Stanford.

It might seem like I am joking, but I am not. My suspicion is that HLS lay prestige (vs. the other 2) is functionally worthless.

HLS definitely dominates DC, especially in the federal government. The network within federal agencies is really strong. YLS definitely has pockets too (ex: DOJ Civil Rights and Treasury), but Stanford is few and far between. SLS is strong in NorCal if you want to stay in SF/SV, but it really weakens in the east.

[fred013]

how many black letter courses should i take 2L?

[Fred Norris]

Thanks guys. A few follow-ups:

1. How important is alumni network? The reason I ask - and I sort of brought this up on another thread - is that the common wisdom is to go to Y instead of H. But if alumni network is so critical, then why would anyone in their right mind go to Yale? I've just become highly skeptical of late regarding the common wisdom. For the record, I do think alumni network is a big deal - which is why I remain skeptical of the Y over H argument.

2. SLS does just as well as Harvard at placing people into Supreme Court clerkships. They are more or less identical, or if you want to be pedantic, SLS has a .01 edge in Leiter's "per capita" calculations. Is really reasonable to imagine that elsewhere in DC, obviously the federal government, SLS would be at a true disadvantage?

I admit that I do not know too much about the whole alumni network thing. I went to a small state school.

I'm not trying to stir the pot - I just want to understand the conventional wisdom.

And I guess it demands noting here - I personally believe as was said before that choosing between HYS comes down to personal preferences. I'm asking merely as a hobbyist.

[fred013]

.

[LawBron James]

Moving away from this, does anybody know anything about the Sports Law Clinic? Is it competitive?