Texas 1L taking questions, 2010-'11 edition Forum

[Rory1987]

Here's a question. How many attending have visited Vandy too?

I just got back from Nashville yesterday after visiting Vandy, and UT won me over hands down (when comparing UT to Vandy). For one thing, Austin≫≫≫≫Nashville. Secondly, the students at Vandy came off as overly preppy/WASPy/bro in a way that no other school has. The polos, boat shoes, colored shorts, etc were everywhere. It just had this vibe that I know personally I wouldn’t like. Texas was more diverse and I feel that anyone could fit in there because there was no “type” or “trend” of student that I witnessed. Vandy’s building was nicer and the campus was amazing. The faculty and career services also seem great (as did UT’s), but as a personal fit, I know I’d prefer UT. Plus, when you compare the deans there is no comparison Go UT.

[Rory1987]

Just got back to Philly after spending the weekend in Austin - hands down I have never taken to a city as quickly as this. I love Austin - and this is coming from someone who has had the good fortune of living all over the world - Manhattan, Atlanta, Paris, Geneva, Mexico, Philly, DC, VA. There is no place more conducive to living and studying law (except maybe the Bay Area, but that dream has died)

I am withdrawing from Georgetown and other offers for which I received scholarships, and I am going to UT. I enjoyed the prospectives I met at the OMV - I hope you all join me in this decision. I thought the relays gave the whole city a fun vibe - it's great to see the energy. 6th street reminded me of Ocean Drive in Miami, or Bourbon St. No shootings, just some brawls, don't be scured. I tried to explore every neighborhood to get a feel for it, as well as talk to as many locals as I could. Everyone loves this place, from the cab drivers to the waiters- and of course our man- Larry Sager. The city was extremely easy to traverse sans automobile, but Ill definitely be bringing the jeep down. I really liked the feel over by west 3rd st. and the south congress area.

What a place. Besides sucking massively- I think law school is going to be great.

You're from Philly? Me too!

[zengyy]

I am wondering how the sections work. Are you assigned to a particular section and can only take the courses for that section, or you have the freedom to choose which professor's class to take if there are more than one professors teaching the same course?

All 1Ls take the same 6 substantive courses during the course of the year: contracts, federal civil procedure, property, torts, criminal law, and constitutional law. 3 of these classes will be taken during the fall and the remaining 3 will be taken during the spring. Different large sections of 100 students will be taking combinations of these courses each semester; one section may be taking contracts, torts, and con law while another section may be taking crim, torts, and property. Even if the sections are taking the same 3 courses in a given semester, they will be taking them with different professors. Also, during both fall and spring semester of your first year, you will be required to take a 2 credit legal research and writing class each semester, which will be taught to your entire large section. You will have the same large section through both semesters of 1L year. You have no choice in professors or class scheduling for your 6 core classes or for your legal research and writing class.

In addition, during the fall semester, one of these 6 classes will be taught in a smaller section of ~25 students, and will be worth 5, rather than 4, credits. This small section will be comprised of approximately 1/4 of the students in the large section

I believe you can, if you want to, take an elective spring semester of 1L year, though I highly recommend against this so you can focus on your other classes. If you do decide to take an elective, you have the freedom to select a course from a list of 1L-permissible courses.

Since my background is science and law school is totally new to me, are there any suggestions on how to prepare for 1L? Maybe some books recommended to read? Thanks.

I recommend reading the first 1/3 or so of Planet Law School and getting the course supplements the book suggests that you obtain. If you read the book, please take its criticisms of the case method with a grain of salt; law school isn't nearly as bad as the book makes it seem. That said, its advice on how to prepare is fairly solid.

I also highly recommend signing up for the LEEWS exam prep program, since it addresses how to take issue-spotter exams, which will be the predominant type of exam you will see at law school. I ended up as Grand Chancellor of the 2011 class and that achievement was due in no small part to the LEEWS program.

The program is especially crucial for people with a scientific background, since some scientists and engineers from very good schools (e.g. MIT, Stanford) do poorly in law school because they don't recognize that the study of law is less about learning facts (which is the case with, say, medical school) and more about learning and applying logic, or they don't recognize that the law may not provide a black-and-white answer in all cases, which is usually the case with math problems, but sometimes a bounded "gray" answer. The LEEWS program and Planet Law School will do a better job at explaining these issues than I will, so I recommend that you take a look at both resources.

Thanks so much, Keayts! Your explanation and insights are really helpful. I will check the resources you recommended.
BTW, when do you know which section you are in (before or after orinentation)? I also saw people recommended these two books: Getting to Maybe, Introduction to the study and practice of law in a nutshell. How do you feel about those two? Thanks so much!

[philosoraptor]

If you read PLS, make sure that grain of salt is enormous. Atticus has some good ideas, but he's too vitriolic and long-winded to be taken seriously.

TLS veterans generally recommend not prepping too much (if at all) for 1L courses. If you decide to do so, just try to get a broad overview of the core subjects. "Law 101" (Feinman) is a quick read that hits some highlights of each area -- should be cheap used.

End of the semester (mid- or late May) might be a good time to sniff around for deals on used E&Es and common supplements, but please don't try to learn from them until you start classes. Instead, enjoy the summer and read only enough to satisfy your curiosity.

[zengyy]

If you read PLS, make sure that grain of salt is enormous. Atticus has some good ideas, but he's too vitriolic and long-winded to be taken seriously.

TLS veterans generally recommend not prepping too much (if at all) for 1L courses. If you decide to do so, just try to get a broad overview of the core subjects. "Law 101" (Feinman) is a quick read that hits some highlights of each area -- should be cheap used.

End of the semester (mid- or late May) might be a good time to sniff around for deals on used E&Es and common supplements, but please don't try to learn from them until you start classes. Instead, enjoy the summer and read only enough to satisfy your curiosity.

Thanks for your advice too! Getting some feelings of what law school and study of law are really like is my goal, since I've been out of school for long time and my major was in science. Truly appreciate it!

[onmytoes812]

Tag.

Just got in today!

After reading some of the earlier posts (October) about jobs, has the outlook changed?

Not sure about money yet, but would it be worth paying full sticker out-of-state to go to Texas?

[japes]

Tag.

Just got in today!

After reading some of the earlier posts (October) about jobs, has the outlook changed?

Not sure about money yet, but would it be worth paying full sticker out-of-state to go to Texas?

Merit aid floors are at 3.6/168. If you're at or above those numbers you should get money.
Nobody gets need aid till a couple months from now probably.

[onmytoes812]

well...no merit aid then. Where is that stat posted?

other options: Full tuition+ at Alabama, Paying ~$10/yr at UGA. And there's a decision on the way from Vanderbilt, which seems to be taking too long for even the USPS. But it's a tossup there on what they'll say to me.

I'm from Alabama. I'd like to do BigLaw, and I like the idea of opening up the Texas market (Dallas, Houston, etc). I don't necessarily WANT to be in Alabama at first, though I'm not totally opposed to ending up there eventually. Marginally interested in DC, definitely interested in SE cities like Nashville, Charlotte, & Atlanta. But if I might end up in ATL anyway, I'm not sure the prestige of a UT degree is worth the debt compared to the salary.

I was torn between UA & UGA, and this just seemed like the answer!

[japes]

It's not posted anywhere, finaid tells that to people but doesn't publish it. URMs seem to be an exception.

I know an Alabama alum who was in the top 30%ish of his class trying to get a job in Austin and he's having a lot of trouble doing it. Texas is at the very least less regional.

[keayts]

If you read PLS, make sure that grain of salt is enormous. Atticus has some good ideas, but he's too vitriolic and long-winded to be taken seriously.

TLS veterans generally recommend not prepping too much (if at all) for 1L courses. If you decide to do so, just try to get a broad overview of the core subjects. "Law 101" (Feinman) is a quick read that hits some highlights of each area -- should be cheap used.

End of the semester (mid- or late May) might be a good time to sniff around for deals on used E&Es and common supplements, but please don't try to learn from them until you start classes. Instead, enjoy the summer and read only enough to satisfy your curiosity.

I disagree about not prepping. Don't prepare by reading books on substantive law/rules of decision (e.g. what the prosecutor has to prove in Texas to convict a defendant of capital murder), since you don't know which of the 6 core courses you'll be taking in the fall, and you won't remember the rules you learned that summer for a course you'll take in the spring. But do read books on the legal reasoning process, since you'll be using the same method of reasoning in many different fields of substantive law. I'd also recommend taking a quick look at the first couple chapters of the E&E for torts, since doing so would provide you a sense of how to do make fact-based arguments, even if you don't end up taking torts during the fall. Don't stress out about remembering the rules for torts, but do see how the rules are applied to different fact-patterns, since much of what you do 1L year will be the same, applying rules to facts.

[keayts]

Thanks so much, Keayts! Your explanation and insights are really helpful. I will check the resources you recommended.
BTW, when do you know which section you are in (before or after orinentation)? I also saw people recommended these two books: Getting to Maybe, Introduction to the study and practice of law in a nutshell. How do you feel about those two? Thanks so much!

You find out what section you're in about 2 weeks before school starts, which is far too late for you to do exhaustive prepping for your fall courses in advance.

I didn't read Getting to Maybe, but I heard it was pretty good. I heard it concentrates on arguing in the alternative, which is a good skill to have when you're taking an exam, since spotting alternative arguments will yield more points.

I haven't heard anything about the other book.

[keayts]

It's not posted anywhere, finaid tells that to people but doesn't publish it. URMs seem to be an exception.

I know an Alabama alum who was in the top 30%ish of his class trying to get a job in Austin and he's having a lot of trouble doing it. Texas is at the very least less regional.

Getting into Austin is hard even if you're from UT, since so many people want to stay here, and the legal market is so small (especially if you're not an intellectual property lawyer). It's a lot easier to find jobs in Dallas and Houston.

[zengyy]

If you read PLS, make sure that grain of salt is enormous. Atticus has some good ideas, but he's too vitriolic and long-winded to be taken seriously.

TLS veterans generally recommend not prepping too much (if at all) for 1L courses. If you decide to do so, just try to get a broad overview of the core subjects. "Law 101" (Feinman) is a quick read that hits some highlights of each area -- should be cheap used.

End of the semester (mid- or late May) might be a good time to sniff around for deals on used E&Es and common supplements, but please don't try to learn from them until you start classes. Instead, enjoy the summer and read only enough to satisfy your curiosity.

I disagree about not prepping. Don't prepare by reading books on substantive law/rules of decision (e.g. what the prosecutor has to prove in Texas to convict a defendant of capital murder), since you don't know which of the 6 core courses you'll be taking in the fall, and you won't remember the rules you learned that summer for a course you'll take in the spring. But do read books on the legal reasoning process, since you'll be using the same method of reasoning in many different fields of substantive law. I'd also recommend taking a quick look at the first couple chapters of the E&E for torts, since doing so would provide you a sense of how to do make fact-based arguments, even if you don't end up taking torts during the fall. Don't stress out about remembering the rules for torts, but do see how the rules are applied to different fact-patterns, since much of what you do 1L year will be the same, applying rules to facts.

Thanks for your more detailed advice and answers to my questions in another post! Are there books on legal reasoning process you can recommend? Thanks a lot!

[keayts]

Thanks for your more detailed advice and answers to my questions in another post! Are there books on legal reasoning process you can recommend? Thanks a lot!

I recommend reading Planet Law School for a general overview of what you need to learn how to do. The book provides an example using the Mayflower (discovery of America) which I thought was a great illustration of what you will be called to do on a typical law school exam, and how that differs from, say, a biology exam. It also provides an overview of how to study.

The E&E guides for various subjects will teach you the "black-letter" law, as will any outlines you find in student organization outline banks. You will want to work through the E&Es to make sure you understand what the rules are and common situations in which they apply, and reinforce your understanding of the rules through studying old outlines.

LEEWS will teach you how to apply your understanding of the "black-letter" law on an exam, which may contain many different confusing facts which you'll have to sort through to identify their legal implications.

John Delaney's book "Learning Legal Reasoning" will teach you how to extract the "black-letter" law from cases and statutes. This is a skill you will need to learn to be a good lawyer. The law in most 1L subjects is relatively settled and clear, so this skill isn't that relevant to the core 6 subjects, but you will need to master this skill once you get into law which is a lot less established (such as patent law or securities regulation). You can get the book here: http://johndelaneypub.com/publications/ ... ning-book/

Delaney's book "How To Do Your Best On Law School Exams" also provides a good perspective on how to take law school exams, though it overlaps somewhat with LEEWS and some of the tips in Planet Law School. It's worth taking a look at, you can get it here: http://johndelaneypub.com/publications/ ... exam-book/

(Actually, if you want to buy either one of Delaney's books, let me know via personal message since I still have them from 1L year.)

From what I can tell, Getting to Maybe deals with addressing the "gray areas" in the "black-letter" law; that is, where the answer of whether a condition is met, or which law should apply, is not entirely clear. If this is the case, I recommend reading the book, since your legal analysis, and exam score, will be much improved if you can argue both sides of a contested issue, argue in the alternative, and argue against the applicability of a rule of decision (aka make a "policy argument"). Most professors will give you points if you raise relevant arguments for both sides of an issue, and being able to do these things increases the number of relevant arguments you can make.

These are all the useful resources I can think of right now. At the bare minimum, I recommend going through LEEWS and the first 1/3 of Planet Law School, since those two resources will give you ample food for thought.

[Leira7905]

Thanks for your more detailed advice and answers to my questions in another post! Are there books on legal reasoning process you can recommend? Thanks a lot!

I recommend reading Planet Law School for a general overview of what you need to learn how to do. The book provides an example using the Mayflower (discovery of America) which I thought was a great illustration of what you will be called to do on a typical law school exam, and how that differs from, say, a biology exam. It also provides an overview of how to study.

The E&E guides for various subjects will teach you the "black-letter" law, as will any outlines you find in student organization outline banks. You will want to work through the E&Es to make sure you understand what the rules are and common situations in which they apply, and reinforce your understanding of the rules through studying old outlines.

LEEWS will teach you how to apply your understanding of the "black-letter" law on an exam, which may contain many different confusing facts which you'll have to sort through to identify their legal implications.

John Delaney's book "Learning Legal Reasoning" will teach you how to extract the "black-letter" law from cases and statutes. This is a skill you will need to learn to be a good lawyer. The law in most 1L subjects is relatively settled and clear, so this skill isn't that relevant to the core 6 subjects, but you will need to master this skill once you get into law which is a lot less established (such as patent law or securities regulation). You can get the book here: http://johndelaneypub.com/publications/ ... ning-book/

Delaney's book "How To Do Your Best On Law School Exams" also provides a good perspective on how to take law school exams, though it overlaps somewhat with LEEWS and some of the tips in Planet Law School. It's worth taking a look at, you can get it here: http://johndelaneypub.com/publications/ ... exam-book/

(Actually, if you want to buy either one of Delaney's books, let me know via personal message since I still have them from 1L year.)

From what I can tell, Getting to Maybe deals with addressing the "gray areas" in the "black-letter" law; that is, where the answer of whether a condition is met, or which law should apply, is not entirely clear. If this is the case, I recommend reading the book, since your legal analysis, and exam score, will be much improved if you can argue both sides of a contested issue, argue in the alternative, and argue against the applicability of a rule of decision (aka make a "policy argument"). Most professors will give you points if you raise relevant arguments for both sides of an issue, and being able to do these things increases the number of relevant arguments you can make.

These are all the useful resources I can think of right now. At the bare minimum, I recommend going through LEEWS and the first 1/3 of Planet Law School, since those two resources will give you ample food for thought.

Thanks for the post. I've been searching old threads looking for prep advice for 0Ls. I have to admit, that now that my cycle is over and I've paid my seat deposit, I'm starting to freak out just a little. I made the mistake of taking a look at the exam bank through the UT law library website. Even with several years working in the law some of those exams seem pretty intimidating to say the least! (I actually think i gagged a little). Of course, I realize that looking at any exam before actually taking the course is going to make it seem harder than it is, but I wanted an idea of what to expect.

At first I wasn't planning on doing any substantial prep, though I did purchase GTM. Now I think I'll go ahead and make a point to setting aside some time this summer to do a little more reading, if for no other reason than to make me feel a little less freaked!

[BeachandRun23]

Thanks for the post. I've been searching old threads looking for prep advice for 0Ls. I have to admit, that now that my cycle is over and I've paid my seat deposit, I'm starting to freak out just a little. I made the mistake of taking a look at the exam bank through the UT law library website. Even with several years working in the law some of those exams seem pretty intimidating to say the least! (I actually think i gagged a little). Of course, I realize that looking at any exam before actually taking the course is going to make it seem harder than it is, but I wanted an idea of what to expect.

At first I wasn't planning on doing any substantial prep, though I did purchase GTM. Now I think I'll go ahead and make a point to setting aside some time this summer to do a little more reading, if for no other reason than to make me feel a little less freaked!

I've done the same thing you have. But of course looking at exams now is going to freak you out. You spend 3-4 months in class rigurouly studying cases and analyzing and breaking them down. How will you know the material without ever stepping foot in law school? We're all in this together, and hvaing worked in law, im sure you will atleast have a better feel for terminology/the legal process as a whole. I really wouldnt stress prepping for stuff now. You dont even know what your prof will focus on.

[keayts]

I've done the same thing you have. But of course looking at exams now is going to freak you out. You spend 3-4 months in class rigurouly studying cases and analyzing and breaking them down. How will you know the material without ever stepping foot in law school? We're all in this together, and hvaing worked in law, im sure you will atleast have a better feel for terminology/the legal process as a whole. I really wouldnt stress prepping for stuff now. You dont even know what your prof will focus on.

I agree with you in that you shouldn't focus on learning the rules now; learning how the rule against perpetuities works isn't going to be of much help if you take property in the spring, or if your property professor doesn't teach the rule against perpetuities. You have plenty of time to learn what the rules are. But reading a few supplements on exam taking and the legal reasoning process will help you develop skills which are applicable across all fields, and so you really don't run into the risk that you'll forget what you know or what you know will be inapplicable. And besides, once the school year starts, you probably won't have time to read and think about Planet Law School or LEEWS; you'll be busy learning the rules for the substantive areas of law you'll be studying. That's why I think taking a bit of time now to read these things is a good idea; you'll have plenty of time to digest what you're reading and figure out how to apply the skills you develop.

[BeachandRun23]

I've done the same thing you have. But of course looking at exams now is going to freak you out. You spend 3-4 months in class rigurouly studying cases and analyzing and breaking them down. How will you know the material without ever stepping foot in law school? We're all in this together, and hvaing worked in law, im sure you will atleast have a better feel for terminology/the legal process as a whole. I really wouldnt stress prepping for stuff now. You dont even know what your prof will focus on.

I agree with you in that you shouldn't focus on learning the rules now; learning how the rule against perpetuities works isn't going to be of much help if you take property in the spring, or if your property professor doesn't teach the rule against perpetuities. You have plenty of time to learn what the rules are. But reading a few supplements on exam taking and the legal reasoning process will help you develop skills which are applicable across all fields, and so you really don't run into the risk that you'll forget what you know or what you know will be inapplicable. And besides, once the school year starts, you probably won't have time to read and think about Planet Law School or LEEWS; you'll be busy learning the rules for the substantive areas of law you'll be studying. That's why I think taking a bit of time now to read these things is a good idea; you'll have plenty of time to digest what you're reading and figure out how to apply the skills you develop.

Thanks for the tips. I have read most of getting to maybe before and I might re-read some. I guess the moral of the story is that different things work for different folks. I have already taken some undergrad law classes so I understand the basic synopsis of what a law class may be like. For me, prepping will only cause anxiety and anxiety will only ruin my grades. Reading a book like planet law school is only going to drive me crazy. The author hits on hidden agendas, and profs that hide the ball...etc etc. Its just not for me. Ill take law school as it comes. Im not going to sit here worrying , driving myself crazy, trying to learn different torts during the summer. I plan to study hard in law school, but I also plan to still remain sane. We will see.

Im very happy UT only has 4 classes though. Some schools have 5, including a graded legal writing.

[Leira7905]

Thanks for the tips. I have read most of getting to maybe before and I might re-read some. I guess the moral of the story is that different things work for different folks. I have already taken some undergrad law classes so I understand the basic synopsis of what a law class may be like. For me, prepping will only cause anxiety and anxiety will only ruin my grades. Reading a book like planet law school is only going to drive me crazy. The author hits on hidden agendas, and profs that hide the ball...etc etc. Its just not for me. Ill take law school as it comes. Im not going to sit here worrying , driving myself crazy, trying to learn different torts during the summer. I plan to study hard in law school, but I also plan to still remain sane. We will see.

Im very happy UT only has 4 classes though. Some schools have 5, including a graded legal writing.

I wasn't aware it was only 4 classes... I kept thinking it was five. Four sounds better.

I don't plan to overdoing the prep or trying to learn any substantive law. However, in situations where I feel anxiety, sometimes doing something that will give me some sense of control over the situation, helps me feel calmer. (Yeah, I'm a control freak).

[onmytoes812]

Does Texas typically focus on training legal scholars and future professors, or does it train people to practice law (as in firm work)?

[philosoraptor]

Does Texas typically focus on training legal scholars and future professors, or does it train people to practice law (as in firm work)?

Usually scholars and professors come from Yale or Harvard. It's possible from other places, but don't count on it. Our classes do, however, tend to be theory-heavy, and there are tons of opportunities for legal scholarship. We have some serious heavy hitters on the faculty who can help you out if that's your thing.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Does Texas typically focus on training legal scholars and future professors, or does it train people to practice law (as in firm work)?

You decide for yourself, based on what classes you take 2L and 3L year. Most all high ranked schools emphasize theory in first year courses, but you can do what you want after that. UT has a lot of clinicals to take, internship opportunities during the semester, and has plenty of former practioners as teachers in various classes.

[Shem]

You're from Philly? Me too!

@ Rory - very nice - are you definite for UT?

[Rory1987]

You're from Philly? Me too!

@ Rory - very nice - are you definite for UT?

I sent you a PM

[onmytoes812]

Does Texas typically focus on training legal scholars and future professors, or does it train people to practice law (as in firm work)?

You decide for yourself, based on what classes you take 2L and 3L year. Most all high ranked schools emphasize theory in first year courses, but you can do what you want after that. UT has a lot of clinicals to take, internship opportunities during the semester, and has plenty of former practioners as teachers in various classes.

Thanks! It seems like a school where a lot of people aim NLJ250, which is what I want...just didn't know if we had a Southwestern Yale on our hands that sends everyone into academia.

Another question, which may have been covered earlier, but what are job prospects REALLY like right now? Have you heard about the middle-of-the class opportunities (hey, 90% won't be Top 10%). Are firms coming from outside of Texas, and if so, from where?