WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[LET'S GET IT]

LETS, thanks for the cogent analysis. JCougs is definitely off the reservation. Probably a bit darker than the median outcome but still not a great poster boy for Washu.

But to your point, if people around median find some type of work and STL doesn't dip that far into the class. Where are these people going? Back to their hometowns? I like the 10% or so that go to NY but if that's mostly people going back home that's discouraging.

I'm not trying to knock wustl individually. I know things can be tough no matter what school.

I think most end up going home, or somewhere else they have ties. And STL "biglaw" doesn't dip to median, but plenty of smaller firms here do. They just aren't going to pay six figures or anything close to it.

And Scotty is right, the NY 10% is almost exclusively biglaw. I would bet that most of them aren't going home.

[sublime]

..

[hoos89]

LETS, thanks for the cogent analysis. JCougs is definitely off the reservation. Probably a bit darker than the median outcome but still not a great poster boy for Washu.

But to your point, if people around median find some type of work and STL doesn't dip that far into the class. Where are these people going? Back to their hometowns? I like the 10% or so that go to NY but if that's mostly people going back home that's discouraging.

I'm not trying to knock wustl individually. I know things can be tough no matter what school.

First: no offense to LETS but he's a 1L. Take his unabashed optimism with a grain of salt. I have plenty of friends (3Ls) who still haven't found anything, and graduation is in a month. Do not just dismiss JCougs as being totally off the reservation and accept a contrary opinion just because it is more rosy and therefore easier to swallow. Should you expect to turn out like JCougs if you're median? Perhaps not, but it's also not impossible (or even all that improbable). You also shouldn't assume that you will even be as high as median. And remember: only about half of WUSTL students have jobs at graduation.

STL dips plenty far into the class for the right person, but if you're just some random bro from Chicago or one of the coasts, or just generally not from/connected to St. Louis, it will not dip very far at all for you. Some people below median end up getting smallish firm gigs in STL, and some people above median don't get anything. I'm really not sure where everyone ends up, and I can tell you that a decent chunk of NY placement is for big law. Regardless though, you shouldn't come here expecting that (or a similar) outcome.

(Some people at median DO get STL biglaw by the way. But if this is a realistic possibility for you, you probably already know).

[Mozart Lacrimosa]

LETS, thanks for the cogent analysis. JCougs is definitely off the reservation. Probably a bit darker than the median outcome but still not a great poster boy for Washu.

But to your point, if people around median find some type of work and STL doesn't dip that far into the class. Where are these people going? Back to their hometowns? I like the 10% or so that go to NY but if that's mostly people going back home that's discouraging.

I'm not trying to knock wustl individually. I know things can be tough no matter what school.

The 10% going to NY is almost exclusively made up of people working in biglaw fwiw.[/quote

That's a bit encouraging at least.

[LET'S GET IT]

Just for the record I never said anything about having a job by graduation. For anyone that misses the biglaw boat, I would expect to graduate jobless, and be looking after the bar. I don't think I was unabashedly optimistic.

[Birdnals]

FWIW, everybody I know who was top 3rd and above and really went HAM for NY firms got a job at a Vault 100 firm in the city. They seem to dip a little lower in our classes than most cities.

It's also hard for us 3L's to even tell you about job prospects because our anecdotal experiences don't really help. For example, I'm pretty sure all my close 3L friends have jobs, but it's not like people who don't have jobs are broadcasting that fact. It's also hard to know who is self selecting things like public service work, or who is doing it because they struck out of firm jobs.

[Mozart Lacrimosa]

Got it. I don't mean to dismiss the JCoug possibility. I get that his is not an uncommon outcome. But that is not absolutely helpful and a large degree of uncertainty remains here at the starting line. When you say plenty of people don't have anything yet, are we talking double digits within your friend group?

Big scholarship is nice, but from everything I've read it still feels like I'm about to play russian roulette with the next couple years of my life. No debt and no six figure job is still not a great outcome. And hearing people like Jcougs have it way worse is terrifying.

LETS, thanks for the cogent analysis. JCougs is definitely off the reservation. Probably a bit darker than the median outcome but still not a great poster boy for Washu.

But to your point, if people around median find some type of work and STL doesn't dip that far into the class. Where are these people going? Back to their hometowns? I like the 10% or so that go to NY but if that's mostly people going back home that's discouraging.

I'm not trying to knock wustl individually. I know things can be tough no matter what school.

First: no offense to LETS but he's a 1L. Take his unabashed optimism with a grain of salt. I have plenty of friends (3Ls) who still haven't found anything, and graduation is in a month. Do not just dismiss JCougs as being totally off the reservation and accept a contrary opinion just because it is more rosy and therefore easier to swallow. Should you expect to turn out like JCougs if you're median? Perhaps not, but it's also not impossible (or even all that improbable). You also shouldn't assume that you will even be as high as median. And remember: only about half of WUSTL students have jobs at graduation.

STL dips plenty far into the class for the right person, but if you're just some random bro from Chicago or one of the coasts, or just generally not from/connected to St. Louis, it will not dip very far at all for you. Some people below median end up getting smallish firm gigs in STL, and some people above median don't get anything. I'm really not sure where everyone ends up, and I can tell you that a decent chunk of NY placement is for big law. Regardless though, you shouldn't come here expecting that (or a similar) outcome.

(Some people at median DO get STL biglaw by the way. But if this is a realistic possibility for you, you probably already know).

[chuckbass]

FWIW, everybody I know who was top 3rd and above and really went HAM for NY firms got a job at a Vault 100 firm in the city. They seem to dip a little lower in our classes than most cities.

It's also hard for us 3L's to even tell you about job prospects because our anecdotal experiences don't really help. For example, I'm pretty sure all my close 3L friends have jobs, but it's not like people who don't have jobs are broadcasting that fact. It's also hard to know who is self selecting things like public service work, or who is doing it because they struck out of firm jobs.

Re bolded: is there more to going HAM beyond massmailing?

[Birdnals]

Doing the New York OCI seemed to be a huge part of it. Also more than just mass-mailing means reaching out to NY alumni, making trips to alumni happy hours in New York, scheduling initial interviews in the city during breaks, doing the semester in NYC, etc. The people I know who were NYC or bust and focused a ton of their efforts there seemed to do OK.

[hoos89]

FWIW, everybody I know who was top 3rd and above and really went HAM for NY firms got a job at a Vault 100 firm in the city. They seem to dip a little lower in our classes than most cities.

It's also hard for us 3L's to even tell you about job prospects because our anecdotal experiences don't really help. For example, I'm pretty sure all my close 3L friends have jobs, but it's not like people who don't have jobs are broadcasting that fact. It's also hard to know who is self selecting things like public service work, or who is doing it because they struck out of firm jobs.

I know multiple people top 1/3 or better who struck out in NYC (and some who struck out altogether). Maybe they didn't really go HAM, I dunno, but from what I've gathered, most people below about top 20% had a tough time even getting interviews in NYC. My knowledge of NYC recruiting (at least back in 2013) was that NYC was more grade selective and would not dip as far as other cities. Maybe that has changed in the past couple years, though. I'm also kind of surprised you don't have any close friends without a job.

[Mozart Lacrimosa]

Doing the New York OCI seemed to be a huge part of it. Also more than just mass-mailing means reaching out to NY alumni, making trips to alumni happy hours in New York, scheduling initial interviews in the city during breaks, doing the semester in NYC, etc. The people I know who were NYC or bust and focused a ton of their efforts there seemed to do OK.

If the semester in NYC is 2nd semester 2L can that really help for post grad work? I thought 2L SA pretty much locked up the 1st year associate pipeline

[hoos89]

Doing the New York OCI seemed to be a huge part of it. Also more than just mass-mailing means reaching out to NY alumni, making trips to alumni happy hours in New York, scheduling initial interviews in the city during breaks, doing the semester in NYC, etc. The people I know who were NYC or bust and focused a ton of their efforts there seemed to do OK.

How many people do you honestly know who did all of those things, though?

[Birdnals]

I know multiple people top 1/3 or better who struck out in NYC (and some who struck out altogether). Maybe they didn't really go HAM, I dunno, but from what I've gathered, most people below about top 20% had a tough time even getting interviews in NYC. My knowledge of NYC recruiting (at least back in 2013) was that NYC was more grade selective and would not dip as far as other cities. Maybe that has changed in the past couple years, though. I'm also kind of surprised you don't have any close friends without a job.

I'm sure I do. They just don't talk about it and I'm not asking. It's also hard to know the ones who are interviewing still because they just don't like the job they have lined up from the ones who don't have an job.

This year especially, I know multiple people who are working at really good new york firms who were not in the top 25%. But again, this is anecdotal and pretty much useless.

[hoos89]

I know multiple people top 1/3 or better who struck out in NYC (and some who struck out altogether). Maybe they didn't really go HAM, I dunno, but from what I've gathered, most people below about top 20% had a tough time even getting interviews in NYC. My knowledge of NYC recruiting (at least back in 2013) was that NYC was more grade selective and would not dip as far as other cities. Maybe that has changed in the past couple years, though. I'm also kind of surprised you don't have any close friends without a job.

I'm sure I do. They just don't talk about it and I'm not asking. It's also hard to know the ones who are interviewing still because they just don't like the job they have lined up from the ones who don't have an job.

This year especially, I know multiple people who are working at really good new york firms who were not in the top 25%. But again, this is anecdotal and pretty much useless.

I have a tendency to assume that someone who got an NYC firm job outside top 1/4 has something else going for them besides grades and general interviewing aptitude. Maybe I'm wrong there, but of the two people I can think of off the top of my head that got NYC big law outside top 1/4, one is super connected, and the other is IP (and also maybe kind of connected).

[Mozart Lacrimosa]

So it seems like top 20% is the critical point for NYC [and Chi?] and below that is idiosyncratic.. diverse, clinton-esque charisma, daddy's partner.

I spoke with Mary Perry about clerkships and she made it seem like faculty is hooked up. What do you guys think? I'm comparing this to ND where there seems to be a small army of former Scalia clerks however.

[TatteredDignity]

I spoke with Mary Perry about clerkships and she made it seem like faculty is hooked up. What do you guys think? I'm comparing this to ND where there seems to be a small army of former Scalia clerks however.

There might be a handful of professors who can go to bat for you and get you a clerkship. For this to matter, though, you would still have to (1) know who they are in advance so you can make connections/take classes with them, and (2) be at least top 10%. Realistically more like top 5%.

[Mozart Lacrimosa]

Very helpful. I'd love to hear some success stories from WUSTL alum. JCougar has given me traumatic stress syndrome.

[chuckbass]

Very helpful. I'd love to hear some success stories from WUSTL alum. JCougar has given me traumatic stress syndrome.

I mean there are a lot of successful WUSTL grads, and a lot of unsuccessful ones. Same for ND, and most schools. As an 0L you have zero clue how good you are at law school exams, so you should go to a school where you're happy with the outcomes of the average student.

[hoos89]

So it seems like top 20% is the critical point for NYC [and Chi?] and below that is idiosyncratic.. diverse, clinton-esque charisma, daddy's partner.

I spoke with Mary Perry about clerkships and she made it seem like faculty is hooked up. What do you guys think? I'm comparing this to ND where there seems to be a small army of former Scalia clerks however.

Top 20% (with no other remarkable characteristics) got you some screeners at the NYC off-campus program in Fall 2013. It didn't make you safe by any means, but you had a decent chance to make it happen. So much of recruiting is just random: lots of people get exactly one offer so the line between success and strikeout is not as big as you might think. The better your grades, the bigger your margin for error.

Also, Chicago is if anything more grade selective than NYC. One of the more difficult markets to crack.

Obviously I only have anecdotes from my own experiences and those of my friends who have chosen to share, as well as some stuff I've pieced together from the OCI threads, plus the market is probably not going to be the same in 2016 as it was in 2013 so YMMV.

[PeanutsNJam]

Pretty sure you can avoid the jcougar nightmare if you graduate debt free (or close to it), most of his gripe is with the debt.

[JCougar]

I'm not upset with WUSTL in particular--in fact, I go out of my way not to mention exactly what school I'm from. The thing is, this can happen at any school--but it also happens more than people think. But one poster on that thread has a personal issue with me, so he keeps repeating my school and graduation year as if he wants to out me or something--it's kind of weird. Anyway, things get dicey even at Georgetown at median. And I (stupidly) spent a lot of time focusing on the Chicago market where I thought I had the best ties. But the condition of the Chicago market is terrible (along with most of the Midwest). Even U Chicago students that don't have ties to Chicago have struck out by focusing only on Chicago and not NYC.

My point is that the legal education-industrial complex is broken from top to bottom--it's a systemic program that can't be fixed by one school acting alone. It has to be fixed either by the ABA or the Federal Government--and each institution has really only made some surface-level changes that will not solve the problem long-term.

With that said, there's 4 other WUSTL grads on my doc review project--3 of which are from my graduating class. All but one of us were around median or above. I also know a handful of people that were cum laude but fell short of top 20% that are cobbling together 2-3 part time jobs, working terrible hours in insurance defense/personal injury for almost no pay, living with their parents, or pursuing other non-law options (out of necessity, not choice). With government budgets cinched, there's really no plan for anyone at any school that strikes out at OCI--which, at schools in WUSTL's range, is about 75-80% of the class. If you strike out at OCI, you should really just cut your losses and drop out. Either that, or prepare yourself for a 1-3 year grind living off Medicaid, food stamps, or whatever other income you can scrounge up to pay the rent--all while interest on your loan debt spirals out of control. I can tell that a lot of people at WUSTL's CSO want to help, but there's literally nothing they can do because there's simply so little jobs at all, and way to many law grads. You could completely cancel the next three graduating classes, and there would be enough un(der)employed grads from the last 5 years out there to fill every open spot that pops up until 2019.

And yet the ABA continues to accredit more schools, which are now admitting people who almost certainly will not pass the bar--just to prop up the pyramid scheme for 3-4 more years. The legal education-industrial complex makes Wall Street circa 2008 look honest and responsibly-managed. Just be warned that caveat emptor and all that, and that there's really no one out there tending the light at the end of the tunnel.

[eriedoctrine]

I know people from WUSTL and BU that were bottom 25%, and got biglaw (IP Prosecution) in Boston. /IPsecure

[theycallmefoes]

does anyone who had lapierre have words of wisdom for his exam? i'm preparing form paragraphs and am overwhelmed and structurally confused by the sheer amount of cases he continuously alludes to

I'd also really appreciate advice for LaPierre's Con Law exam. I thought I had a pretty good handle on the material, but his PT gives me anxiety attacks.

Also, if anyone who did well in LaPierre's class has an outline they'd be willing to share, I will give you my first-born be eternally grateful. PAD doesn't have any outlines for LaPierre, and not having a solid outline to compare mine against is stressing me out.

Bump. Literally on the verge of a nervous breakdown. HELP.

[Unagi]

does anyone who had lapierre have words of wisdom for his exam? i'm preparing form paragraphs and am overwhelmed and structurally confused by the sheer amount of cases he continuously alludes to

I'd also really appreciate advice for LaPierre's Con Law exam. I thought I had a pretty good handle on the material, but his PT gives me anxiety attacks.

Also, if anyone who did well in LaPierre's class has an outline they'd be willing to share, I will give you my first-born be eternally grateful. PAD doesn't have any outlines for LaPierre, and not having a solid outline to compare mine against is stressing me out.

Bump. Literally on the verge of a nervous breakdown. HELP.

I don't have one, but there are some listed on outlinedepot.com

[Ref]

New employment info is up: https://law.wustl.edu/career_services/p ... px?id=9620

ETA: Highlights - only 1 unemployed-seeking; 16 university funded jobs (all full-time, long-term); 11 federal clerkships; 5 public interest; no solos; and 22 to DC

All out of 258 grads.