Cornell 1L taking questions Forum

[toothbrush]

Hi, can anyone here tell about career prospect of the dual jD/mastrîse en droit or jd/llm in int'l law? Does it provide the same opportunities as the traditional JD to get SA offer for 2nd year summer in the States?

What do you want to do with it? It provides the same 'opportunities' but may be hard to explain getting that degree as opposed to a traditional JD and get a 1L summer internship. However, people who get jd/mba do well at AJF getting a 2L SA so it's not like getting a secondary degree is bad, you just need to be able to explain why.

[parisian]

Hi, can anyone here tell about career prospect of the dual jD/mastrîse en droit or jd/llm in int'l law? Does it provide the same opportunities as the traditional JD to get SA offer for 2nd year summer in the States?

What do you want to do with it? It provides the same 'opportunities' but may be hard to explain getting that degree as opposed to a traditional JD and get a 1L summer internship. However, people who get jd/mba do well at AJF getting a 2L SA so it's not like getting a secondary degree is bad, you just need to be able to explain why.

I want to end up working in Europe; getting a FT offer from a US firm in Paris or Brussels so to say. Do you know about graduate destinations of these double degree students in the past?

[toothbrush]

Hi, can anyone here tell about career prospect of the dual jD/mastrîse en droit or jd/llm in int'l law? Does it provide the same opportunities as the traditional JD to get SA offer for 2nd year summer in the States?

What do you want to do with it? It provides the same 'opportunities' but may be hard to explain getting that degree as opposed to a traditional JD and get a 1L summer internship. However, people who get jd/mba do well at AJF getting a 2L SA so it's not like getting a secondary degree is bad, you just need to be able to explain why.

I want to end up working in Europe; getting a FT offer from a US firm in Paris or Brussels so to say. Do you know about graduate destinations of these double degree students in the past?

if that's what you want, you don't need to spend the money on the second llm degree. if you are here studying for your JD, just try to do well and apply for those sorts of firms... seek out people who work there from cornell, also.

i doubt getting thsoe degrees help. especially bc the law practiced there is likely securities which has nothing to do with int'l law and it could even work against you getting a degree in int'l law and applying to be a US securities lawyer

edit: based on your other post, looks like you are still studying for the lsat? not sure what's going on here, just try your best with the lsat to get into a top law school with international ties/presence (hint: not necessarily cornell) and then follow other advice above

[guinness1547]

Whitehead or Hockett for biz orgs?

[odela]

NU student here, I have FRAKES for Torts. I believe its his first year at NU. Any outlines for his class would be much appreciated!

[daisy8080]

Hi,

1) Can any accepted law school students talk about what sorts of extracurriculars they did in college?

2) Opinions on joining a pre-law fraternity for internship/networking connections? (My current mode of thinking: pre-law frat connections --> prestigious internships --> tie breaker for law school admissions between someone else w/ same LSAT/GPA as me)

Thanks in advance!

[Lincoln]

Hi,

1) Can any accepted law school students talk about what sorts of extracurriculars they did in college?

2) Opinions on joining a pre-law fraternity for internship/networking connections? (My current mode of thinking: pre-law frat connections --> prestigious internships --> tie breaker for law school admissions between someone else w/ same LSAT/GPA as me)

Thanks in advance!

1) I was varsity in drinking.

2) No one cares.

[Arbiter213]

Hi,

1) Can any accepted law school students talk about what sorts of extracurriculars they did in college?

2) Opinions on joining a pre-law fraternity for internship/networking connections? (My current mode of thinking: pre-law frat connections --> prestigious internships --> tie breaker for law school admissions between someone else w/ same LSAT/GPA as me)

Thanks in advance!

1) I was varsity in drinking.

2) No one cares.

This is why you are a top tier poster.

[redsoxfan1989]

Any recommend supps for crim and property?

[Lavitz]

Any recommend supps for crim and property?

Crim: Understanding Criminal Law by Dressler; Model Problems and Outstanding Answers by Christopher & Christopher

Property: Understanding Property by Sprankling

[redsoxfan1989]

Any recommend supps for crim and property?

Crim: Understanding Criminal Law by Dressler; Model Problems and Outstanding Answers by Christopher & Christopher

Property: Understanding Property by Sprankling

You're a hero Lavitz

[runthetrap1990]

Any recommend supps for crim and property?

Crim: Understanding Criminal Law by Dressler; Model Problems and Outstanding Answers by Christopher & Christopher

Property: Understanding Property by Sprankling

welp, looks like I got my christmas shopping list down.

[toothbrush]

Use Dressler's Understanding Crim exclusively + outline it (or just use the lexis outline on their site and modify it as you go - that's what I did)

For property I think a good pre-made outline + Crunchtime is sufficient (Underkuffler). I would also recommend the barbri lectures for property as a starting point to understanding property. You can use them to supplement (or substitute..) reading for class. The lecturer happens to write the Crunchtime so there is a nice overlap there, if you can handle her humor (you'll see).

I did well in both classes this way and would not have done anything different - but as always, ymmv and you should trust yourself.

But really, don't worry too much about this stuff yet!

edit: I didn't use or ever look at the Understanding Property by Sprankling, but if it's anything like Dressler I would NOT recommend it for property. Property has very few topics that you go into for depth/theory/understanding. You really cover a ton of law but not much in depth. The "Understanding" series goes into a lot of theory and depth that I don't think is necessary for doing well in property, aside from 1-2 topics (land-use controls most notably) that will be the inevitable essay for this class.

[Lavitz]

edit: I didn't use or ever look at the Understanding Property by Sprankling, but if it's anything like Dressler I would NOT recommend it for property. Property has very few topics that you go into for depth/theory/understanding. You really cover a ton of law but not much in depth. The "Understanding" series goes into a lot of theory and depth that I don't think is necessary for doing well in property, aside from 1-2 topics (land-use controls most notably) that will be the inevitable essay for this class.

It's what Alexander recommended, but then again, he's gone. idk how Underkuffler or Sherwin is different.

[toothbrush]

edit: I didn't use or ever look at the Understanding Property by Sprankling, but if it's anything like Dressler I would NOT recommend it for property. Property has very few topics that you go into for depth/theory/understanding. You really cover a ton of law but not much in depth. The "Understanding" series goes into a lot of theory and depth that I don't think is necessary for doing well in property, aside from 1-2 topics (land-use controls most notably) that will be the inevitable essay for this class.

It's what Alexander recommended, but then again, he's gone. idk how Underkuffler or Sherwin is different.

Yeah, that's fair. Should have put again that my advice is for UK - not entirely sure how Alexander operates or how Sherwin will.

[bobbybird]

Hi guys!

I scoured the past few pages but didn't find anything related to what I was looking for, so I'm asking here. If it's been asked and answered before, sorry.

So Cornell's employment information (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cornell/) says it put 57.5% of its 2013 grads in large firms and 10.9% of them in federal clerkships, blowing all of its peer schools out of the water and on its face it seems to have high value for its ranking. However, I wanted to ask you guys how you felt anecdotally about these numbers, how you think Cornell compares to peer schools, and if there is anything misleading about these numbers? I ask because despite these numbers, Cornell refuses to publish its NALP report, which is a cause for concern about whether there's more to these numbers than meets the eye. Specific questions:

1) LST defines its "large firm score" as grads who went to firms of 100+ in size. Do you guys think that Cornell's 57.5% number had a high number of grads go to 100+ member firms that aren't as 'prestigious' or well-known?

2) Do you guys think these numbers were bloated because of Cornell's small class size? Meaning they were high simply due to volatility and chance. (For example, one more federal clerkship for Cornell sends its % up ~.5%, whereas at Michigan one more federal clerkship would send it up about ~.25%)

Look, I already understand that this post will likely be mocked. I know I'm asking some pretty poindexter-y questions but I feel like they are worthwhile to ask. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this.

[Lincoln]

2013 grad here.

1) LST defines its "large firm score" as grads who went to firms of 100+ in size. Do you guys think that Cornell's 57.5% number had a high number of grads go to 100+ member firms that aren't as 'prestigious' or well-known?

No. Most people I know of went to big firms with 500+ lawyers (or smaller shops that are equally selective). If anything, I'm surprised that the number isn't higher. I heard that close to 80% of participants in AJF got jobs through it. Assuming that includes every law clerk (which isn't the case), that brings you to 68.4%, i.e. about 10 percentage points lower than I'd expect.

2) Do you guys think these numbers were bloated because of Cornell's small class size? Meaning they were high simply due to volatility and chance. (For example, one more federal clerkship for Cornell sends its % up ~.5%, whereas at Michigan one more federal clerkship would send it up about ~.25%)

I think this has a marginal impact. It's generally easier to place one person than 10, but large classes also mean more alumni.

[bobbybird]

2013 grad here.

1) LST defines its "large firm score" as grads who went to firms of 100+ in size. Do you guys think that Cornell's 57.5% number had a high number of grads go to 100+ member firms that aren't as 'prestigious' or well-known?

No. Most people I know of went to big firms with 500+ lawyers (or smaller shops that are equally selective). If anything, I'm surprised that the number isn't higher. I heard that close to 80% of participants in AJF got jobs through it. Assuming that includes every law clerk (which isn't the case), that brings you to 68.4%, i.e. about 10 percentage points lower than I'd expect.

2) Do you guys think these numbers were bloated because of Cornell's small class size? Meaning they were high simply due to volatility and chance. (For example, one more federal clerkship for Cornell sends its % up ~.5%, whereas at Michigan one more federal clerkship would send it up about ~.25%)

I think this has a marginal impact. It's generally easier to place one person than 10, but large classes also mean more alumni.

Thanks a ton for your response! It's great to hear from an actual 2013 grad. I'm glad to hear more positivity about Cornell because so far on my list of acceptances, that's looking like #1.

[Lacepiece23]

2013 grad here.

1) LST defines its "large firm score" as grads who went to firms of 100+ in size. Do you guys think that Cornell's 57.5% number had a high number of grads go to 100+ member firms that aren't as 'prestigious' or well-known?

No. Most people I know of went to big firms with 500+ lawyers (or smaller shops that are equally selective). If anything, I'm surprised that the number isn't higher. I heard that close to 80% of participants in AJF got jobs through it. Assuming that includes every law clerk (which isn't the case), that brings you to 68.4%, i.e. about 10 percentage points lower than I'd expect.

2) Do you guys think these numbers were bloated because of Cornell's small class size? Meaning they were high simply due to volatility and chance. (For example, one more federal clerkship for Cornell sends its % up ~.5%, whereas at Michigan one more federal clerkship would send it up about ~.25%)

I think this has a marginal impact. It's generally easier to place one person than 10, but large classes also mean more alumni.

Thanks a ton for your response! It's great to hear from an actual 2013 grad. I'm glad to hear more positivity about Cornell because so far on my list of acceptances, that's looking like #1.

I'm graduating this year from Cornell. Really enjoyed my time here. TBH I don't know why anyone would pick a higher ranked school with less money unless its HYS. From my experience with hiring and lay prestige most lawyers who practice think that we are in the same band as CCN anyway because we are an Ivy. Thus, the minimal biglaw boost you would get by attending another school would not be worth the scholarship money one would likely get with above median numbers for Cornell. Just my biased 2 cents.

Ithaca is cold, but a good jacket only costs $200. I probably saved 30k by taking my Cornell acceptance withe $ and running.

[bobbybird]

2013 grad here.

1) LST defines its "large firm score" as grads who went to firms of 100+ in size. Do you guys think that Cornell's 57.5% number had a high number of grads go to 100+ member firms that aren't as 'prestigious' or well-known?

No. Most people I know of went to big firms with 500+ lawyers (or smaller shops that are equally selective). If anything, I'm surprised that the number isn't higher. I heard that close to 80% of participants in AJF got jobs through it. Assuming that includes every law clerk (which isn't the case), that brings you to 68.4%, i.e. about 10 percentage points lower than I'd expect.

2) Do you guys think these numbers were bloated because of Cornell's small class size? Meaning they were high simply due to volatility and chance. (For example, one more federal clerkship for Cornell sends its % up ~.5%, whereas at Michigan one more federal clerkship would send it up about ~.25%)

I think this has a marginal impact. It's generally easier to place one person than 10, but large classes also mean more alumni.

Thanks a ton for your response! It's great to hear from an actual 2013 grad. I'm glad to hear more positivity about Cornell because so far on my list of acceptances, that's looking like #1.

I'm graduating this year from Cornell. Really enjoyed my time here. TBH I don't know why anyone would pick a higher ranked school with less money unless its HYS. From my experience with hiring and lay prestige most lawyers who practice think that we are in the same band as CCN anyway because we are an Ivy. Thus, the minimal biglaw boost you would get by attending another school would not be worth the scholarship money one would likely get with above median numbers for Cornell. Just my biased 2 cents.

Ithaca is cold, but a good jacket only costs $200. I probably saved 30k by taking my Cornell acceptance withe $ and running.

Thank you for your response. This, honestly, was my feeling from what I've read thus far about Cornell. It seems like such an undervalued school for it's employment data, so now that I'm in with the potential to get very good scholarship money, it's really high on my list. However, I keep doubting myself, thinking maybe I'm missing something critical.

[toothbrush]

Thank you for your response. This, honestly, was my feeling from what I've read thus far about Cornell. It seems like such an undervalued school for it's employment data, so now that I'm in with the potential to get very good scholarship money, it's really high on my list. However, I keep doubting myself, thinking maybe I'm missing something critical.

To give you some food for thought - 8 people last year from the 1L class chose to pay more money to go to an objectively worse (using the data points you chose) [[EDIT - decided to fact check. NYU does have a better big firm score by .8%. However, NYU's clerkship placement is -2.1% comparatively, making it a loss of -1.3 for the two data points. I could edit this post for a better example, but I think most of what I say is still ok., just covering myself w/ this edit]] school and pay more money for it. I am speaking of those who transferred to NYU. I guess you can wonder why so many people did that (mind you, 17 transferred out of Cornell, only two of which went to HYS).

Without this being too cryptic, consider (1) Cornell's location. There are varying opinions on Ithaca and whether it's a good place to study or not. I fall in the camp that Ithaca was pretty awesome and is an excellent place to study. (2) Cornell's student body. The group tends to be a bit younger compared to some other t14. This, anecedotally, helps shape the atmosphere of the 1L class. In addition, there is indeed an isolating factor about Ithaca (compared to, say, NYC) whereby the attributes of the class are amplified. I'm not just talking out of my ass but a few current 1Ls have PM'd me saying the same thing. (3) Your career goals. Cornell is a NYC big law feeder. It is comparatively difficult to get many resources from the school or find like-minded individuals who don't want NYC big law. If you're in this camp who wants NYC big law, then great. If not, maybe you'd do better at somewhere like NYU that tends to have a broader class in terms of employment interests. That is not to say that PILU or CALSA or whatever don't do a good job in bringing like-minded individuals together - but they can't be as good as NYU for PI or places like Berk or Stanford for CA west coast.

Those are just some thoughts. Congrats on your acceptance and future money, though! Cornell is an excellent school and a great place to study - just maybe not for everyone. Using big firm % and clerkship % should not be the only consideration in choosing to spend three years somewhere, really.

[Lincoln]

Thank you for your response. This, honestly, was my feeling from what I've read thus far about Cornell. It seems like such an undervalued school for it's employment data, so now that I'm in with the potential to get very good scholarship money, it's really high on my list. However, I keep doubting myself, thinking maybe I'm missing something critical.

To give you some food for thought - 8 people last year from the 1L class chose to pay more money to go to an objectively worse (using the data points you chose) school and pay more money for it. I am speaking of those who transferred to NYU. I guess you can wonder why so many people did that (mind you, 17 transferred out of Cornell, only two of which went to HYS).

Without this being too cryptic, consider (1) Cornell's location. There are varying opinions on Ithaca and it being a good place to study or not. I fall in the camp that Ithaca was pretty awesome and is an excellent place to study. (2) Cornell's student body. The group tends to be a bit younger compared to some other t14. This, anecedotally, helps shape the atmosphere of the 1L class. In addition, there is indeed an isolating factor about Ithaca (compared to, say, NYC) whereby the attributes of the class are amplified. I'm not just talking out of my ass but a few current 1Ls have PM'd me saying the same thing. (3) Your career goals. Cornell is a NYC big law feeder. It is comparatively difficult to get many resources from the school or find like-minded individuals who don't want NYC big law. If you're in this camp who wants NYC big law, then great. If not, maybe you'd do better at somewhere like NYU that tends to have a broader class in terms of employment interests. That is not to say that PILU or CALSA or whatever don't do a good job in bringing like-minded individuals together - but they can't be as good as NYU for PI or places like Berk or Stanford for CA west coast.

Those are just some thoughts. Congrats on your acceptance and future money, though! Cornell is an excellent school and a great place to study - just maybe not for everyone. Using big firm % and clerkship % should not be the only consideration in choosing to spend three years somewhere, really.

I agree with all of this, including that for me, personally, Cornell was a fantastic place to go to school. In fact, it might have been the best three years of my life. And I'm saying that both being at the older end of my class and having lived in both of the other regions mentioned by toothbrush. It's not for everyone, but for me it was great.

[bobbybird]

I really appreciate the guidance. Those aren't my only criteria, and honestly it felt a little dumb to base my original post solely around those numbers (thus the 'poindexter' comment) but I wanted to get a feel for those things before I go into considering a lot of the other stuff. I know Ithaca is very isolated and can get very cold, and I have plans to visit the campus and speak to other grads so I can be as informed as I can be if I decide to go there.

About transferring to NYU, I have a feeling those minor difference in %'s for those categories pale in comparison to the location aspect, on top of everything you said, toothbrush. I've heard about NYU students casually having lunch with biglaw associates in between classes, which is a benefit that you can't really quantify but is probably worth any perceived drop in %'s.

[Lincoln]

I really appreciate the guidance. Those aren't my only criteria, and honestly it felt a little dumb to base my original post solely around those numbers (thus the 'poindexter' comment) but I wanted to get a feel for those things before I go into considering a lot of the other stuff. I know Ithaca is very isolated and can get very cold, and I have plans to visit the campus and speak to other grads so I can be as informed as I can be if I decide to go there.

About transferring to NYU, I have a feeling those minor difference in %'s for those categories pale in comparison to the location aspect, on top of everything you said, toothbrush. I've heard about NYU students casually having lunch with biglaw associates in between classes, which is a benefit that you can't really quantify but is probably worth any perceived drop in %'s.

As a BigLaw associate, I fail to see how anyone would benefit from having lunch with me except to the extent that person decides, as a result of our lunch, not to do BigLaw. And besides, you can have lunch with me when visiting form Cornell, anyway. I've helped out plenty of Cornellians who weren't around to be a free meal ticket for me.

[bobbybird]

I really appreciate the guidance. Those aren't my only criteria, and honestly it felt a little dumb to base my original post solely around those numbers (thus the 'poindexter' comment) but I wanted to get a feel for those things before I go into considering a lot of the other stuff. I know Ithaca is very isolated and can get very cold, and I have plans to visit the campus and speak to other grads so I can be as informed as I can be if I decide to go there.

About transferring to NYU, I have a feeling those minor difference in %'s for those categories pale in comparison to the location aspect, on top of everything you said, toothbrush. I've heard about NYU students casually having lunch with biglaw associates in between classes, which is a benefit that you can't really quantify but is probably worth any perceived drop in %'s.

As a BigLaw associate, I fail to see how anyone would benefit from having lunch with me except to the extent that person decides, as a result of our lunch, not to do BigLaw. And besides, you can have lunch with me when visiting form Cornell, anyway. I've helped out plenty of Cornellians who weren't around to be a free meal ticket for me.

Lol, fair point. I had heard that there is potential to create a relationship that one could leverage when looking for full-time work, but I can't argue with first-hand experience from the other side.