Mediocre Grades and Yet Got the Firm Job I Wanted, AMA Forum

[xspider]

I was going to post screenshots, but apparently you can't do that! I had a different username when I applied to schools, but I'll post some choice quotes:

"Dude do a MAcc. Become an accountant. Those schools at those prices is a loser's bet bro. Your crappy UG degree is not a reason to go to law school."

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

What do you think separated you from the majority of your classmates with similar grades who did not get this type of outcome?

Maybe networking? I was able to meet one of the partners at the firm and we clicked. I started off my job as an unpaid law intern with, basically, no thoughts of a full time position, then they upgraded me to a paid law "clerk" (they changed the title, for God knows what reason), and then they finally offered me the job because another associate decided to leave the firm to become a talent manager.

My point, in general, is that this place is filled with a lot of gunners who go out of their way to shit on people. I didn't want to do big law, so I probably had a different mindset than a lot of people here, but I was able to get a job in the exact field that I want to work in, at a good salary, in the City I want to live in, working with insanely huge clients. If I listened to TLS Forum back in 2013, who the hell knows where I'd be.

Here's the thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... c#p6591442

People primarily focused on the too much debt thing (and at the risk of this turning into a johann callout thread, you did get into too much debt and at least right now you can't service it), the loving law thing (which seems silly when people say they are passionate about "property" and you snagging the job is not necessarily a win yet until you actually know that you really do like being a lawyer), and the losing bet thing (which, even if you do win on a bad bet doesn't mean the bet was a good one to take. Advice here can only consider expected outcomes, people can't predict the future).

I'm not trying to begrudge your success at all, good for you (seriously). But stop beating up on this "T14 or bust" straw man. It's already been burnt to the ground. What you and that spiderman dude are complaining about is complete and utter nonsense. Just because you have weird hangups or struggle with reading comprehension or whatever the issue is doesn't mean you need to take your frustration out on TLS.

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

[mrsnrub]

I was going to post screenshots, but apparently you can't do that! I had a different username when I applied to schools, but I'll post some choice quotes:

"Dude do a MAcc. Become an accountant. Those schools at those prices is a loser's bet bro. Your crappy UG degree is not a reason to go to law school."

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

What do you think separated you from the majority of your classmates with similar grades who did not get this type of outcome?

Maybe networking? I was able to meet one of the partners at the firm and we clicked. I started off my job as an unpaid law intern with, basically, no thoughts of a full time position, then they upgraded me to a paid law "clerk" (they changed the title, for God knows what reason), and then they finally offered me the job because another associate decided to leave the firm to become a talent manager.

My point, in general, is that this place is filled with a lot of gunners who go out of their way to shit on people. I didn't want to do big law, so I probably had a different mindset than a lot of people here, but I was able to get a job in the exact field that I want to work in, at a good salary, in the City I want to live in, working with insanely huge clients. If I listened to TLS Forum back in 2013, who the hell knows where I'd be.

Here's the thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... c#p6591442

People primarily focused on the too much debt thing (and at the risk of this turning into a johann callout thread, you did get into too much debt and at least right now you can't service it), the loving law thing (which seems silly when people say they are passionate about "property" and you snagging the job is not necessarily a win yet until you actually know that you really do like being a lawyer), and the losing bet thing (which, even if you do win on a bad bet doesn't mean the bet was a good one to take. Advice here can only consider expected outcomes, people can't predict the future).

I'm not trying to begrudge your success at all, good for you (seriously). But stop beating up on this "T14 or bust" straw man. It's already been burnt to the ground. What you and that spiderman dude are complaining about is complete and utter nonsense. Just because you have weird hangups or struggle with reading comprehension or whatever the issue is doesn't mean you need to take your frustration out on TLS.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

[BigZuck]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

[mrsnrub]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

You really want me to go back and find every post from 2011-2013 where people were like "the sky is falling, if you don't get a 175 on your LSAT or go to a t14 with scholarship, you're going to end up living in a box?" That seems like a waste of time.

[BigZuck]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

You really want me to go back and find every post from 2011-2013 where people were like "the sky is falling, if you don't get a 175 on your LSAT or go to a t14 with scholarship, you're going to end up living in a box?" That seems like a waste of time.

I'd probably be satisfied with 1, I would be over the moon happy with 2.

We can expand the parameters to beyond 2011-2013, literally just 1 post on this site from 2011-2016 expressing that sentiment would be great.

Please give me one example. Back up what you're saying.

[rpupkin]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

You really want me to go back and find every post from 2011-2013 where people were like "the sky is falling, if you don't get a 175 on your LSAT or go to a t14 with scholarship, you're going to end up living in a box?" That seems like a waste of time.

The real "waste of time" here is you railing against a straw man.

Even if your description of the TLS hivemind advice were accurate (which it is not), your anecdote doesn't disprove it. I know someone who went to a TTT law school who has a market-paying big law job in San Francisco. I had know a different person that went to a TTTT law school who now works in DOJ. Not everyone who goes to a lower-ranked school at sticker ends up with a bad outcome, just like not everyone who goes to a T14 with a full ride ends up with a good outcome. When people give advice to 0Ls, it's based on likely outcomes. How could it be otherwise?

[mathis1490]

ex ante/ex post, brej

[xspider]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

The informal "slang" term is called "subtweeting" it refers to when you make an unappreciated comment about someone but do not inform them of your comment. Some would call it cowardly, I am not going that far. I just wanted you to quote me if you're going to say I have IQ deficiencies so I could know you're voicing a displeasure about me.

Does that make sense?

[kcdc1]

op - between this and the other thread, theres probably enough information that a reader (e.g., colleague) could identify you. just fyi.

[BigZuck]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

The informal "slang" term is called "subtweeting" it refers to when you make an unappreciated comment about someone but do not inform them of your comment. Some would call it cowardly, I am not going that far. I just wanted you to quote me if you're going to say I have IQ deficiencies so I could know you're voicing a displeasure about me.

Does that make sense?

No, that's weird and I'm not going to do that

I'm also not sure what IQ deficiencies are but whatever they are I don't think I was saying you had them. I'm not sure what drives you. Hell, you could just love a good logical fallacy as far as I know.

[xspider]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

The informal "slang" term is called "subtweeting" it refers to when you make an unappreciated comment about someone but do not inform them of your comment. Some would call it cowardly, I am not going that far. I just wanted you to quote me if you're going to say I have IQ deficiencies so I could know you're voicing a displeasure about me.

Does that make sense?

No, that's weird and I'm not going to do that

I'm also not sure what IQ deficiencies are but whatever they are I don't think I was saying you had them. I'm not sure what drives you. Hell, you could just love a good logical fallacy as far as I know.

Wait, it is weird for someone to ask you to let them know if they have an IQ deficiency (as you stated, a lack of reading comprehension). But it is not weird to mention something like this behind someone's back?

Okay, you got it Zuck. I cannot keep up with that logic, you're right. Have a good day.

[kcdc1]

Since above is gone, we can talk freely behind his back again. That was a weird interaction, right?

[lavarman84]

OP, I'm glad that law school worked out for you and it sounds like you have a great job. Congrats!

There are some elitist asshats here. No doubt.

However, people weren't really giving bad advice. As a quick summary of my "story," I decided at the very last minute my senior year that going to LS would be a good idea because I didn't know what I was going to do after graduation. I took the LSAT without studying and got a pretty meh score. I didn't even know what the top 14 law schools were or that it was a thing. I got into my state's flagship and attended there. It's a T1 school. Luckily, I am very very good at law school. I just finished my 2L year and already have a federal clerkship lined up after graduation. I am SAing at a biglaw firm that I like. Law school worked out for me in a major way. I don't even have to work in biglaw if I don't want to because of the networking I've done.

However, I would be an asshole if I told people to do what I did. I was very fortunate that things panned out the way they did.

Basically, OP, it's good that things worked out for you but this site can only give general advice on what a sound plan for law school is. Your plan for law school wasn't a terrible one. Neither was mine. But they weren't sound plans either. Things worked out for us...but it's possible they could have gone another direction.

[jchiles]

Wait so is IBR/PAYE a bad thing now? I thought we were all about taking advantage of those programs here?

[mrsnrub]

OP, I'm glad that law school worked out for you and it sounds like you have a great job. Congrats!

There are some elitist asshats here. No doubt.

However, people weren't really giving bad advice. As a quick summary of my "story," I decided at the very last minute my senior year that going to LS would be a good idea because I didn't know what I was going to do after graduation. I took the LSAT without studying and got a pretty meh score. I didn't even know what the top 14 law schools were or that it was a thing. I got into my state's flagship and attended there. It's a T1 school. Luckily, I am very very good at law school. I just finished my 2L year and already have a federal clerkship lined up after graduation. I am SAing at a biglaw firm that I like. Law school worked out for me in a major way. I don't even have to work in biglaw if I don't want to because of the networking I've done.

However, I would be an asshole if I told people to do what I did. I was very fortunate that things panned out the way they did.

Basically, OP, it's good that things worked out for you but this site can only give general advice on what a sound plan for law school is. Your plan for law school wasn't a terrible one. Neither was mine. But they weren't sound plans either. Things worked out for us...but it's possible they could have gone another direction.

I agree. I say that I'm the luckiest person on the planet every day of my life because I get to start my career a pretty weird field. The point of this post was to let people who are thinking of going to law school, but don't have a 4.0/175, know that this type of thing can happen and don't let some overzealous people here make you rethink your entire life plan. Who the hell knows what I'd be if I would have listened to this site. How it got off the rails, I don't know, but I hope everyone who posted finds success, whether they're in school now or not. Congrats on all of that, sounds like you have big things ahead of you.

[mrsnrub]

Wait so is IBR/PAYE a bad thing now? I thought we were all about taking advantage of those programs here?

Why anyone wouldn't take advantage of those programs is beyond my grasp. I can pay it off in another way, but why would I do that? I often joke that I'm banking on the government cancelling all student loan debt by the time 30 years rolls around because the economy is going to shit the bed because of the system we've developed.

[rpupkin]

OP, I'm glad that law school worked out for you and it sounds like you have a great job. Congrats!

There are some elitist asshats here. No doubt.

However, people weren't really giving bad advice. As a quick summary of my "story," I decided at the very last minute my senior year that going to LS would be a good idea because I didn't know what I was going to do after graduation. I took the LSAT without studying and got a pretty meh score. I didn't even know what the top 14 law schools were or that it was a thing. I got into my state's flagship and attended there. It's a T1 school. Luckily, I am very very good at law school. I just finished my 2L year and already have a federal clerkship lined up after graduation. I am SAing at a biglaw firm that I like. Law school worked out for me in a major way. I don't even have to work in biglaw if I don't want to because of the networking I've done.

However, I would be an asshole if I told people to do what I did. I was very fortunate that things panned out the way they did.

Basically, OP, it's good that things worked out for you but this site can only give general advice on what a sound plan for law school is. Your plan for law school wasn't a terrible one. Neither was mine. But they weren't sound plans either. Things worked out for us...but it's possible they could have gone another direction.

I agree. I say that I'm the luckiest person on the planet every day of my life because I get to start my career a pretty weird field. The point of this post was to let people who are thinking of going to law school, but don't have a 4.0/175, know that this type of thing can happen and don't let some overzealous people here make you rethink your entire life plan. Who the hell knows what I'd be if I would have listened to this site. How it got off the rails, I don't know, but I hope everyone who posted finds success, whether they're in school now or not. Congrats on all of that, sounds like you have big things ahead of you.

This sentiment ("If I can do it, so can you! Follow your dreams!!") is precisely why the TLS hivemind is so valuable. It's a counterweight to destructive advice.

[cavalier1138]

Wait so is IBR/PAYE a bad thing now? I thought we were all about taking advantage of those programs here?

When people talk about taking advantage of those, does the phrase "tax bomb" ever get thrown out?

IBR/PAYE is a fantastic option if you're going into a PSLF-eligible job (in which case, debt is fairly irrelevant), or if you plan on spending the next 30 years never having assets that exceed your liabilities.

[mrsnrub]

OP, I'm glad that law school worked out for you and it sounds like you have a great job. Congrats!

There are some elitist asshats here. No doubt.

However, people weren't really giving bad advice. As a quick summary of my "story," I decided at the very last minute my senior year that going to LS would be a good idea because I didn't know what I was going to do after graduation. I took the LSAT without studying and got a pretty meh score. I didn't even know what the top 14 law schools were or that it was a thing. I got into my state's flagship and attended there. It's a T1 school. Luckily, I am very very good at law school. I just finished my 2L year and already have a federal clerkship lined up after graduation. I am SAing at a biglaw firm that I like. Law school worked out for me in a major way. I don't even have to work in biglaw if I don't want to because of the networking I've done.

However, I would be an asshole if I told people to do what I did. I was very fortunate that things panned out the way they did.

Basically, OP, it's good that things worked out for you but this site can only give general advice on what a sound plan for law school is. Your plan for law school wasn't a terrible one. Neither was mine. But they weren't sound plans either. Things worked out for us...but it's possible they could have gone another direction.

I agree. I say that I'm the luckiest person on the planet every day of my life because I get to start my career a pretty weird field. The point of this post was to let people who are thinking of going to law school, but don't have a 4.0/175, know that this type of thing can happen and don't let some overzealous people here make you rethink your entire life plan. Who the hell knows what I'd be if I would have listened to this site. How it got off the rails, I don't know, but I hope everyone who posted finds success, whether they're in school now or not. Congrats on all of that, sounds like you have big things ahead of you.

This sentiment ("If I can do it, so can you! Follow your dreams!!") is precisely why the TLS hivemind is so valuable. It's a counterweight to destructive advice.

Yeah, I definitely don't believe that. I'm not a particularly optimistic person, but I think this place can be overly pessimistic, which is just as destructive. I've wondered if it was trying to cull the herd, but that's practically a conspiracy theory on my part. Look at a "Should I Drop Out" thread and it's like "your first semester you have a 3.1, drop all of your goals and find some other job because you're going to find yourself in a box."

[mrsnrub]

Wait so is IBR/PAYE a bad thing now? I thought we were all about taking advantage of those programs here?

When people talk about taking advantage of those, does the phrase "tax bomb" ever get thrown out?

IBR/PAYE is a fantastic option if you're going into a PSLF-eligible job (in which case, debt is fairly irrelevant), or if you plan on spending the next 30 years never having assets that exceed your liabilities.

If you're still paying only 10% of your income after 30 years and still haven't paid off the loan, the tax liability on the forgiveness plus whatever you paid for 30 years would likely be less than what your loan + interest would end up costing you.

[jchiles]

Wait so is IBR/PAYE a bad thing now? I thought we were all about taking advantage of those programs here?

When people talk about taking advantage of those, does the phrase "tax bomb" ever get thrown out?

IBR/PAYE is a fantastic option if you're going into a PSLF-eligible job (in which case, debt is fairly irrelevant), or if you plan on spending the next 30 years never having assets that exceed your liabilities.

Yeah there are a couple threads discussing the tax bomb and student loan repayment in depth.

[lavarman84]

I agree. I say that I'm the luckiest person on the planet every day of my life because I get to start my career a pretty weird field. The point of this post was to let people who are thinking of going to law school, but don't have a 4.0/175, know that this type of thing can happen and don't let some overzealous people here make you rethink your entire life plan. Who the hell knows what I'd be if I would have listened to this site. How it got off the rails, I don't know, but I hope everyone who posted finds success, whether they're in school now or not. Congrats on all of that, sounds like you have big things ahead of you.

I don't feel like someone who felt it was their life plan would let anyone talk them out of it. TLS is great for the people who are unsure. If you're sure you want to go to LS, no real reason to come here and ask whether or not to attend.

Thanks for the kind words! I hope so.

I don't want to minimize optimism. I think it's a good thing. Success stories are always good. I just think that not to attend is good advice for some people. Especially those who are on the fence and don't have a low-risk option.

Yeah, I definitely don't believe that. I'm not a particularly optimistic person, but I think this place can be overly pessimistic, which is just as destructive. I've wondered if it was trying to cull the herd, but that's practically a conspiracy theory on my part. Look at a "Should I Drop Out" thread and it's like "your first semester you have a 3.1, drop all of your goals and find some other job because you're going to find yourself in a box."

Going back to the same point, I wouldn't expect the people who truly want it to be here asking, "Should I drop out?" So yea, I think it's solid advice to tell those who are unsure or feel like they don't want to be a lawyer that it's not worth sticking it out after a bad start. Those who really want it are going to ignore the advice or won't ask. Those who are truly unsure might be better off dropping out. A lot of people go into LS with their eyes closed. I know I did. It's probably better for some of these people to cut their losses.

[BigZuck]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

You really want me to go back and find every post from 2011-2013 where people were like "the sky is falling, if you don't get a 175 on your LSAT or go to a t14 with scholarship, you're going to end up living in a box?" That seems like a waste of time.

I'd probably be satisfied with 1, I would be over the moon happy with 2.

We can expand the parameters to beyond 2011-2013, literally just 1 post on this site from 2011-2016 expressing that sentiment would be great.

Please give me one example. Back up what you're saying.

Seriously dude, you started an entire thread because of this sentiment and you said you saw it all the time and yet you can't link to a single post that embodies it

This is so, so, so, so, so tiresome. People complain about this stuff all the time and they never back up what they're saying with even a shred of evidence. I've asked like 20 different posters to link to one thread conveying what they are complaining about and no one has ever done it. Not a single one. If it was so prevalent you could come up with a single example easily. But you can't, because you either aren't comprehending what you're reading, or you're a liar with a weird axe to grind.

Stop being such a silly goose.

[mrsnrub]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

You really want me to go back and find every post from 2011-2013 where people were like "the sky is falling, if you don't get a 175 on your LSAT or go to a t14 with scholarship, you're going to end up living in a box?" That seems like a waste of time.

I'd probably be satisfied with 1, I would be over the moon happy with 2.

We can expand the parameters to beyond 2011-2013, literally just 1 post on this site from 2011-2016 expressing that sentiment would be great.

Please give me one example. Back up what you're saying.

Seriously dude, you started an entire thread because of this sentiment and you said you saw it all the time and yet you can't link to a single post that embodies it

This is so, so, so, so, so tiresome. People complain about this stuff all the time and they never back up what they're saying with even a shred of evidence. I've asked like 20 different posters to link to one thread conveying what they are complaining about and no one has ever done it. Not a single one. If it was so prevalent you could come up with a single example easily. But you can't, because you either aren't comprehending what you're reading, or you're a liar with a weird axe to grind.

Stop being such a silly goose.

I wanted to get mad cause you called me a liar, but then you used silly goose and I can't stay mad at you. I didn't look for an example, if I'm being honest. I would, but that's going to be a lot of work.

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you are going to try and say I have some weird hang-up and reading comprehension failure, at least be bold enough to attach me in the comment as your words would portray you to be.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted me to do here.

Has it been burnt to the ground? I stopped going on here first semester 1L year because it was giving me agita. When I was active on the site, it was basically all anyone talked about.

Prove it.

The informal "slang" term is called "subtweeting" it refers to when you make an unappreciated comment about someone but do not inform them of your comment. Some would call it cowardly, I am not going that far. I just wanted you to quote me if you're going to say I have IQ deficiencies so I could know you're voicing a displeasure about me.

Does that make sense?

No, that's weird and I'm not going to do that

I'm also not sure what IQ deficiencies are but whatever they are I don't think I was saying you had them. I'm not sure what drives you. Hell, you could just love a good logical fallacy as far as I know.

Wait, it is weird for someone to ask you to let them know if they have an IQ deficiency (as you stated, a lack of reading comprehension). But it is not weird to mention something like this behind someone's back?

Okay, you got it Zuck. I cannot keep up with that logic, you're right. Have a good day.

How is he talking about you behind your back in your very own thread?